Hello
Note: The SIXX serialisation format has been around for a long time (on SqueakMap for 5.1) http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~umejava/smalltalk/sixx/ It has as well Pharo, Cuis and other implementations.
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
--Hannes
Would the STON format be suitable for projects as well? https://github.com/svenvc/ston/blob/master/ston-paper.md
Fabio
On Wed, 31 Aug 2016 at 08:33, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
Hello
Note: The SIXX serialisation format has been around for a long time (on SqueakMap for 5.1) http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~umejava/smalltalk/sixx/ It has as well Pharo, Cuis and other implementations.
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
--Hannes
A note by Tim
On 8/29/16, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote: ...
....the deep-copy code seems awfully like (much of) a serialiser
On 8/31/16, Fabio Niephaus lists@fniephaus.com wrote:
Would the STON format be suitable for projects as well? https://github.com/svenvc/ston/blob/master/ston-paper.md
Fabio
On Wed, 31 Aug 2016 at 08:33, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
Hello
Note: The SIXX serialisation format has been around for a long time (on SqueakMap for 5.1) http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~umejava/smalltalk/sixx/ It has as well Pharo, Cuis and other implementations.
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
--Hannes
On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
If someone wants to take a serious look I'd suggest Fuel. Being a replacement for ImageSegments was one of its design goals, if I remember correctly.
- Bert -
On 31.08.2016, at 11:14, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
If someone wants to take a serious look I'd suggest Fuel. Being a replacement for ImageSegments was one of its design goals, if I remember correctly.
- Bert -
+1
Also, Max Leske always made an effort that Fuel easily loads in Squeak.
best regards -Tobias
https://github.com/theseion/Fuel
says about Fuel
- No special VM-support needed. - Can serialize/materialize not only plain objects but also classes, traits, methods, closures, contexts, packages, etc. - Very customizable: ignore certain instance variables, substitute objects by others, pre and post serialization and materialization actions, etc. - Supports class rename and class reshape. - Good test coverage (almost 600 unit tests).
On 8/31/16, Tobias Pape Das.Linux@gmx.de wrote:
On 31.08.2016, at 11:14, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
If someone wants to take a serious look I'd suggest Fuel. Being a replacement for ImageSegments was one of its design goals, if I remember correctly.
- Bert -
+1
Also, Max Leske always made an effort that Fuel easily loads in Squeak.
best regards -Tobias
+1 Fuel
Max also runs all CI tests on different Squeak versions: https://travis-ci.org/theseion/Fuel Therefore, Fuel should be compatible to Squeak versions later than 4.4.
A test of Fuel with Squeak 5.1 ran three hours ago.
https://travis-ci.org/theseion/Fuel/jobs/156426655
SmalltalkCI: 515 Tests, 0 Failures, 0 Errors in 5.713s
On 8/31/16, Fabio Niephaus lists@fniephaus.com wrote:
+1 Fuel
Max also runs all CI tests on different Squeak versions: https://travis-ci.org/theseion/Fuel Therefore, Fuel should be compatible to Squeak versions later than 4.4.
--
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 1:00 PM H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
https://github.com/theseion/Fuel
says about Fuel
- No special VM-support needed.
- Can serialize/materialize not only plain objects but also classes,
traits, methods, closures, contexts, packages, etc.
- Very customizable: ignore certain instance variables, substitute
objects by others, pre and post serialization and materialization actions, etc.
- Supports class rename and class reshape.
- Good test coverage (almost 600 unit tests).
On 8/31/16, Tobias Pape Das.Linux@gmx.de wrote:
On 31.08.2016, at 11:14, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com
wrote:
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
If someone wants to take a serious look I'd suggest Fuel. Being a replacement for ImageSegments was one of its design goals, if I remember correctly.
- Bert -
+1
Also, Max Leske always made an effort that Fuel easily loads in Squeak.
best regards -Tobias
On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
If someone wants to take a serious look I'd suggest Fuel. Being a replacement for ImageSegments was one of its design goals, if I remember correctly.
