Dear Squeakers
I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise.
First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk. So what are my dreams?
For Pharo ====== We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation that makes other dynamic language jealous. We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications.
Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the system should be clean, robust and flexible. Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental.
About innovation I mean in no order: Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply.
About clean Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder...
Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
About Etoys ======== I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise.
About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo ====================================== Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I found the red pill :)
*I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG we are doing a great job.
About cross dialect energy ================= Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :)
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves).
Stef
Good morning Stephane,
On my part, welcome back. Just moments ago I was loading VMMaker into a new image & I remembered you... IMHO your participation in this forum as well as in the squeak community is very valuable.
Regarding the squeak vs pharo thing, I really don't see "competition" as a problem. On the contrary if efforts cross-seed new ideas & developments it will be a good thing.
About "rantings" I see that sometimes people start a really "religious" (dogmatic) discussion about some things and get blind to possibilities. I feel that the way forks happened in past reflect this problem of "dogma". If a community can step over this way of thinking, then efficacy, efficiency and quality of efforts increase.
Currently I see squeak, pharo & cuis as research efforts in different fields ranging from academic to commercial (the order of factors doesn't matter). What bothered me is that for a while communities became insulated so exchange of experiences reached a low level. Now things seem to get better.
Nowadays, as one said, I'm a "lurker" in this community because I can't publish what I'm doing. Things will change past June or July. Anyways it has to do with distributed processing & things like that.
Best regards,
CdAB
2010/3/26 stephane ducasse stephane.ducasse@free.fr
Dear Squeakers
I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise.
First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believedthat we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
So what are my dreams?For Pharo
We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation thatmakes other dynamic language jealous. We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications.
Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the systemshould be clean, robust and flexible. Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental.
About innovation I mean in no order: Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply.
About clean Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder...
Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
About Etoys
I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations ofetoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise.
About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... andthe inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I found the red pill :)
*I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rantnor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG we are doing a great job.
About cross dialect energy
Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the attitudeof people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :)
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves).Stef
On 26.03.2010, at 12:17, stephane ducasse wrote:
Dear Squeakers
I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise.
First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
So what are my dreams?
For Pharo
We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation that makes other dynamic language jealous. We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications.
Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the system should be clean, robust and flexible. Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental.
About innovation I mean in no order: Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply.
About clean Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder...
Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
About Etoys
I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise.
About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I found the red pill :)
*I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG we are doing a great job.
About cross dialect energy
Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :)
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves).
Stef
Thank you, Stef. That's a great peace-offering, and I happily accept.
I, too, hope that Squeak and Pharo will share as much as possible, even if our visions are not the same, and the paths we choose to get there are different. Squeak takes the slower route, trying to keep strange things like Etoys working while refactoring them, trying to be inclusive of every project from Seaside to Croquet, supporting Traits but making them unloadable, etc.
It's great to see how fast Pharo is moving forward, although I've only been watching from afar. I just subscribed to your list so my message gets through. No time to get involved, my personal focus is still on Etoys, and Squeak, as time permits. But I'll try to follow a bit more closely :)
Merci beaucoup!
- Bert -
(Squeak Oversight Board member, speaking for myself, but I'm sure this is a relief for everyone in the community)
Hi Stef:
I'm one of the guys being in both lists and trying to follow the two things and appreciating things of both and your mail is really very very good on my pov. I also appreciate the effort of people contributing with a positive attitude on Squeak AND Pharo, as the guys you mentioned. And don't forget Dale doing the same and several others.
The Smalltalk community itself is so little, more little is the squeak/pharo and I think we can't afford not cooperate among us.
I also vote for a long period of fun ahead, doing Squeak/Pharo or Pharo/Squeak :)
Germán.
2010/3/26 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 26.03.2010, at 12:17, stephane ducasse wrote:
Dear Squeakers
I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise.
First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
So what are my dreams?
For Pharo
We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation that makes other dynamic language jealous. We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications.
Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the system should be clean, robust and flexible. Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental.
About innovation I mean in no order: Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply.
About clean Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder...
Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
About Etoys
I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise.
About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I found the red pill :)
*I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG we are doing a great job.
About cross dialect energy
Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :)
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves).
Stef
Thank you, Stef. That's a great peace-offering, and I happily accept.
I, too, hope that Squeak and Pharo will share as much as possible, even if our visions are not the same, and the paths we choose to get there are different. Squeak takes the slower route, trying to keep strange things like Etoys working while refactoring them, trying to be inclusive of every project from Seaside to Croquet, supporting Traits but making them unloadable, etc.
It's great to see how fast Pharo is moving forward, although I've only been watching from afar. I just subscribed to your list so my message gets through. No time to get involved, my personal focus is still on Etoys, and Squeak, as time permits. But I'll try to follow a bit more closely :)
Merci beaucoup!
