[Seaside] Design of WAComponent(s)

Thu Mar 6 17:43:20 UTC 2008

Go do it!
Once you get some component I can try to rewrite my dead simple but  
boring to code
Comix collection app (search, sorted result, report table with comix  
component view inside).

Stef

On Mar 6, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Andreas Tönne wrote:

> Stephane,
>
> thank you for getting my point. ;-)
>
> All,
>
> I found the various objectives for Seaside hiding behind the answers  
> very
> interesting.
>
> No offense please but some answers show a lack of appreciation for  
> the users
> of Seaside. If you want to grow the users base of Seaside, you need to
> answer the question of Microsoft. If you dont, it will remain a  
> great tool
> from specialists for specialists. And fade in oblivion eventually.
>
> Let me get some points about my objectives straight (because some  
> jumped to
> conclusions).
>
> 1. I do not look at a "one-framework-fits-it-all" approach. I know the
> limitations of a pluggable design for components. It is extremely  
> hard!
> (designing Smalltalk applications for 21 years should qualify me to  
> say
> that) Particularly the mixing of structure, presentation and  
> interactivity
> in one XHTML structure limits the configuration choices for a general
> framework alot. (but I see a value in getting there half way)
> 2. I agree that the core should be small and needs some cleanup (and
> commenting please).
>
> Having said that, please think about this statement of Stephane for a
> minute:
>
>> I do not have the skills and time of lukas to create widgets from  
>> scratch.
>> But I imagine that I should be able to reuse them.
>
> Chapeau! That *IS* the main point. Those non-specialist that might be
> attracted to Seaside and Smalltalk are very likely not fluent in the  
> details
> of XHTML, Java-script and AJAX. Asking them to create new components  
> from
> the given examples will end in bad copy&paste programming.
>
> One interesting point is the size or specialization of predefined
> components. A login component is indeed not very interesting for a
> predefined component. Individual widgets that need to be pieced  
> together
> from primitive HTML and AJAX elements are much more promising. These
> *expected* elements for UI design are pretty much standard and hence  
> open
> for a standard implementation. I shoot for 80:20. I like to catch  
> 80% of the
> standard widgets and components and let 20% be custom implementations.
>
> Andreas
>
>
> Am 06.03.2008 17:21 Uhr schrieb "stephane ducasse" unter
> <stephane.ducasse at free.fr>:
>
>> Hi sebastian
>>
>> I still see the point of andreas.
>> I would love to have a usable report widget in which I can plug other
>> components.
>> I already sent that a while back but once I show Seaside to a guy at
>> microsoft.
>> He was impressed then after 3 min he asked me how many widgets are
>> ready to use.
>> And he was right.
>>
>> There are no incompatibilities between seaside as it is now and a  
>> cool
>> widgets set.
>> Having a cool widgets set with basic but fully working widgets would
>> be a big plus: we could
>> prototype even faster our applications. I do not have the skills and
>> time of lukas
>> to create widgets from scratch. But I imagine that I should be able  
>> to
>> reuse them.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>> On Mar 6, 2008, at 5:10 PM, Sebastian Sastre wrote:
>>
>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>> De: seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>>>> [mailto:seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre
>>>> de Philippe Marschall
>>>> Enviado el: Miércoles, 05 de Marzo de 2008 17:25
>>>> Para: Seaside - general discussion
>>>> Asunto: Re: [Seaside] Design of WAComponent(s)
>>>>
>>>> 2008/3/5, Andreas Tönne <atoenne at cincom.com>:
>>>>> ....
>>>>
>>>> I think the main point to understand here is that the components  
>>>> that
>>>> come with Seaside are not a component library or even a component
>>>> framework. They are simple stand alone components. They are not  
>>>> made
>>>> with reusabilty, configurabitlity or customyzability in mind. They
>>>> are
>>>> focused on KISS and "getting the job done" and mostly for use  
>>>> Seaside
>>>> itself. They will get you started fast but at one point sooner  
>>>> rather
>>>> than later you will hit their limits. That's ok, they're not  
>>>> supposed
>>>> to be the "be all, end all".
>>>>
>>>> The points you made IMHO apply only if you want to build a  
>>>> component
>>>> library or even component framework. That should be an addon  
>>>> protect
>>>> and has no place in Seaside-Core. Honestly I have my doubts if  
>>>> such a
>>>> such thing could ever work given the very special needs of users
>>>> concerning not only functionality but also mark up.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Philippe
>>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting you:
>>> "...They are not made with reusabilty, configurabitlity or
>>> customyzability in mind..."
>>>
>>> Quoting Seaside site:
>>> "About
>>> Seaside provides a layered set of abstractions over HTTP and HTML
>>> that let you build highly interactive web applications quickly,
>>> reusably and maintainably.
>>> ..."
>>>
>>> Note that *reusably* is the second *bold* word after quickly.
>>>
>>> And also (from same source):
>>> "...Embedded components. Stop thinking a whole page at a time;
>>> Seaside lets you build your UI as a tree of individual, stateful
>>> component objects, each encapsulating a small part of a page. Often,
>>> these can be used over and over again, within and between
>>> applications - nearly every application, for example, needs a way to
>>> present a batched list of search results, or a table with sortable
>>> columns, and Seaside includes components for these out the box..."
>>>
>>> So?
>>>
>>> Sebastian
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> seaside mailing list
>>> seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>>
>>
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>
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