This is a very ancient bug and I think I submit this fix earlier. But as I can't found on mantis and still all images have it, I resend again. Yes I know mantis. Yes I do the required steps. But I think I do all this before and still the bug is alive. Sorry If I upset someone.
Edgar
Edgar,
Thank you for posting this on the Mantis database. When you do that you do not need to also report the issue to the list. When you do so that requires us to take the time to close the issue on BFAV so we don't duplicate it. However I can understand that you might want to send an email to the list to bring attention to the issue. When you do that though please leave off the special tags ([BUG], [FIX], [ENH]) so that the BFAV server ignores the message and then we don't end up with the duplicate.
As far as your previous report goes it is still in BFAV and was reported in January. The janitors did not begin catching new issues until March and we have not yet started moving older issues.
Thanks!
Ken Causey
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 10:33 -0300, Lic. Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
This is a very ancient bug and I think I submit this fix earlier. But as I can't found on mantis and still all images have it, I resend again. Yes I know mantis. Yes I do the required steps. But I think I do all this before and still the bug is alive. Sorry If I upset someone.
Edgar
Hi Ken,
I've seen a lot of this mails, and I am not criticizing, but I always wondered.... Why don't you just shutdown the BFAV server? or at least the part of it that scan and parse the mailing list ?
Regards, Hernán
Ken Causey wrote:
Edgar,
Thank you for posting this on the Mantis database. When you do that you do not need to also report the issue to the list. When you do so that requires us to take the time to close the issue on BFAV so we don't duplicate it. However I can understand that you might want to send an email to the list to bring attention to the issue. When you do that though please leave off the special tags ([BUG], [FIX], [ENH]) so that the BFAV server ignores the message and then we don't end up with the duplicate.
As far as your previous report goes it is still in BFAV and was reported in January. The janitors did not begin catching new issues until March and we have not yet started moving older issues.
Thanks!
Ken Causey
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 10:33 -0300, Lic. Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
This is a very ancient bug and I think I submit this fix earlier. But as I can't found on mantis and still all images have it, I resend again. Yes I know mantis. Yes I do the required steps. But I think I do all this before and still the bug is alive. Sorry If I upset someone.
Edgar
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Primarily because we janitors are human and the BFAV database serves for now as a useful backup to help us keep track of what issues we have and have not properly handled. If we miss one then it is very easy to catch by looking in BFAV. Secondarily, there are still issues in BFAV that should be handled in the old way. To do that harvesters need to be able to close the issue, mark them as approved, mark them as being in an update etc. All this relies on BFAV being able to receive new reports by email.
However there may come a time in the not too distant future when I can shut down the monitoring of the squeak-dev list and just monitor the behind the scenes squeak-harvesting list. However I don't think we are quite ready for that yet.
Ken
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:52 -0300, Hernan Tylim wrote:
Hi Ken,
I've seen a lot of this mails, and I am not criticizing, but I always wondered.... Why don't you just shutdown the BFAV server? or at least the part of it that scan and parse the mailing list ?
Regards, Hernán
Hi ken
I found myfself recently regretting the old BFAV time, because I got trapped within the bad interface of mantis losing a lot of time there. So I stopped using it because I could not. I did not say anything because I did not want to put the mess. Now I have a question: is there someone working on producing something better than mantis/ or patching mantis because what I see is that it slows us down a lot.
Stef
On 21 avr. 05, at 18:27, Ken Causey wrote:
Primarily because we janitors are human and the BFAV database serves for now as a useful backup to help us keep track of what issues we have and have not properly handled. If we miss one then it is very easy to catch by looking in BFAV. Secondarily, there are still issues in BFAV that should be handled in the old way. To do that harvesters need to be able to close the issue, mark them as approved, mark them as being in an update etc. All this relies on BFAV being able to receive new reports by email.
However there may come a time in the not too distant future when I can shut down the monitoring of the squeak-dev list and just monitor the behind the scenes squeak-harvesting list. However I don't think we are quite ready for that yet.
