El jue, 05-11-2009 a las 17:47 -0300, Jecel Assumpcao Jr escribió:
Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
On 11/5/09 4:27 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
As for Keith's proposals: first time i heard about them not long ago in IRC chat, and i reacted.
Ha ha ha.
Good joke ! Only Board member and qualified Squeaker who don't know ?
I don't agree with Keith 98% of the time, but you can't said he don't try to discuss about the release process and how he think Squeak should be made.
By "Keith's proposals" Igor meant the set of rules Keith suggested for the board and teams recently on IRC, which Igor then brought to the board for discussion and we have brought to squeak-dev. Igor was not aware of previous attempts to define such rules even though Miguel said this discussion was many months old.
I don't said that. That's the reason for the change in the subject. I said that againg I see a neverending discussion about things that, although can be important indeed, just delay the changes, that the users want to see.
Of course I agree that the terms are important and in extreme cases will be the sword that will solve problems, but in 90% of the cases it won't be (hopefully) invoked. While that is discussed, there is no real advance on squeak any different than before, when everyone walk in its own direction, just like the trunk commits show the personal itches being scratched by each commiter.
For one attempt to start this discussion, see my post from February -
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-February/134 288.html
-- Jecel
Cheers
2009/11/6 Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez miguel.coba@gmail.com:
El jue, 05-11-2009 a las 17:47 -0300, Jecel Assumpcao Jr escribió:
Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
On 11/5/09 4:27 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
As for Keith's proposals: first time i heard about them not long ago in IRC chat, and i reacted.
Ha ha ha.
Good joke ! Only Board member and qualified Squeaker who don't know ?
I don't agree with Keith 98% of the time, but you can't said he don't try to discuss about the release process and how he think Squeak should be made.
By "Keith's proposals" Igor meant the set of rules Keith suggested for the board and teams recently on IRC, which Igor then brought to the board for discussion and we have brought to squeak-dev. Igor was not aware of previous attempts to define such rules even though Miguel said this discussion was many months old.
I don't said that. That's the reason for the change in the subject. I said that againg I see a neverending discussion about things that, although can be important indeed, just delay the changes, that the users want to see.
Why then, just not speak what changes you want to see? I want to see a lot of things. But i'm not sure that there many others who share my ideas. You know, its really hard to make eveyone happy :)
Of course I agree that the terms are important and in extreme cases will be the sword that will solve problems, but in 90% of the cases it won't be (hopefully) invoked. While that is discussed, there is no real advance on squeak any different than before, when everyone walk in its own direction, just like the trunk commits show the personal itches being scratched by each commiter.
Well, i think its not someone's fault (including board) that everyone wants to go into own direction. Its a natural way of things. You think that board should define the direction and development plans? Okay. But then board becomes not just a bunch of people who serve for oversight, but more closer to technical issues. Then board should consist of people who developing squeak and make different technical decisions, but not a comitte which just sits and watching overall progress. But again, the problem is to find people who will stick with plan and dedicate own time getting there. Without such people, all decisions is just a puff of smoke.
So, i want to ask, is there anyone, who willing to spend his spare time and continuously contribute, according to some plan? Or we left with only option to have a people who contributing only because of personal itches?
Needless to say, i'm not satisfied with current state of art.
For one attempt to start this discussion, see my post from February -
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-February/134 288.html
-- Jecel
Cheers
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
El vie, 06-11-2009 a las 01:24 +0200, Igor Stasenko escribió:
Needless to say, i'm not satisfied with current state of art.
It appears that everybody isn't satisfied but that changes nothing.
I think that what the board lacks is a real leadership, not like the leadership we have seen, but a real leadership.
One that can envision a glorious future One that can find the indispensable steps that lead to that glorious future. One that risk its popularity and sleeps thinking that the next day can be removed from the throne. One that risk lost part of the troops when following that glorious future. One that values the remaining troops as the ones having the same vision.
Which one of these has the Squeak board?
It doesn't have a glorious future envisioned for Squeak, that can be expressed in some clear text and not in vague words and statements. It can layout a list of basic steps to reach that goal. It tries to be good with everyone by not taking decisions that could upset some of them. Don't want to loose more troops to bad decisions but they are losing them because it can show them a path to follow.
I don't know a lot of history, but it is very hard to believe that Alexander asked the troops if they wanted to go to conquer Asia or to continue to build their beautiful homes and finding new techniques of horse riding.
So, the summary appears to me, is that there is no future yet for Squeak.
Thanks for the answers
Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote:
It doesn't have a glorious future envisioned for Squeak, that can be expressed in some clear text and not in vague words and statements. It can layout a list of basic steps to reach that goal. It tries to be good with everyone by not taking decisions that could upset some of them.
