Hi, I'm starting to work on Linux, I installed Ubuntu 9.04 and I was trying to install Etoys and Squeak. I should tell you: I am a Windows user with no experience in Linux. I downloaded the EtoysInstaller.deb from squeakland and it worked fine. Then I tried to install squeak following the instructions I found in http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3616. This also worked, I typed squeak in the terminal and Squeak opened. Then I tried to use one of my own images in which I usually work (on Windows), so I opened it using the command "squeakvm". The image worked almost fine, the only problem I found was that the buttons on the "Sugar Navigator Flap" wasn't displayed correctly. Then I tried to open Etoys using the menu "Applications->Education->eToys" but it didn't open anymore. I went to /usr/share/etoys and tried to open the etoys.image with squeakvm and it opened with an error: "A primitive has failed" and the display all wrong (I had to redraw the screen by clicking on "display mode->scale to fit"). I tried reinstalling Etoys but the Package Installer tells me that "A later version is already installed". I suppose the Etoys image needs a different vm but I don't know where to find it. What do you think I should do?
On 03.08.2009, at 21:17, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi, I'm starting to work on Linux, I installed Ubuntu 9.04 and I was trying to install Etoys and Squeak. I should tell you: I am a Windows user with no experience in Linux. I downloaded the EtoysInstaller.deb from squeakland and it worked fine. Then I tried to install squeak following the instructions I found in http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3616. This also worked, I typed squeak in the terminal and Squeak opened. Then I tried to use one of my own images in which I usually work (on Windows), so I opened it using the command "squeakvm". The image worked almost fine, the only problem I found was that the buttons on the "Sugar Navigator Flap" wasn't displayed correctly. Then I tried to open Etoys using the menu "Applications->Education-
eToys" but it didn't open anymore. I went to /usr/share/etoys and
tried to open the etoys.image with squeakvm and it opened with an error: "A primitive has failed" and the display all wrong (I had to redraw the screen by clicking on "display mode->scale to fit"). I tried reinstalling Etoys but the Package Installer tells me that "A later version is already installed". I suppose the Etoys image needs a different vm but I don't know where to find it. What do you think I should do?
To get a working Etoys, uninstall the Etoys distro package, then re- install the Squeakland one (which contains a VM).
To work with other Squeak images, install the ubuntu squeak packages. Or get a VM from squeakvm.org, and image/changes/sources from squeak.org, and use them, if you want more recent ones.
All of these can happily live together, just do not install the Ubuntu etoys package, which breaks Etoys and is outdated anyway.
- Bert -
Thanks David and Bert. I uninstalled Squeak and Etoys and re-installed the Squeakland package. Then I searched the etoys script and find out how to open my image with the correct vm. Everything is working now :)
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Ricardo Moranrichi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks David and Bert. I uninstalled Squeak and Etoys and re-installed the Squeakland package. Then I searched the etoys script and find out how to open my image with the correct vm. Everything is working now :)
There is also a problem with the sound of both etoys(the one downloaded from squeakland) and squeak. (try it executing the code: Beeper beep.)
To fix it I did this this with etoys: sudo gedit /usr/bin/etoys
go to line 12 add this -vm sound=OSS so the resulting line would be:
VMOPTIONS="-encoding UTF-8 -plugins $BIN -vm-display-x11 -vm sound=OSS"
On 04.08.2009, at 00:30, ebellani@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Ricardo Moranrichi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks David and Bert. I uninstalled Squeak and Etoys and re- installed the Squeakland package. Then I searched the etoys script and find out how to open my image with the correct vm. Everything is working now :)
There is also a problem with the sound of both etoys(the one downloaded from squeakland) and squeak. (try it executing the code: Beeper beep.)
To fix it I did this this with etoys: sudo gedit /usr/bin/etoys go to line 12 add this -vm sound=OSS so the resulting line would be:
VMOPTIONS="-encoding UTF-8 -plugins $BIN -vm-display-x11 -vm sound=OSS"
At least on Fedora 11 you also need to install the alsa-oss wrapper, and run squeak under aoss.
If anyone wants to fix this for real, the ticket is
http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7328
- Bert -
Bert wrote:
If anyone wants to fix this for real, the ticket is
(1)
Thanks for the link. Will the workaround be in the next Squeakland version of /usr/bin/etoys ?
(2)
What benefits are there from maintaining ALSA or PulseAudio support in the VM? As far as I know they are specific to Linux(*), while OSS (Open Sound System) works on most Unix except Mac OS X.
Which sound interface does the OLPC XO (and Sugar) need?
Best, David
(*) I just read that PulseAudio was ported to some non-Linux platforms, but that at least one leading Linux distributions only got it working in 2009.
On 04.08.2009, at 16:23, David Corking wrote:
Bert wrote:
If anyone wants to fix this for real, the ticket is
(1)
Thanks for the link. Will the workaround be in the next Squeakland version of /usr/bin/etoys ?
Only if someone can think of a way to reliably detect the problem.