Ken
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:52 -0300, Hernan Tylim wrote:
Hi Ken,
I've seen a lot of this mails, and I am not criticizing, but I always wondered.... Why don't you just shutdown the BFAV server? or at least the part of it that scan and parse the mailing list ?
Regards, Hernán
Stéphane,
I would appreciate it if you could be more concrete about what you do not like about Mantis.
Ken
On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 09:36 +0200, stéphane ducasse wrote:
Hi ken
I found myfself recently regretting the old BFAV time, because I got trapped within the bad interface of mantis losing a lot of time there. So I stopped using it because I could not. I did not say anything because I did not want to put the mess. Now I have a question: is there someone working on producing something better than mantis/ or patching mantis because what I see is that it slows us down a lot.
Stef
On 21 avr. 05, at 18:27, Ken Causey wrote:
Primarily because we janitors are human and the BFAV database serves for now as a useful backup to help us keep track of what issues we have and have not properly handled. If we miss one then it is very easy to catch by looking in BFAV. Secondarily, there are still issues in BFAV that should be handled in the old way. To do that harvesters need to be able to close the issue, mark them as approved, mark them as being in an update etc. All this relies on BFAV being able to receive new reports by email.
However there may come a time in the not too distant future when I can shut down the monitoring of the squeak-dev list and just monitor the behind the scenes squeak-harvesting list. However I don't think we are quite ready for that yet.
Ken
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:52 -0300, Hernan Tylim wrote:
Hi Ken,
I've seen a lot of this mails, and I am not criticizing, but I always wondered.... Why don't you just shutdown the BFAV server? or at least the part of it that scan and parse the mailing list ?
Regards, Hernán
On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 11:27:12AM -0500, Ken Causey wrote:
Primarily because we janitors are human and the BFAV database serves for now as a useful backup to help us keep track of what issues we have and have not properly handled. If we miss one then it is very easy to catch by looking in BFAV. Secondarily, there are still issues in BFAV that should be handled in the old way. To do that harvesters need to be able to close the issue, mark them as approved, mark them as being in an update etc. All this relies on BFAV being able to receive new reports by email.
Keeping BFAV available is a good thing. There are lots of issues and concerns with history documented in BFAV and not (yet) in Mantis. As an example, bug #989 in Mantis reports a problem that is a show-stopper for Tweak. The original root problem dated back at least a couple of years, and some poor idiot had provided an incorrect fix that ultimately resulted in the show-stopper for Tweak. The history of this was all in BFAV, and the idiot in question was able to look it up in BFAV and provide enough background to help sort things out.
The moral of the story is that we have a lot of old issues that need to be managed, and BFAV is still useful even if the issue management process has moved to Mantis.
Dave
but we are all poor idiots dave. Believe me, me the first :)
But your point is valid, history is important.
On 22 avr. 05, at 12:54, David T. Lewis wrote:
On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 11:27:12AM -0500, Ken Causey wrote:
Primarily because we janitors are human and the BFAV database serves for now as a useful backup to help us keep track of what issues we have and have not properly handled. If we miss one then it is very easy to catch by looking in BFAV. Secondarily, there are still issues in BFAV that should be handled in the old way. To do that harvesters need to be able to close the issue, mark them as approved, mark them as being in an update etc. All this relies on BFAV being able to receive new reports by email.
Keeping BFAV available is a good thing. There are lots of issues and concerns with history documented in BFAV and not (yet) in Mantis. As an example, bug #989 in Mantis reports a problem that is a show-stopper for Tweak. The original root problem dated back at least a couple of years, and some poor idiot had provided an incorrect fix that ultimately resulted in the show-stopper for Tweak. The history of this was all in BFAV, and the idiot in question was able to look it up in BFAV and provide enough background to help sort things out.
The moral of the story is that we have a lot of old issues that need to be managed, and BFAV is still useful even if the issue management process has moved to Mantis.
Dave
stéphane ducasse wrote:
but we are all poor idiots dave. Believe me, me the first :)
But your point is valid, history is important.
