Hello fellow PDA Squeak hackers-
I get a lot of questions about what to get for Squeak PDA hacking.
If you're in the market for a Squeak PDA, but don't want to spend much, your best bet is probably the new Dell Axim X3. The cheapest model is $229, and includes some decent hardware, including a 300-400 XScale PXA255 and a 200 MHz bus (the Zaurus line has a 100 MHz bus, older iPAQs of the 31xx and 36xx series 30 MHz, IIRC). I've not done any benchmarking, but if anyone is up to it, I'd be interested in the information.
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/brand/axim_x3?c=us&...
On the high end-
Today, Toshiba released a new PDA- a PocketPC with a 640x480 screen. Like the Zaurus, but without the keyboard and running WinCE instead of Linux. Both factors can be seen as a positive or a negative, depending on what your needs and persuasions, but considering that it takes all kinds, there may be a person with oodles of money to blow on some really nice hardware on which to run Squeak. Built-in wifi even. $599 for this model.
The Toshiba PocketPC e800: http://www.brighthand.com/article/RumorMill_Toshiba_e805_e405_Later_Today?si...
Also of mention is the Sigmarion III. It's a Japanese-only number like the Zaurus, but unlike the Zaurus its UI language can not be entirely changed to english, though a lot can. This puppy similar specs to the Zaurus C760, but with a couple differences- it runs WinCE, it has a *real* touch typable keyboard, it has a 800x480 screen with a lower DPI (a good thig; a physically bigger screen), and a USB host. The SigIII, along with a VGA CF card (like the Voyager, capable of up to 1024x768), external monitor, and a USB mouse could be "converted" into a desktop machine for when you're at home or the office. The SigIII goes for $525 (at conics) and up. (same product, different importers)
http://conics.net/shp/pda/sigmarion3/
While not new, it's still worth mentioning the Zaurus C760 as a very worthy Squeak machine. It runs Squeak like a champ.
Also, if anyone has a PDA and feel like donating some values, I have a *very* simple benchmarking app in Squeak up at:
http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/bench.zip
It spits out two numbers, a processed #tinyBenchmarks. It's a subset of the nicer and more generalized benchmarking app I wrote ( http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/squeak/bencher.jpg ), but for folks who don't want to spend much time it gets the job done.
Any other questions? Feel free to ask me on the list or via a private email, or better yet- on IRC in the Squeak channel on freenode. That's #squeak on irc.freenode.net; I go by "rev," or sometimes a derivation of that like rev|work or rev|school.
Regards, Aaron
-- "civilization is a limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities." :: mark twain
Thanks, Aaron!
Incidentally, the Pocket Smalltalk project (www.pocketsmalltalk.com) is still seeing occasional flickers of activity and would benefit greatly from the efforts of any on this list with an interest in using Squeak / Smalltalk with PDAs built around PalmOS.
Gary
----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron J Reichow" reic0024@d.umn.edu To: "squeak list" squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:55 AM Subject: Squeak PDA hardware: getting better and better!
Hello fellow PDA Squeak hackers-
I get a lot of questions about what to get for Squeak PDA hacking.
Aaron,
If you're in the market for a Squeak PDA, but don't want to spend much, your best bet is probably the new Dell Axim X3. The cheapest model is $229, and includes some decent hardware, including a 300-400 XScale PXA255 and a 200 MHz bus (the Zaurus line has a 100 MHz bus, older iPAQs of the 31xx and 36xx series 30 MHz, IIRC). I've not done any benchmarking, but if anyone is up to it, I'd be interested in the information.
Zaurus SL-C700 has 100MHz bus, but the later versions, C750 and C760 have 200MHz bus. IIRC, the 36xx series have 103MHz bus. (Yes, I remember that memory bus for PXA 250's are slower than StrongArm's.)
Today, Toshiba released a new PDA- a PocketPC with a 640x480 screen. Like the Zaurus, but without the keyboard and running WinCE instead of Linux. Both factors can be seen as a positive or a negative, depending on what your needs and persuasions, but considering that it takes all kinds, there may be a person with oodles of money to blow on some really nice hardware on which to run Squeak. Built-in wifi even. $599 for this model.
The Toshiba PocketPC e800: http://www.brighthand.com/article/RumorMill_Toshiba_e805_e405_Later_Today?si...
Yup. This looks interesting, indeed. I don't know any other models that uses PXA 263...
Also, if anyone has a PDA and feel like donating some values, I have a *very* simple benchmarking app in Squeak up at:
http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/bench.zip
It spits out two numbers, a processed #tinyBenchmarks. It's a subset of the nicer and more generalized benchmarking app I wrote ( http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/squeak/bencher.jpg ), but for folks who don't want to spend much time it gets the job done.
Good. Would you mind to include the screen update benchmark?
Thank you for this update!
-- Yoshiki
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
Zaurus SL-C700 has 100MHz bus, but the later versions, C750 and C760 have 200MHz bus. IIRC, the 36xx series have 103MHz bus. (Yes, I remember that memory bus for PXA 250's are slower than StrongArm's.)
Ah, OK. Good to know. My information certainly wasn't the most concrete with the older bus numbers, thanks for setting me straight. :)
If the 36xx have a bus speed of 103 MHz, I wonder again why there was such a huge leap in performance between a WinCE-based iPAQ 3650 and a Linux Zaurus SL-5500. From other information (e.g. Linux on the same iPAQ) it isn't because Linux is any more efficient. I'd chalked it up to bus speed.