- Bert -
(Squeak Oversight Board member, speaking for myself, but I'm sure this is a relief for everyone in the community)
I dream about the following equation: Squeak = Pharo + multimedia packages + Alice + Etoy + Sound
Alexandre
On 26 Mar 2010, at 09:41, Germán Arduino wrote:
Hi Stef:
I'm one of the guys being in both lists and trying to follow the two things and appreciating things of both and your mail is really very very good on my pov. I also appreciate the effort of people contributing with a positive attitude on Squeak AND Pharo, as the guys you mentioned. And don't forget Dale doing the same and several others.
The Smalltalk community itself is so little, more little is the squeak/pharo and I think we can't afford not cooperate among us.
I also vote for a long period of fun ahead, doing Squeak/Pharo or Pharo/Squeak :)
Germán.
2010/3/26 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 26.03.2010, at 12:17, stephane ducasse wrote:
Dear Squeakers
I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise.
First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because webelieved that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
So what are my dreams?For Pharo
We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementationthat makes other dynamic language jealous. We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications.
Being able to experiment fast is important but for that thesystem should be clean, robust and flexible. Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental.
About innovation I mean in no order: Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply.
About clean Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder...
Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
About Etoys
I love Etoys (we translated the book and did morepresentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise.
About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/...and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I found the red pill :)
*I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will notrant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG we are doing a great job.
About cross dialect energy
Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate theattitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :)
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted onwaves).
Stef
Thank you, Stef. That's a great peace-offering, and I happily accept.
I, too, hope that Squeak and Pharo will share as much as possible, even if our visions are not the same, and the paths we choose to get there are different. Squeak takes the slower route, trying to keep strange things like Etoys working while refactoring them, trying to be inclusive of every project from Seaside to Croquet, supporting Traits but making them unloadable, etc.
It's great to see how fast Pharo is moving forward, although I've only been watching from afar. I just subscribed to your list so my message gets through. No time to get involved, my personal focus is still on Etoys, and Squeak, as time permits. But I'll try to follow a bit more closely :)
Merci beaucoup!
- Bert -
(Squeak Oversight Board member, speaking for myself, but I'm sure this is a relief for everyone in the community)
Hi guys!
I for one am very glad to see Steph's post and appreciate both Pharo and Squeak. Sometimes Pharo seems to have lots of good stuff going, and sometimes Squeak does, especially lately.
ESUG is probably my new personal "yearly conference" and it was great in Brest. I really love the whole energy around Pharo/ESUG.
At the same time I am a long time squeak.org-er and will never leave, so I really like this "open hand" and I also like all efforts of sharing between the forks (including other forks, like Cobalt, Cuis, Teleplace etc).
I alsp hope that we all, on *all* forks, know when to say "Hey, perhaps we should check and sync this with the other forks?". At least *some* of our mechanisms are *very* important to try to keep in sync - like say Monticello and/or event mechanisms etc.
Hopefully I will get time to spend on a new SqueakMap and Deltastreams - although I make no promises, but if and when I do, all forks are included as targets in my book :)
regards, Göran
PS. Super thanks to the people that currently work as "bridges" between trunk and Pharo - you know who you are!
Hi Stef -
Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad that we all seem to be ready to leave the past behind us and move on into the future. I fully understand (and appreciate) your decision to fork Pharo and I have most definitely no objections to its direction and goals.
Talking about goals, I think there's a lot of overlap here. We all want a small system, a cool system, a clean system, a fast system, an innovative system. So there is a good number of things where we could and should work together. And obviously, we all appreciate the numerous contributions to both Squeak and Pharo; neither system would be where it is without the contributions from the community.
How a more effective sharing might look like is a bit open to me though. I spend most of last week thinking about what kind of setup could serve both projects (this is what delayed my reply in the other conversation) in a way that doesn't require either side to make unacceptable compromises but unfortunately I drew a blank here.
It seems to me that neither Squeak nor Pharo are yet at a point where it could sensibly (i.e., without needlessly increasing the burden of the contributors) utilize a straightforward sharing mechanism. Any meaningful ideas would be welcome.
Perhaps a better way to go about it might be to identify important non-core packages that we both intend to support and convince their maintainers to keep an open and inclusive attitude. For example, having Filesystem and Xtreams available in both projects might be a good start.
Other than that, let me remind you that Squeak has an open contribution process and that many Pharo developers, including you, Markus, Adrian, Michael, Lukas and many more have been invited to be part of the core-developers group of Squeak. All of you received an invitation to participate and improve Squeak when the trunk was initiated. The invitation is still open.
Cheers, - Andreas
On 3/26/2010 4:17 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Dear Squeakers
I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise.
First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
So what are my dreams?
For Pharo
We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation that makes other dynamic language jealous. We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications.
Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the system should be clean, robust and flexible. Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental.
About innovation I mean in no order: Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply.
About clean Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder...
Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
About Etoys
I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise.
About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I found the red pill :)
*I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG we are doing a great job.
About cross dialect energy
Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :)
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves).
Stef
#1: Tests! I think we should think about finding common ground in tests for things that both projects use and care about. For example, it makes sense to a lot of Squeakers to be able to unload Traits, so we have a different implementation from what Pharo has; but if all the Traits *tests* pass on both platforms, then we either have compatible implementations, or we need better tests. If we have single implementations of any two packages shared between platforms, we should go with SUnit (first!) and Monticello.