I always find it interesting to see how the very same set of actions is seen completely differently by different people. For Keith, the board *way* overstepped its bounds, making decisions that it had no right to make and upsetting him terribly. For you, the same set of actions counts as being indecisive and trying to be good with everyone.
Cheers, - Andreas
2009/11/6 Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez miguel.coba@gmail.com:
El vie, 06-11-2009 a las 01:24 +0200, Igor Stasenko escribió:
Needless to say, i'm not satisfied with current state of art.
It appears that everybody isn't satisfied but that changes nothing.
I think that what the board lacks is a real leadership, not like the leadership we have seen, but a real leadership.
One that can envision a glorious future One that can find the indispensable steps that lead to that glorious future. One that risk its popularity and sleeps thinking that the next day can be removed from the throne. One that risk lost part of the troops when following that glorious future. One that values the remaining troops as the ones having the same vision.
Which one of these has the Squeak board?
It doesn't have a glorious future envisioned for Squeak, that can be expressed in some clear text and not in vague words and statements. It can layout a list of basic steps to reach that goal. It tries to be good with everyone by not taking decisions that could upset some of them. Don't want to loose more troops to bad decisions but they are losing them because it can show them a path to follow.
I don't know a lot of history, but it is very hard to believe that Alexander asked the troops if they wanted to go to conquer Asia or to continue to build their beautiful homes and finding new techniques of horse riding.
So, the summary appears to me, is that there is no future yet for Squeak.
Well said. But if we talking about glorified historical parallels, lets take a look on a few other persons to be more objective. Napoleon - tried to repeat the glorious deeds of the past, defeated and ended up dying alone on distant island. Hitler - wanted better, glorious future for Germans, and defeated by allies, who didn't shared his view.
And at last one - Chengis Khan. One who built the most powerful empire and most biggest one in the history. But what is left from this empire? Culture - no. It was assimilated by different cultures. Architecture? No. We have a lot of architecture remnants from more distant past, but nothing worth mentioning from the glorious mongol empire. The only thing, which left is a memory about raging mongol cavalry, which was a most feared power in the middle ages world. And the stories about destruction and mass slaughter, when mongols defeating another country and sieze control of it.
Yes, of course, we could wear the dictatorship crowns and start fighting with watermills, losing the troops. But i fear this doesnt makes our chances any better to become the glorious and successfull.
Thanks for the answers
Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
El vie, 06-11-2009 a las 02:49 +0200, Igor Stasenko escribió:
2009/11/6 Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez miguel.coba@gmail.com:
El vie, 06-11-2009 a las 01:24 +0200, Igor Stasenko escribió:
Needless to say, i'm not satisfied with current state of art.
It appears that everybody isn't satisfied but that changes nothing.
I think that what the board lacks is a real leadership, not like the leadership we have seen, but a real leadership.
One that can envision a glorious future One that can find the indispensable steps that lead to that glorious future. One that risk its popularity and sleeps thinking that the next day can be removed from the throne. One that risk lost part of the troops when following that glorious future. One that values the remaining troops as the ones having the same vision.
Which one of these has the Squeak board?
It doesn't have a glorious future envisioned for Squeak, that can be expressed in some clear text and not in vague words and statements. It can layout a list of basic steps to reach that goal. It tries to be good with everyone by not taking decisions that could upset some of them. Don't want to loose more troops to bad decisions but they are losing them because it can show them a path to follow.
I don't know a lot of history, but it is very hard to believe that Alexander asked the troops if they wanted to go to conquer Asia or to continue to build their beautiful homes and finding new techniques of horse riding.
So, the summary appears to me, is that there is no future yet for Squeak.
Well said. But if we talking about glorified historical parallels, lets take a look on a few other persons to be more objective. Napoleon - tried to repeat the glorious deeds of the past, defeated and ended up dying alone on distant island. Hitler - wanted better, glorious future for Germans, and defeated by allies, who didn't shared his view.
And at last one - Chengis Khan. One who built the most powerful empire and most biggest one in the history. But what is left from this empire? Culture - no. It was assimilated by different cultures. Architecture? No. We have a lot of architecture remnants from more distant past, but nothing worth mentioning from the glorious mongol empire. The only thing, which left is a memory about raging mongol cavalry, which was a most feared power in the middle ages world. And the stories about destruction and mass slaughter, when mongols defeating another country and sieze control of it.
Even though the examples are related I think that they are not related to the problem at hand. The example I put was not about posthumous leftovers or historic admiration. My example was about contemporary choice making in order to reach some tangible and concrete goals before the death comes for us. With its twenty-something years Alexander was more capable of making decisions and lead ahead the people in the search of a dream.