Sure enough, the iPAQ 36xx do have a 103 MHz bus. Oh well, destined to be a mystery for the ages I suppose.
Yup. This looks interesting, indeed. I don't know any other models that uses PXA 263...
There are a couple others, including the new Dell Axim X3. Performance should be pretty comparable to the PXA 255, but with certain perephrials like flash on the chip itself.
info: http://www.intel.com/design/pca/3pda.htm
Good. Would you mind to include the screen update benchmark?
Not a problem. I will make available my much more comprehensive benching image. This bench.zip I whipped up quicky for one certain application and user- a fellow I know has a Sig3 and I can't wait to srr what kind of numbers it spits out.
Regards, Aaron
-- "civilization is a limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities." :: mark twain
Hi Guys
Having seen this discussion on Squeak on PDAs, I am interested to know whether there is anything for Palms ?
Vincent On Nov 01, 2003, at 09:20, Aaron J Reichow wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
Zaurus SL-C700 has 100MHz bus, but the later versions, C750 and C760 have 200MHz bus. IIRC, the 36xx series have 103MHz bus. (Yes, I remember that memory bus for PXA 250's are slower than StrongArm's.)
Ah, OK. Good to know. My information certainly wasn't the most concrete with the older bus numbers, thanks for setting me straight. :)
If the 36xx have a bus speed of 103 MHz, I wonder again why there was such a huge leap in performance between a WinCE-based iPAQ 3650 and a Linux Zaurus SL-5500. From other information (e.g. Linux on the same iPAQ) it isn't because Linux is any more efficient. I'd chalked it up to bus speed.
Sure enough, the iPAQ 36xx do have a 103 MHz bus. Oh well, destined to be a mystery for the ages I suppose.
Yup. This looks interesting, indeed. I don't know any other models that uses PXA 263...
There are a couple others, including the new Dell Axim X3. Performance should be pretty comparable to the PXA 255, but with certain perephrials like flash on the chip itself.
info: http://www.intel.com/design/pca/3pda.htm
Good. Would you mind to include the screen update benchmark?
Not a problem. I will make available my much more comprehensive benching image. This bench.zip I whipped up quicky for one certain application and user- a fellow I know has a Sig3 and I can't wait to srr what kind of numbers it spits out.
Regards, Aaron
-- "civilization is a limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities." :: mark twain
On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Vincent Coetzee wrote:
Having seen this discussion on Squeak on PDAs, I am interested to know whether there is anything for Palms ?
Not as of yet. I'm not sure if anyone has given it an honest try, but under current and older (PalmOS 1 - 5.2.x) versions of the PalmOS make such a thing so hard as to make it not worth anyone's while. In all but the newest POS version, you could only allocate memory in 32KB chunks, though with POS 5.2.1, that is up to 64KB. In any event, definately not enough to fit even the most majorly-shrunk image. :)
Someone could write a VM for the PalmOS that allocated
(imageSize roundUpTo: (2 raisedTo: 15)) / (2 raisedTo: 15)
chunks of RAM, cut the image into that many 32KB pieces, put them into their slots, and keep track of it all- but I'm guessing it'd be a lot more work than its worth and would end up pretty darned slow. Why invest so many hours developing such a beast when you could spend $200 on a pretty capable PocketPC or even an older Zaurus 5500? The latter may be crappy in pretty much every way, but it does run Squeak at a decent speed.
With POS 6 it should be possible without such shenanigans. I would expect a POS port to pop up less than a month after a decent device with POS 6 is out, and someone here has one. I've considered writing various POS device makers asking for a Palm model that would be upgradable to POS 6, so that when it does come out, I could do the Squeak port, but haven't for a couple reasons: 1) who the heck would I send it to? Sony and Palm are pretty big companies; 2) I'm probably the best person to do the port, but I would be willing to give it my all; 3) I'm afraid of having my request laughed at. In any event, I may attempt it anyway, perhaps giving the unit to someone on the list willing to do the port.
When the time comes though, for a POS port, I imagine the new Tapwave Zodiac may be the best bet, provided it can be flash upgraded to POS 6, a fact of which I'm not sure. It has a fast CPU and most importantly, a fast 2D graphics accelerator by ATI that's intended for games, but could make a good display medium for Squeak.
Regards, Aaron
-- "truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies." :: r. w. emerson
Aaron J Reichow reic0024@d.umn.edu writes:
out, and someone here has one. I've considered writing various POS device makers asking for a Palm model that would be upgradable to POS 6, so that
Did you sign up for the PalmOS developer program?
couple reasons: 1) who the heck would I send it to? Sony and Palm
Ask some of the folks who make Palm websites, e.g. Geek.com, or The-Gadgeteer.com. They probably know someone personally at PalmOne, likely a marketing person but they should be able to refer you to someone who can help. You should mention that Squeak runs fine on PocketPCs and you want to make sure PalmOS is not left behind. It's probably a good idea to talk about how popular Squeak is, large and growing community, Open Source, rapid development, and why it's very good for PalmOS to have a SqueakVM available. IIRC there's a company using Squeak for manufacturing, and/or scheduling apps -- looks like their customers could be possibly interested in buying lots of PalmOS-PDAs ;-)
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Aaron J Reichow -
Gary Fisher -
Nils Kassube -
Vincent Coetzee -
Yoshiki Ohshima