[Seaside] OSCON report
stephane.ducasse at free.fr
Wed Aug 2 16:23:13 UTC 2006
normally 3.9 will be out next week
at least the gamma.
What would be nice is to identify what is missing between mine and
On 1 août 06, at 15:45, Wilkes Joiner wrote:
> On 7/30/06, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse at free.fr> wrote:
>> Hi wilkes
>> I agree for Sails. ;)
>> May be we should join forces with all the videos I did and your to
>> create a decent web site (mine is really just a
>> folder) with videos showing how to develop in Smalltalk.
> Sounds good to me. Just a reminder, I have a mini tutorial at
> http://wilkesjoiner.com/. It needs to be updated and extended, and I
> need to redo the videos with sound. I was planning on waiting until
> 3.9 came out before doing that. I could do them in 3.8 and redo them
> in 3.9, though. If you like it, we can use that as a starting point.
> Another thought I had was to take the gentle introduction you wrote
> that comes in 3.8 and enhancing it to make it more interactive. I
> think both approaches are needed. The tutorials and videos are more
> passive and can pique interest, but if done well, the interactive
> tutorial could really show off Squeak and go much further in helping a
> newbie along.
> - Wilkes
>> On 30 juil. 06, at 03:48, Wilkes Joiner wrote:
>> > Thanks for the update Avi. Good to hear. I've been convinced
>> for a
>> > long time that the more attention Ruby/Python get the better off
>> > Smalltalk is. It will help to break the static branches of
>> > programming and will bring a larger mind share into the late-
>> > camping.
>> > I've got a screencast in the queue to address the issue of learning
>> > Smalltalk. This is motived by Ralph Johnson's post
>> > (http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-May/
>> > 104071.htm).
>> > Smalltalk is so radically different that the conventional ways of
>> > learning a new programming language are not applicable.
>> Tutorials and
>> > api documentation are the main ways of learning most envirionments.
>> > In Smalltalk, the trick is learning how to browse the image and
>> > experiment with running code using the workspace and the
>> > I think this is more effective once you figure out how to do it.
>> > The thing that is killing me with Rails is not being able to
>> read the
>> > code I'm relying on. I can open a text on editor on the source
>> once I
>> > find it, but this brutally primitive compared to what comes for
>> > with Smalltalk. Porting ActiveRecord to Smalltalk with its own
>> > browser would really leap frog what is available in Ruby. Someone
>> > will write a good IDE for Ruby and Rails. It's inevitable.
>> > given the heavy reliance on runtime code generation in both Ruby
>> > Rails, it seems to me to be a really challenging prospect. Not
>> > do you have to deal with dynamic typing. The definition of a lot
>> > classes only exist at runtime. In Smalltalk, we can do that,
>> but it
>> > is done far less frequently than in Ruby. I would rather just port
>> > ActiveRecord.
>> > I'll get a screencast together tomorrow and post a link on this
>> > and squeak-dev for feedback.
>> > - Wilkes
>> > BTW, I prefer Sails to StOR.
>> > On 7/29/06, Avi Bryant <avi.bryant at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Since this StOR thread seems to be about reaching an audience we
>> >> haven't had before, it's probably worth mentioning what I've
>> been up
>> >> to for the last week.
>> >> I've just returned from the O'Reilly's open source OSCON
>> >> I gave a talk on Seaside very intentionally angled not towards
>> >> convincing people to jump ship from Python/Perl/Rails etc, but
>> >> towards getting them to consider some of the basic technologies -
>> >> like the the Canvas, Component, Callback and Continuation model
>> >> never noticed all those C's before) - for use in their
>> environment of
>> >> choice. However, interest was high enough that:
>> >> - I gave a 45 minute talk to a packed room (some good photos at
>> >> http://flickr.com/photos/jacobian/)
>> >> - followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A with most people still in
>> >> the room
>> >> - followed by 3 hours of conversation with a large group at dinner
>> >> about Seaside and Smalltalk
>> >> - followed by a subset of that group tracking me down first
>> thing the
>> >> next morning and making me spend another couple of hours doing a
>> >> Squeak demo
>> >> What I found is that a) a huge number of these people have tried
>> >> Squeak before, and that b) they were all very excited by what they
>> >> saw in my (very simple) demo, but none of them had been able to
>> >> the journey themselves from the one to the other - that is, it was
>> >> impossible for them to just download a Squeak image and, with no
>> >> prior Smalltalk experience, find their way through a Hello World
>> >> Seaside app. So they decided Squeak wasn't for them. There's
>> also a
>> >> huge amount of confusion and disinformation about the state of
>> >> like version control: essentially everyone seems to believe
>> that the
>> >> image is the only way to distribute Smalltalk code, and is
>> >> understandably leery of this.
>> >> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to
>> >> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to
>> get a
>> >> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly
>> large if)
>> >> we want it and have the resources to put into it. What it would
>> >> take, I think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/
>> >> screencast that was aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience. It
>> would need
>> >> to cover:
>> >> - The browser
>> >> - The workspace
>> >> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
>> >> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial
>> >> would be fine)
>> >> An ActiveRecord-like simple O/R framework would certainly help
>> >> but I think the above is a higher priority.
>> >> Incidentally, I was asked by a few people at the conference how
>> >> the Seaside community was, and I was very pleased to be able to
>> >> "well, I almost never post to the list anymore, because other
>> >> are doing all the question answering, discussing, and committing".
>> >> That's pretty cool, and an important threshold to cross, I think.
>> >> Avi
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