I repeat, no matter if the dream is to be accomplished with the help of gods or by own hand and sweat. Isn't also about if the future persons will qualify good or bad its own decisions. He just want to fulfill a dream before dying.
What is the dream of Squeak before dying? Whom is to lead the hordes to reach that dream before the times change and the historians study it as a simple academic, incomplete and dead-before-time effort?
Better to die trying something magnificent and unreachable that deciding where to go and what to do.
Yes, of course, we could wear the dictatorship crowns and start fighting with watermills, losing the troops. But i fear this doesnt makes our chances any better to become the glorious and successfull.
Even Don Quixote went for its crazy dreams. That is not something you can deny him. The action by itself it is worth the effort.
Thanks for the answers
Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
Hi Miguel,
Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote:
... With its twenty-something years Alexander was more capable of making decisions and lead ahead the people in the search of a dream.
I repeat, no matter if the dream is to be accomplished with the help of gods or by own hand and sweat. Isn't also about if the future persons will qualify good or bad its own decisions. He just want to fulfill a dream before dying.
What is the dream of Squeak before dying? Whom is to lead the hordes to reach that dream before the times change and the historians study it as a simple academic, incomplete and dead-before-time effort?
Better to die trying something magnificent and unreachable that deciding where to go and what to do.
Even Don Quixote went for its crazy dreams. That is not something you can deny him. The action by itself it is worth the effort.
Thanks for the answers
Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
Hey, nice talk. Now, what are your own great dreams with Squeak? What are you doing to pursue them?
I can tell you about mine. Or you can read in this list and my web page about Cuis and Morphic 3. I can tell about Bert, Yoshiki and VPRI (Etoys, OLPC, FONC). I can tell about Andreas (Balloon 3D, Tweak, Croquet, Teleplace). I can tell about Gulik (the Unnamed Grand Project). Same for many others here. What about you?
This community can only achieve what its members actually do. For instance, the last 2 years I gave up about 1/3 of the money I was making just to have time to work on Cuis, Morphic 3 and to contribute to Squeak. You can see some of the results of that in the trunk. What about you?
And no, thanks. We don't need yet another non-contributing visionary.
Cheers, Juan Vuletich
On 11/6/09 8:22 AM, "Juan Vuletich" juan@jvuletich.org wrote:
Even Don Quixote went for its crazy dreams. That is not something you can deny him. The action by itself it is worth the effort.
Grande Juan, segui con tu maravilloso trabajo. Como diria Don Quijote, ladran Sancho, señal que cabalgamos.
Edgar
El vie, 06-11-2009 a las 09:55 -0200, Edgar J. De Cleene escribió:
On 11/6/09 8:22 AM, "Juan Vuletich" juan@jvuletich.org wrote:
Even Don Quixote went for its crazy dreams. That is not something you can deny him. The action by itself it is worth the effort.
Grande Juan, segui con tu maravilloso trabajo. Como diria Don Quijote, ladran Sancho, señal que cabalgamos.
Bueno bueno, si cabalgar es lo que hace Squeak desde hace 6 meses, tenemos una idea muy distinta de lo que es cabalgar. Al menos cabalgar hacia adelante y no en circulos.
Edgar
El vie, 06-11-2009 a las 07:22 -0300, Juan Vuletich escribió:
Hey, nice talk. Now, what are your own great dreams with Squeak? What are you doing to pursue them?
I must say that I am not as great programmer as Andreas or Yoshiki or any other you list. But that is not the point. The 90% of the squeak subscribers aren't and that is not to be ashamed. So I'm not. If we can't write a new Morphic or a Ballon 3d or whatever that doesn't mean that we don't want or could contribute to squeak.
Besides, Tweak, Etoys, UGP aren't the squeak future or goals, but projects built on top of Squeak.
My question, in simple terms is, what are the goals of Squeak. Something like, for example:
- minimal under 10 MB core image. - Etoys removal - All packages removed from image and easily loaded from squeak source - In core only collections, compiler, kernel and I/O. - Purge of squeaksource or new squeak source with maintained packages - fix of squeakmap mess - new framework for managing packages/dependencies/configuration (sake/packages, metacello, other) in next minimal squeak core
Things like that. They are only examples. But show to those that want to contribute what points are the most important to aim for the next Squeak version.
It has been said many times that 3.11 is all about tool but, for the common, unsavy squeak list subscriber, what are the tools, what can be help, maybe not code but documentation, blog posts, publicity, announcing.