I hate to be a party pooper, but Mantis sucks! I used BFAV quite a lot and liked to be using Squeak to fix it self. Now I don't know the process and I have lost most interest in it :-( Karl
On 22 avr. 05, at 12:54, David T. Lewis wrote:
On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 11:27:12AM -0500, Ken Causey wrote:
Primarily because we janitors are human and the BFAV database serves for now as a useful backup to help us keep track of what issues we have and have not properly handled. If we miss one then it is very easy to catch by looking in BFAV. Secondarily, there are still issues in BFAV that should be handled in the old way. To do that harvesters need to be able to close the issue, mark them as approved, mark them as being in an update etc. All this relies on BFAV being able to receive new reports by email.
Keeping BFAV available is a good thing. There are lots of issues and concerns with history documented in BFAV and not (yet) in Mantis. As an example, bug #989 in Mantis reports a problem that is a show-stopper for Tweak. The original root problem dated back at least a couple of years, and some poor idiot had provided an incorrect fix that ultimately resulted in the show-stopper for Tweak. The history of this was all in BFAV, and the idiot in question was able to look it up in BFAV and provide enough background to help sort things out.
The moral of the story is that we have a lot of old issues that need to be managed, and BFAV is still useful even if the issue management process has moved to Mantis.
Dave
Karl,
Just saying that something 'sucks' is less than helpful. If you really care please try to find some time to sit down and carefully explain what sucks about it in detail.
Ken
On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 16:52 +0200, karl wrote:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
but we are all poor idiots dave. Believe me, me the first :)
But your point is valid, history is important.
I hate to be a party pooper, but Mantis sucks! I used BFAV quite a lot and liked to be using Squeak to fix it self. Now I don't know the process and I have lost most interest in it :-( Karl
On 22 avr. 05, at 12:54, David T. Lewis wrote:
On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 11:27:12AM -0500, Ken Causey wrote:
Primarily because we janitors are human and the BFAV database serves for now as a useful backup to help us keep track of what issues we have and have not properly handled. If we miss one then it is very easy to catch by looking in BFAV. Secondarily, there are still issues in BFAV that should be handled in the old way. To do that harvesters need to be able to close the issue, mark them as approved, mark them as being in an update etc. All this relies on BFAV being able to receive new reports by email.
Keeping BFAV available is a good thing. There are lots of issues and concerns with history documented in BFAV and not (yet) in Mantis. As an example, bug #989 in Mantis reports a problem that is a show-stopper for Tweak. The original root problem dated back at least a couple of years, and some poor idiot had provided an incorrect fix that ultimately resulted in the show-stopper for Tweak. The history of this was all in BFAV, and the idiot in question was able to look it up in BFAV and provide enough background to help sort things out.
The moral of the story is that we have a lot of old issues that need to be managed, and BFAV is still useful even if the issue management process has moved to Mantis.
Dave
Ken Causey wrote:
Karl,
Just saying that something 'sucks' is less than helpful. If you really care please try to find some time to sit down and carefully explain what sucks about it in detail.
<rant> I'm not trying to offense anyone here but I think we lost more than we gained dropping BFAV in favor of Mantis. There are several issues: Moving from BFAV to Mantis meant loosing all the convenience and transparency and flexibility to do all the work in Squeak: Downloading a fix with a web browser and then finding and opening that file with Squeak and then review it in the web browser jumping back and forth between Squeak and the browser to get all the comments the way it should be and filing out a suggested enhancement to the fix and locate that from the web browser to be able to put that up on Mantis so someone can repeat that process to see if a two line fix is worth it or not. That was much easier with BFAV! The reviewer note pad was great, mailing out bugs from Squeak was great and not having to switch in and out of Squeak to find out if a bug was reported or not. And the share joy of eating our own dog food using Squeak as the main platform for enhancing and not jump into a distracting and strange web interface. And being able to fix and enhance the BFAV using Squeak.And that the Mantis is a system is a system I would never ever want fix or maintain or understand. And there was right up to the time when BFAV was dropped several great enhancements and refactorings going on and the efforts would probably continued if it wasn't dropped. And I think it would be easier to implement the features this community wants using BFAV. </rant> But I know that you had problems with the server side on BFAV, and since I don't see those problems and their headaches I know only the half the story. Karl