(2)
What benefits are there from maintaining ALSA or PulseAudio support in the VM? As far as I know they are specific to Linux(*), while OSS (Open Sound System) works on most Unix except Mac OS X.
OSS is obsolete. It's not supported out-of-the-box on most modern Linux distros anymore. If at all, it is provided by an emulation layer like alsa-oss which adds considerable delay. We would get Squeak talking to OSS talking to emulated ALSA talking to PulseAudio talking to real ALSA. No wonder there is delay in that.
Here is an overview of the various Linux sound APIs:
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/guide-to-sound-apis.html
Which sound interface does the OLPC XO (and Sugar) need?
Etoys sound works fine on the XO, which uses an older Fedora with straight ALSA. But Sugar runs on all distros, and the newer ones reroute ALSA calls to PulseAudio. This is what appears to break Squeak sound, because it works fine on "real ALSA" but breaks on "emulated ALSA".
The Right Way To Fix It would appear to be rewriting our ALSA plugin to use the "safe subset" of ALSA which is properly understood by PulseAudio.
- Bert -
The addition to line 12 of /usr/bin/etoys should be: -vm-sound-oss (all hyphens - the punctuation was garbled in one of the earlier messages.)
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Only if someone can think of a way to reliably detect the problem.
...
(PulseAudio) is what appears to break Squeak sound, because it works fine on "real ALSA" but breaks on "emulated ALSA".
Oh, I had hoped the workaround would be an effective fallback for everyone on Debian derivatives. I bet the lack of native ALSA is far from trivial to detect in a shell script :(
OSS is obsolete. It's not supported out-of-the-box on most modern Linux distros anymore. If at all, it is provided by an emulation layer like alsa-oss which adds considerable delay. We would get Squeak talking to OSS talking to emulated ALSA talking to PulseAudio talking to real ALSA. No wonder there is delay in that.
I haven't done any testing - is the delay noticeable? The OSS API (via emulation layers) is not obsolete, and OSS is still the standard on BSD.
10 years ago, ALSA was the next big thing. Now, ALSA is fading away, and OSS and /dev/dsp , with all their flaws, are still here.
Here is an overview of the various Linux sound APIs:
(great guide - thanks - and the author admits his bias too! I also enjoyed the linked article: http://lwn.net/Articles/299211/ and comments)
Given that so many distros have already gone to PulseAudio, Lennart makes a pretty convincing case for the Linux VM to move towards a "PulseAudio-safe" subset of the ALSA API. Thanks for your patience with me.
David
On 04.08.2009, at 21:51, David Corking wrote:
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Only if someone can think of a way to reliably detect the problem.
...
(PulseAudio) is what appears to break Squeak sound, because it works fine on "real ALSA" but breaks on "emulated ALSA".
Oh, I had hoped the workaround would be an effective fallback for everyone on Debian derivatives. I bet the lack of native ALSA is far from trivial to detect in a shell script :(
Yes, but detecting active pulseaudio is simpler. See my comment on
http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-214
OSS is obsolete. It's not supported out-of-the-box on most modern Linux distros anymore. If at all, it is provided by an emulation layer like alsa-oss which adds considerable delay. We would get Squeak talking to OSS talking to emulated ALSA talking to PulseAudio talking to real ALSA. No wonder there is delay in that.
I haven't done any testing - is the delay noticeable?
We tried it in SoaS on an Intel Classmate in Mexico today. First using the alsa-oss wrapper which had an awful delay. Then using the padsp wrapper, much better, but still with a slight delay.
The OSS API (via emulation layers) is not obsolete, and OSS is still the standard on BSD.
You are right - but since in many Linux distros it is not pre- installed anymore (not even the emulation wrapper) we cannot rely on it. Likewise, it is not on the OLPC XO (which actually prompted doing the ALSA driver).
10 years ago, ALSA was the next big thing. Now, ALSA is fading away, and OSS and /dev/dsp , with all their flaws, are still here.
ALSA seems to still be the low-level interface of choice. It's just that PulseAudio is trying to virtualize it, breaking some code.
Here is an overview of the various Linux sound APIs:
(great guide - thanks - and the author admits his bias too! I also enjoyed the linked article: http://lwn.net/Articles/299211/ and comments)
Given that so many distros have already gone to PulseAudio, Lennart makes a pretty convincing case for the Linux VM to move towards a "PulseAudio-safe" subset of the ALSA API. Thanks for your patience with me.
Well, the code is here if you want to try:
http://squeakvm.org/svn/squeak/trunk/platforms/unix/vm-sound-ALSA/sqUnixSoun...
- Bert -
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Yes, but detecting active pulseaudio is simpler. See my comment on
Great! That code works fine on my Ubuntu 9.04 box.
David
At Tue, 4 Aug 2009 15:23:21 +0100, David Corking wrote:
(2)
What benefits are there from maintaining ALSA or PulseAudio support in the VM? As far as I know they are specific to Linux(*), while OSS (Open Sound System) works on most Unix except Mac OS X.