+1. It also has a very performant architecture. It is very similar to VW's parcel format which priced to be significantly faster than other formats at PPD.
- Bert -
I would, of course, love for Ma Serializer to be considered. Its mature and proven, and has a lot of hooks and I just know the scrutiny and brilliance of this community would benefit it tremendously, and since Magma uses it, would make Magma fundamentally better, too.
The Fuel hysteria appears to have already garnered everyone's vote before I saw this thread to get myself on the ballot.. I once took at look at trying to use Fuel for Magma, but its much too limited (and not nearly as much faster than Ma Serializer as reported in the Fuel paper). Its is good for UC1) Save an object and UC2) Load an object, but not much else. :(
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:40 AM, Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
If someone wants to take a serious look I'd suggest Fuel. Being a replacement for ImageSegments was one of its design goals, if I remember correctly.
+1. It also has a very performant architecture. It is very similar to VW's parcel format which priced to be significantly faster than other formats at PPD.
- Bert -
To widen the discussion.
I think there was no discussion yet if the serialisation format should
a) be a binary format b) a text format c) or that we need both.
The prominent use case is saving and loading of projects, see thread
'Vaidotas, Squeak 5.1 saving of Morphic projects is broken'
and the SISS thread.
Speed of course is an issue. But then as well portability between different versions of images.
If the question is put as
Which serialisation format should succeed image segments then then the choice is probably limited to
- Fuel - Ma Serializer
On 8/31/16, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
I would, of course, love for Ma Serializer to be considered. Its mature and proven, and has a lot of hooks and I just know the scrutiny and brilliance of this community would benefit it tremendously, and since Magma uses it, would make Magma fundamentally better, too.
The Fuel hysteria appears to have already garnered everyone's vote before I saw this thread to get myself on the ballot.. I once took at look at trying to use Fuel for Magma, but its much too limited (and not nearly as much faster than Ma Serializer as reported in the Fuel paper). Its is good for UC1) Save an object and UC2) Load an object, but not much else. :(
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:40 AM, Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
If someone wants to take a serious look I'd suggest Fuel. Being a replacement for ImageSegments was one of its design goals, if I remember correctly.
+1. It also has a very performant architecture. It is very similar to VW's parcel format which priced to be significantly faster than other formats at PPD.
- Bert -
I have started using Fuel and Ma Serializer to store PasteUpMorphs stored in a project. Actually it is a collection of PastUpMorphs used as a slide show. I used as well SIXX for some tests.
It is possible to keep all the serialization packages in the same image.
Fuel and Ma Serializer work fine so far to save and restore PasteUpMorphs (with content). To use SIXX I had to go for a description and then restore from the description. Interestingly SIXX was about as space efficient as the other ones if I used compression on the the resulting file. As SISS is modeled after SIXX the result is probably the same (I did not verify this).
For the tests I did so far Ma Serializer was more space efficient. And the claim is that it spans versions wherase Fuel description explicitly states that it does not.
There is a need to agree on some test cases and criteria.
It is as well worth considering supporting different formats.
The API to do so is very thin.
E.g. for the Fuel test to restore the slide collection I just had to do.
slides := FLMaterializer materializeFromFileNamed: '/home/user/sq5.1test-Fuel/documentation/Kopie_Lit_01.FL'.
slides reverseDo: [:s | s openInWorld]
--Hannes
On 9/1/16, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
To widen the discussion.
I think there was no discussion yet if the serialisation format should
a) be a binary format b) a text format c) or that we need both.
The prominent use case is saving and loading of projects, see thread
'Vaidotas, Squeak 5.1 saving of Morphic projects is broken'
and the SISS thread.
Speed of course is an issue. But then as well portability between different versions of images.
If the question is put as
Which serialisation format should succeed image segments then then the choice is probably limited to
- Fuel
- Ma Serializer
On 8/31/16, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
I would, of course, love for Ma Serializer to be considered. Its mature and proven, and has a lot of hooks and I just know the scrutiny and brilliance of this community would benefit it tremendously, and since Magma uses it, would make Magma fundamentally better, too.