<rant> I'm not trying to offense anyone here but I think we lost more than we gained dropping BFAV in favor of Mantis. There are several issues: Moving from BFAV to Mantis meant loosing all the convenience and transparency and flexibility to do all the work in Squeak: Downloading a fix with a web browser and then finding and opening that file with Squeak and then review it in the web browser jumping back and forth between Squeak and the browser to get all the comments the way it should be and filing out a suggested enhancement to the fix and locate that from the web browser to be able to put that up on Mantis so someone can repeat that process to see if a two line fix is worth it or not. That was much easier with BFAV! The reviewer note pad was great, mailing out bugs from Squeak was great and not having to switch in and out of Squeak to find out if a bug was reported or not. And the share joy of eating our own dog food using Squeak as the main platform for enhancing and not jump into a distracting and strange web interface. And being able to fix and enhance the BFAV using Squeak.And that the Mantis is a system is a system I would never ever want fix or maintain or understand. And there was right up to the time when BFAV was dropped several great enhancements and refactorings going on and the efforts would probably continued if it wasn't dropped. And I think it would be easier to implement the features this community wants using BFAV. </rant> But I know that you had problems with the server side on BFAV, and since I don't see those problems and their headaches I know only the half the story. Karl
Yes so getting back the BFAV feeling + a BugTracking system would be nice in essence. So may be the bug should be sent not to the mailing-list to avoid parsing email but to a kind of server and BFAV should use the server. Ken it seems that email was the problem and the lack of bug tracking. ken what is your feeling since you were the guy behind all that great stuff.
Stef
I have found it nice in general to use Mantis. One improvement is the speed. I frequently avoided using BFAV because I would have to wait for many minutes while it downloads the email database. Another is that I like and understand filtering that Mantis has built into it.
I certainly liked having a Squeak interface, though. It was especially nice being able to browse code proposals without having to save them to a file and then reload them in Mantis.
FWIW. I expect that using an off-the-shelf bug tracker is going to be the fastest way to getting a pretty good bug tracker, and that a little Squeak hacking can turn any pretty good web-based tracker into an excellent one. If someone wants to really work on a Squeak-based tracker, including getting the performance improved, then that is great, but given that that doesn't seem to be happening.... If someone is into bug tracking technology, but has limited time, then a great way to get a lot of results from a little bit of effort would be to make a BFAV-like GUI that talks to a web-based bug tracker.
-Lex
Lex Spoon wrote:
I have found it nice in general to use Mantis. One improvement is the speed. I frequently avoided using BFAV because I would have to wait for many minutes while it downloads the email database. Another is that I like and understand filtering that Mantis has built into it.
I certainly liked having a Squeak interface, though. It was especially nice being able to browse code proposals without having to save them to a file and then reload them in Mantis.
FWIW. I expect that using an off-the-shelf bug tracker is going to be the fastest way to getting a pretty good bug tracker, and that a little Squeak hacking can turn any pretty good web-based tracker into an excellent one. If someone wants to really work on a Squeak-based tracker, including getting the performance improved, then that is great, but given that that doesn't seem to be happening.... If someone is into bug tracking technology, but has limited time, then a great way to get a lot of results from a little bit of effort would be to make a BFAV-like GUI that talks to a web-based bug tracker.
-Lex
The reason I picked up the TableMorph project again was to be able to browse Mantis from within Squeak. But the login to Mantis need fixing to be able enter the site with Scamper. I guess it could be better to axess the Mantis database with a dedicated client and dropping the web interface all together... Karl
I hate to be a party pooper, but Mantis sucks! I used BFAV quite a lot and liked to be using Squeak to fix it self. Now I don't know the process and I have lost most interest in it :-( Karl
Hi Karl
I know same feeling here. But I was waiting to see if I was the only one. :) And I did not want to say it too early. Now the true fact is that we need - a testserver (but right now people that stepped up where not really efficient on that) maybe because we did not see the value of that - a bug tracking system. because we need to know what to do with the bugs...
Stef
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karl -
Ken Causey -
Lex Spoon -
Lic. Edgar J. De Cleene -
stéphane ducasse