Which sound interface does the OLPC XO (and Sugar) need?
On XO, ALSA is the preferred driver. Even there is some support code in to switch the audio input port on XO to direct sensor input mode.
-- Yoshiki
Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
On XO, ALSA is the preferred driver. Even there is some support code in to switch the audio input port on XO to direct sensor input mode.
Which are the main classes or methods for direct sensor input? Is there a tile?
At Tue, 4 Aug 2009 21:02:52 +0100, David Corking wrote:
Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
On XO, ALSA is the preferred driver. Even there is some support code in to switch the audio input port on XO to direct sensor input mode.
Which are the main classes or methods for direct sensor input? Is there a tile?
From the Multimedia category of Object Catalog, drag out WorldStethoscope object. There you can click on the AC/DC button to switch it. There aren't enough number of tiles to control WorldStethoscope and graphs you can create from it for now...
-- Yoshiki
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Ricardo Moranrichi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks David and Bert. I uninstalled Squeak and Etoys and re-installed the Squeakland package. Then I searched the etoys script and find out how to open my image with the correct vm. Everything is working now :)
There is also a problem with the sound of both etoys(the one downloaded from squeakland) and squeak. (try it executing the code: Beeper beep.)
To fix it I did this this with etoys: sudo gedit /usr/bin/etoys
go to line 12 add this -vm sound=OSS so the resulting line would be:
VMOPTIONS="-encoding UTF-8 -plugins $BIN -vm-display-x11 -vm sound=OSS"
On Aug 3, 2009, at 6:31 PM, ebellani@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Ricardo Moranrichi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks David and Bert. I uninstalled Squeak and Etoys and re- installed the Squeakland package. Then I searched the etoys script and find out how to open my image with the correct vm. Everything is working now :)
There is also a problem with the sound of both etoys(the one downloaded from squeakland) and squeak. (try it executing the code: Beeper beep.)
To fix it I did this this with etoys: sudo gedit /usr/bin/etoys go to line 12 add this -vm sound=OSS so the resulting line would be:
VMOPTIONS="-encoding UTF-8 -plugins $BIN -vm-display-x11 -vm sound=OSS"
Can someone put this on the "secrets" wiki page? (all such tips should go there as a temporary place before more formal documentation).
On 31.08.2009, at 15:48, Timothy Falconer wrote:
On Aug 3, 2009, at 6:31 PM, ebellani@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Ricardo Moranrichi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks David and Bert. I uninstalled Squeak and Etoys and re- installed the Squeakland package. Then I searched the etoys script and find out how to open my image with the correct vm. Everything is working now :)
There is also a problem with the sound of both etoys(the one downloaded from squeakland) and squeak. (try it executing the code: Beeper beep.)
To fix it I did this this with etoys: sudo gedit /usr/bin/etoys go to line 12 add this -vm sound=OSS so the resulting line would be:
VMOPTIONS="-encoding UTF-8 -plugins $BIN -vm-display-x11 -vm sound=OSS"
Can someone put this on the "secrets" wiki page? (all such tips should go there as a temporary place before more formal documentation).
No need to. The workaround has been added to the 4.0.2247 beta two weeks ago:
http://svn.squeakland.org/installers/NEWS
and also to the upcoming VM releas:
http://squeakvm.org/svn/squeak/trunk/platforms/unix/cmake/squeak.in
- Bert -
Almost certainly an image/vm mismatch.
I am a windows expert and moderately competent in Ubuntu.
My practice is to grab one of the one-click distributions and put my image there. I've been teaching my kids using Stephane's Robot's book. I used the One-click Seaside. We put it on a USB key and move it from Windows to Linux depending on what machine is available.
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Ricardo Moranrichi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I'm starting to work on Linux, I installed Ubuntu 9.04 and I was trying to install Etoys and Squeak. I should tell you: I am a Windows user with no experience in Linux. I downloaded the EtoysInstaller.deb from squeakland and it worked fine. Then I tried to install squeak following the instructions I found in http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3616. This also worked, I typed squeak in the terminal and Squeak opened. Then I tried to use one of my own images in which I usually work (on Windows), so I opened it using the command "squeakvm". The image worked almost fine, the only problem I found was that the buttons on the "Sugar Navigator Flap" wasn't displayed correctly. Then I tried to open Etoys using the menu "Applications->Education->eToys" but it didn't open anymore. I went to /usr/share/etoys and tried to open the etoys.image with squeakvm and it opened with an error: "A primitive has failed" and the display all wrong (I had to redraw the screen by clicking on "display mode->scale to fit"). I tried reinstalling Etoys but the Package Installer tells me that "A later version is already installed". I suppose the Etoys image needs a different vm but I don't know where to find it. What do you think I should do?
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
David Corking -
David Mitchell -
ebellani＠gmail.com -
Ricardo Moran -
Timothy Falconer -
Yoshiki Ohshima