I could never make my own Squeak version like you, but that doesn't means that I couldn't help by promoting squeak and making tutorials and in general making the world aware of this little thing called Squeak that I think that is marvelous but I can also note that _nobody_ knows and use. I would like to help fix that but that attitude of *we are doing good and we don't need that a newbie that hasn't contributed anything the size of Cuis, Etoys, Croquet ask anything about the squeak future* doesn't help and only push the people to other forks with more *visible* future stablished.
I can tell you about mine. Or you can read in this list and my web page about Cuis and Morphic 3. I can tell about Bert, Yoshiki and VPRI (Etoys, OLPC, FONC). I can tell about Andreas (Balloon 3D, Tweak, Croquet, Teleplace). I can tell about Gulik (the Unnamed Grand Project). Same for many others here. What about you?
This community can only achieve what its members actually do. For instance, the last 2 years I gave up about 1/3 of the money I was making just to have time to work on Cuis, Morphic 3 and to contribute to Squeak. You can see some of the results of that in the trunk. What about you?
And no, thanks. We don't need yet another non-contributing visionary.
Pity for the 90% of squeak list subscribers. We are not as smart to pertain to this community
Thanks for your time.
Cheers, Juan Vuletich
Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote:
... My question, in simple terms is, what are the goals of Squeak. Something like, for example:
- minimal under 10 MB core image.
- Etoys removal
- All packages removed from image and easily loaded from squeak source
- In core only collections, compiler, kernel and I/O.
- Purge of squeaksource or new squeak source with maintained packages
- fix of squeakmap mess
- new framework for managing packages/dependencies/configuration
(sake/packages, metacello, other) in next minimal squeak core
Things like that. They are only examples. But show to those that want to contribute what points are the most important to aim for the next Squeak version.
Asking that kind of questions is quite ok with me. Saying (quoting you):
"Whom is to lead the hordes to reach that dream before the times change and the historians study it as a simple academic, incomplete and dead-before-time effort? Better to die trying something magnificent and unreachable that deciding where to go and what to do. "
"Bueno bueno, si cabalgar es lo que hace Squeak desde hace 6 meses, tenemos una idea muy distinta de lo que es cabalgar. Al menos cabalgar hacia adelante y no en circulos."
"I think that what the board lacks is a real leadership, not like the leadership we have seen, but a real leadership.
One that can envision a glorious future One that can find the indispensable steps that lead to that glorious future. One that risk its popularity and sleeps thinking that the next day can be removed from the throne. One that risk lost part of the troops when following that glorious future. One that values the remaining troops as the ones having the same vision."
"there is no real advance on squeak any different than before, when everyone walk in its own direction, just like the trunk commits show the personal itches being scratched by each commiter."
"From some weeks to date I have been wondering what is the point of so many little and not so little random fixes going to trunk (not minimizing the effort or quality of them, that they indeed have). I have entered the Squeak page and nowhere could I find a single sentence about the goals that motivated so may changes.
Are they trying to fix Monticello (fix what)? Are they trying to fix input (unicode, japanese, russian, what?)? Are they trying to fix collections (were they broken?)? Are they trying to get some social results by experimenting with the number of automated mails about said fixes and reactions of people?"
and not being able / willing to help is quite not ok with me.
It has been said many times that 3.11 is all about tool but, for the common, unsavy squeak list subscriber, what are the tools, what can be help, maybe not code but documentation, blog posts, publicity, announcing.
I could never make my own Squeak version like you, but that doesn't means that I couldn't help by promoting squeak and making tutorials and in general making the world aware of this little thing called Squeak that I think that is marvelous but I can also note that _nobody_ knows and use. I would like to help fix that but that attitude of *we are doing good and we don't need that a newbie that hasn't contributed anything the size of Cuis, Etoys, Croquet ask anything about the squeak future* doesn't help and only push the people to other forks with more *visible* future stablished.
I guess you can at least read this list. The answers to your questions "(fix what)? (unicode, japanese, russian, what?)? (were they broken?)?"are all available for you to read.
I can tell you about mine. Or you can read in this list and my web page about Cuis and Morphic 3. I can tell about Bert, Yoshiki and VPRI (Etoys, OLPC, FONC). I can tell about Andreas (Balloon 3D, Tweak, Croquet, Teleplace). I can tell about Gulik (the Unnamed Grand Project). Same for many others here. What about you?
This community can only achieve what its members actually do. For instance, the last 2 years I gave up about 1/3 of the money I was making just to have time to work on Cuis, Morphic 3 and to contribute to Squeak. You can see some of the results of that in the trunk. What about you?
And no, thanks. We don't need yet another non-contributing visionary.
