Jecel Assumpcao Jr escreveu:
(...) In fact, we can generalize this and of nearly all objections that were pointed out there is some Smalltalk to which it doesn't apply. Now it might be that only a perfect Smalltalk to which none of the objections apply could have succeeded, but I think what we have here is a case of
About that I have an interesting anedocte: in 1998 I was working for the "Department of Education of São Paulo State" (SEESP) under UNDP contract. There, people were having hard times trying to implement a system for the management of schools. That system would feed other systems at the "Department" so the person in charge ("Secretary of Education") would have real time data about schools (including student performance, teachers performance, etc). The problem itself is simple and, from the tech point of view, the system should not be complicated.
So, where was the trouble? Easy: the "Department" board kept issuing incredible specifications for the system. So, it was not enough that the goals were achieved, but the system should be "up to date with the best in the world" (what the hell did that meant????!!!!). In short: some people didn't want any system controlling their lack of competence and bombed the initiative through rejecting specifications and issuing over and over more complex and unintelligible ones.
Years later an auditing consultant observed that the best way of keeping the status quo is always demanding the excellent even when you don't have the satisfactory.
Smalltalk had higher upfront costs than the alternatives, but scaled much better. When I pointed out Self (Sun's own version of Smalltalk) to people in the mid 1990s they would reply "but you need a 24MB Sun machine to run that! Practically all deployed workstations only have 8MB and Java works just fine there." I would claim that this was only because Java wasn't doing anything yet (animating a funny little man) and that by the time it did half of what Self did it would be twice as large. It turned out that I was actually generous to Java, but when my prediction came true typical PCs had 256MB each.
Not to mention that Sun not only killed Self but did the same to SpringOS... :( Now they face the reality of selling mostly Intel servers running RedHat Linux...
But to understand what happened to Smalltalk you must look at the history more than at technical aspects. I don't know a good text I can link to, but Eliot spent some time on this in his AoSTA talk -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8988857822906068209
-- Jecel
Thnx Jecel for both the reading and the video !!!
Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote:
[interesting story deleted to save space]
Years later an auditing consultant observed that the best way of keeping the status quo is always demanding the excellent even when you don't have the satisfactory.
I have been involed in the opposite situation - a teacher was specifying a Smalltalk educational software I was hired to write and she hated that the children wanted to play with computers instead of do the assignments in the workbooks ("but they are so cute and educational!!"). So she didn't allow me to let the computer do anything that couldn't also be done on paper. The computer couldn't tell the students whether their answers were right or wrong (not even give hints) but instead the teacher would come along later and grade the assignment.
So you can either spec something so perfect it will never be built or something that is just an awkward version of the status quo so people won't see the point of it.
[Self and Java]
Not to mention that Sun not only killed Self but did the same to SpringOS... :( Now they face the reality of selling mostly Intel servers running RedHat Linux...
Very true, but I can't blame Sun too much for this. Their customers had suffered greatly in the transition from SunOS to Solaris and now Sun was talking about yet another change in the future? So they felt they had to kill SpringOS and yell "Solaris forever!" just to keep their clients from moving to their competitors. They also tried to kill TCL (they had previously spun it out and then brought it back in) too, so it was just their style at the time :-)
-- Jecel
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