The Fuel hysteria appears to have already garnered everyone's vote before I saw this thread to get myself on the ballot.. I once took at look at trying to use Fuel for Magma, but its much too limited (and not nearly as much faster than Ma Serializer as reported in the Fuel paper). Its is good for UC1) Save an object and UC2) Load an object, but not much else. :(
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:40 AM, Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
If someone wants to take a serious look I'd suggest Fuel. Being a replacement for ImageSegments was one of its design goals, if I remember correctly.
+1. It also has a very performant architecture. It is very similar to VW's parcel format which priced to be significantly faster than other formats at PPD.
- Bert -
On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:48 PM, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
I have started using Fuel and Ma Serializer to store PasteUpMorphs stored in a project. Actually it is a collection of PastUpMorphs used as a slide show. I used as well SIXX for some tests.
It is possible to keep all the serialization packages in the same image.
Fuel and Ma Serializer work fine so far to save and restore PasteUpMorphs (with content). To use SIXX I had to go for a description and then restore from the description. Interestingly SIXX was about as space efficient as the other ones if I used compression on the the resulting file. As SISS is modeled after SIXX the result is probably the same (I did not verify this).
For the tests I did so far Ma Serializer was more space efficient. And the claim is that it spans versions wherase Fuel description explicitly states that it does not.
There is a need to agree on some test cases and criteria.
It is as well worth considering supporting different formats.
The API to do so is very thin.
E.g. for the Fuel test to restore the slide collection I just had to do.
slides := FLMaterializer materializeFromFileNamed: '/home/user/sq5.1test-Fuel/documentation/Kopie_Lit_01.FL'.
slides reverseDo: [:s | s openInWorld]
You can even add the #openInWorld as a post materialization action which is serialized in a header. That way, the #materialize will automatically evaluate your post actions.
--Hannes
On 9/1/16, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
To widen the discussion.
I think there was no discussion yet if the serialisation format should
a) be a binary format b) a text format c) or that we need both.
The prominent use case is saving and loading of projects, see thread
'Vaidotas, Squeak 5.1 saving of Morphic projects is broken'
and the SISS thread.
Speed of course is an issue. But then as well portability between different versions of images.
If the question is put as
Which serialisation format should succeed image segments then then the choice is probably limited to
- Fuel
- Ma Serializer
On 8/31/16, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
I would, of course, love for Ma Serializer to be considered. Its mature and proven, and has a lot of hooks and I just know the scrutiny and brilliance of this community would benefit it tremendously, and since Magma uses it, would make Magma fundamentally better, too.
The Fuel hysteria appears to have already garnered everyone's vote before I saw this thread to get myself on the ballot.. I once took at look at trying to use Fuel for Magma, but its much too limited (and not nearly as much faster than Ma Serializer as reported in the Fuel paper). Its is good for UC1) Save an object and UC2) Load an object, but not much else. :(
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:40 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com
wrote:
On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com
wrote:
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
If someone wants to take a serious look I'd suggest Fuel. Being a replacement for ImageSegments was one of its design goals, if I
remember
correctly.
+1. It also has a very performant architecture. It is very similar to VW's parcel format which priced to be significantly faster than other
formats
at PPD.
- Bert -
+1 JSON as is used for thousands
On 8/31/16, 3:33 AM, "H. Hirzel" hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
Hello
Note: The SIXX serialisation format has been around for a long time (on SqueakMap for 5.1) http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~umejava/smalltalk/sixx/ It has as well Pharo, Cuis and other implementations.
We might consider JSON or Fuel might as well options for a format to save projects (with ImageMorphs, Browsers, Workspaces, BookMorphs for example).
--Hannes
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
Chris Muller -
Edgar J. De Cleene -
Eliot Miranda -
Fabio Niephaus -
H. Hirzel -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Tobias Pape