Pity for the 90% of squeak list subscribers. We are not as smart to pertain to this community
I don't think that 90% of the list subscribers think like you. But that's not the point at all.
I'm not trying to show if some of us are smarter than others or not. I'm showing you that some of us have our dreams and plans. And we work towards them. For good or bad, that's the only way to get things done here.
Finally I don't think that your "90%" if the list does not belong here. What I said is that we don't need yet another visionary trying to show us the way to the future, and at the same time admitting they know so little about Squeak that they can't contribute. Believe it or not, we have seen this attitude dozens of times in the past.
Thanks for your time.
Cheers, Juan Vuletich
2009/11/6 Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez miguel.coba@gmail.com:
El vie, 06-11-2009 a las 07:22 -0300, Juan Vuletich escribió:
Hey, nice talk. Now, what are your own great dreams with Squeak? What are you doing to pursue them?
I must say that I am not as great programmer as Andreas or Yoshiki or any other you list. But that is not the point. The 90% of the squeak subscribers aren't and that is not to be ashamed. So I'm not. If we can't write a new Morphic or a Ballon 3d or whatever that doesn't mean that we don't want or could contribute to squeak.
Besides, Tweak, Etoys, UGP aren't the squeak future or goals, but projects built on top of Squeak.
My question, in simple terms is, what are the goals of Squeak. Something like, for example:
- minimal under 10 MB core image.
- Etoys removal
- All packages removed from image and easily loaded from squeak source
- In core only collections, compiler, kernel and I/O.
- Purge of squeaksource or new squeak source with maintained packages
- fix of squeakmap mess
- new framework for managing packages/dependencies/configuration
(sake/packages, metacello, other) in next minimal squeak core
Things like that. They are only examples. But show to those that want to contribute what points are the most important to aim for the next Squeak version.
It has been said many times that 3.11 is all about tool but, for the common, unsavy squeak list subscriber, what are the tools, what can be help, maybe not code but documentation, blog posts, publicity, announcing.
I could never make my own Squeak version like you, but that doesn't means that I couldn't help by promoting squeak and making tutorials and in general making the world aware of this little thing called Squeak that I think that is marvelous but I can also note that _nobody_ knows and use. I would like to help fix that but that attitude of *we are doing good and we don't need that a newbie that hasn't contributed anything the size of Cuis, Etoys, Croquet ask anything about the squeak future* doesn't help and only push the people to other forks with more *visible* future stablished.
I can tell you about mine. Or you can read in this list and my web page about Cuis and Morphic 3. I can tell about Bert, Yoshiki and VPRI (Etoys, OLPC, FONC). I can tell about Andreas (Balloon 3D, Tweak, Croquet, Teleplace). I can tell about Gulik (the Unnamed Grand Project). Same for many others here. What about you?
This community can only achieve what its members actually do. For instance, the last 2 years I gave up about 1/3 of the money I was making just to have time to work on Cuis, Morphic 3 and to contribute to Squeak. You can see some of the results of that in the trunk. What about you?
And no, thanks. We don't need yet another non-contributing visionary.
Pity for the 90% of squeak list subscribers. We are not as smart to pertain to this community
you are smart enough to see the Squeak's shortest reachable goals (listed above) in same way as i do. Manifest the plan and milestones , and i (and i hope many others) will support you.
Thanks for your time.
Cheers, Juan Vuletich
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
On 11/6/09 3:30 PM, "Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez" miguel.coba@gmail.com wrote:
- minimal under 10 MB core image.
- Etoys removal
Both was done in SqueakLightII and in MinimalMorphic
http://ftp.squeak.org/various_images/SqueakLight/MinimalMorphic.7246.zip
It's my last. Currently I work on it and resurrecting Fenix http://img262.imageshack.us/i/trunkfenixegg.jpg/
MinimalMorphic.7246.image is 7.3 mb on my Mac
MinimalMorphic was started by Pavel Krivanek and I add all crazy ideas coming of SqueakLightII and good ones coming from trunk (but not all)
Fenix was Alejandro Reimondo idea, I hope soon I could produce valid micro images , this time coming from up to date trunk 3.10.2.
Edgar
El vie, 06-11-2009 a las 07:22 -0300, Juan Vuletich escribió:
Well, unfortunately this thread hasn't got any good results. So I apologize for asking and thanks for all the answers.
I will not argue more.
Cheers
On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 02:49 +0200, Igor Stasenko wrote:
Yes, of course, we could wear the dictatorship crowns and start fighting with watermills, losing the troops. But i fear this doesn't makes our chances any better to become the glorious and successful.
+1
I really prefer my leaders removing barriers and getting out of the way and letting me go where and do what I want.
Ken
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org