#2: Seaside! It's my belief that the future of Smalltalk will ultimately be founded upon the *applications* that Smalltalkers want to use. Everyone loves Seaside, so we know this is common ground. And we don't have to stop at Seaside, either. I'm sure there a folks in both camps who would very much like to see the Magma tests passing identically on both platforms.
#3: eToys! Just kidding!
What do you guys think?
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Andreas Raab andreas.raab@gmx.de wrote:
Hi Stef -
Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad that we all seem to be ready to leave the past behind us and move on into the future. I fully understand (and appreciate) your decision to fork Pharo and I have most definitely no objections to its direction and goals.
Talking about goals, I think there's a lot of overlap here. We all want a small system, a cool system, a clean system, a fast system, an innovative system. So there is a good number of things where we could and should work together. And obviously, we all appreciate the numerous contributions to both Squeak and Pharo; neither system would be where it is without the contributions from the community.
How a more effective sharing might look like is a bit open to me though. I spend most of last week thinking about what kind of setup could serve both projects (this is what delayed my reply in the other conversation) in a way that doesn't require either side to make unacceptable compromises but unfortunately I drew a blank here.
It seems to me that neither Squeak nor Pharo are yet at a point where it could sensibly (i.e., without needlessly increasing the burden of the contributors) utilize a straightforward sharing mechanism. Any meaningful ideas would be welcome.
Perhaps a better way to go about it might be to identify important non-core packages that we both intend to support and convince their maintainers to keep an open and inclusive attitude. For example, having Filesystem and Xtreams available in both projects might be a good start.
Other than that, let me remind you that Squeak has an open contribution process and that many Pharo developers, including you, Markus, Adrian, Michael, Lukas and many more have been invited to be part of the core-developers group of Squeak. All of you received an invitation to participate and improve Squeak when the trunk was initiated. The invitation is still open.
Cheers,
- Andreas
On 3/26/2010 4:17 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Dear Squeakers
I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise.
First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believedthat we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
So what are my dreams?For Pharo
We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation thatmakes other dynamic language jealous. We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications.
Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the systemshould be clean, robust and flexible. Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental.
About innovation I mean in no order: Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply.
About clean Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder...
Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
About Etoys
I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations ofetoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise.
About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... andthe inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision.
People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me ifthis helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I found the red pill :)
*I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rantnor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG we are doing a great job.
About cross dialect energy
Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate theattitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :)
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves).Stef
Hi Stef -
Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad that we all seem to be ready to leave the past behind us and move on into the future. I fully understand (and appreciate) your decision to fork Pharo and I have most definitely no objections to its direction and goals.
Talking about goals, I think there's a lot of overlap here. We all want a small system, a cool system, a clean system, a fast system, an innovative system. So there is a good number of things where we could and should work together. And obviously, we all appreciate the numerous contributions to both Squeak and Pharo; neither system would be where it is without the contributions from the community.
I thought that squeak would have something to say on the multimedia level, because it seems that we will redo the same in the quest of a clean kernel but this is life.
How a more effective sharing might look like is a bit open to me though. I spend most of last week thinking about what kind of setup could serve both projects (this is what delayed my reply in the other conversation) in a way that doesn't require either side to make unacceptable compromises but unfortunately I drew a blank here.
It seems to me that neither Squeak nor Pharo are yet at a point where it could sensibly (i.e., without needlessly increasing the burden of the contributors) utilize a straightforward sharing mechanism. Any meaningful ideas would be welcome.
Perhaps a better way to go about it might be to identify important non-core packages that we both intend to support and convince their maintainers to keep an open and inclusive attitude. For example, having Filesystem and Xtreams available in both projects might be a good start.
Other than that, let me remind you that Squeak has an open contribution process and that many Pharo developers, including you, Markus, Adrian, Michael, Lukas and many more have been invited to be part of the core-developers group of Squeak. All of you received an invitation to participate and improve Squeak when the trunk was initiated. The invitation is still open.
Cheers,
- Andreas
stephane ducasse wrote:
Dear Squeakers
I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise.
First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
So what are my dreams?
For Pharo
We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation that makes other dynamic language jealous. We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications.
Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the system should be clean, robust and flexible. Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental.
About innovation I mean in no order: Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply.
About clean Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder...
Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
About Etoys
I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise.
About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I found the red pill :)
*I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG we are doing a great job.
About cross dialect energy
Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :)
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves).
Stef
Hi Stef,
This is fantastic. Thank you.
To the Squeak community, please everybody (especially the very few who haven't always done it) shake Stef's hand, be constructive, focus on the future (and not too much in the past), and keep discussions technical and not personal.
Cheers, Juan Vuletich
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Andreas Raab -
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Bert Freudenberg -
Casey Ransberger -
casimiro barreto -
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Juan Vuletich -
Lawson English -
stephane ducasse -
stephane ducasse