[Seaside] Anybody see this?

[Sebastian Sastre]

+1. If this where only a matter of UI alone, then all where be using flash from
quite some time.
But is not.
We are all in prescence of something bigger. 
The result of the merge of two values:
1. design (mostly from the web world)
2. function (mostly from the engeneering world)
play your part in this history or be invisible, 
cheers
sebastian


> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org 
> [mailto:seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre 
> de Boris Popov
> Enviado el: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 14:40
> Para: Seaside - general discussion
> Asunto: RE: [Seaside] Anybody see this?
> 
> I guess where I can't relate to this is the part about tweaking the
> design, because if you separate coding from design and have
> professionals working in their own element on each, 
> developers can focus
> on functionality and designers can focus on design. Most usable web
> applications don't just have input fields, lists and buttons. You can
> tell I'm sceptical, but I'll be keeping an eye on things as they
> develop. There's a long history of UI builders failing for 
> many reasons
> and we have yet to see one succeed.
> 
> -Boris
> 
> -- 
> +1.604.689.0322
> DeepCove Labs Ltd.
> 4th floor 595 Howe Street
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> 
> boris at deepcovelabs.com
> 
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> [mailto:seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Eagle
> Offshore
> Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 10:32 AM
> To: Seaside - general discussion
> Subject: Re: [Seaside] Anybody see this?
> 
> Its funny but I'm hearing seasiders dismiss this technology 
> using many  
> of the same arguments that non-seasiders use to dismiss 
> seaside.  You  
> sound exactly the same as your detractors.
> 
> There are multiple backends for capuccino - including php.  
> PHP scales  
> like crazy.  Not worried.  It is not hard to imagine writing 
> a single  
> data access handler to bridge database requests and forgetting about  
> it.  There's a nice little minimal ActiveRecord for PHP I 
> just used on  
> a prototype that kicks any database access technology I've used in  
> Squeak in simplicity, usability, and speed.
> 
> They've essentially implemented Cocoa in Javascript 
> (Capuccino) and a  
> commercial product using that (http://280slides.com/), and 
> now they're  
> using that to implement Interface Builder and XCode.  They say it  
> works in all common browsers identically including IE6.
> 
> To me it looks very "turtles all the way down" but abstracts 
> away the  
> whole web trash heap.  For applications, not websites.  I see 
> a lot in  
> common with lively kernel.  SproutCore looks nice but it is 
> very much  
> a web technology.
> 
> As to the comment about the complex part of applications not 
> being the  
> interface - on web apps I spend 95% of my time tweaking UI - 
> fiddling  
> CSS rules usually or typing endless nestings of builder methods to  
> generate taggage to implement simple things.  UI is all I do 
> on the web.
> 
> Anyhow, their demo is better than any gui builder that has appeared  
> for squeak - morphic or web.
> 
> I'm not here to trash seaside - I think it rocks.  But I find the  
> render/canvas extremely tiresome to work with because at the end of  
> the day its still building web noise and I think lively 
> kernel/ html5  
> canvas and cappucino/atlas are hinting at a major shift and 
> some deep  
> thinking and reexamination is in order.  That's my point.
> 
> -Todd Blanchard
> 
> On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:57 AM, Sebastian Sastre wrote:
> 
> > It says nothing about how good is to build the application itself.  
> > Not to
> > mention scaling complexity.
> > So far I see no signal of that being better than a modern 
> version of  
> > visual
> > basic for the web.
> 
> 
> On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:12 AM, Boris Popov wrote:
> > a) any design choices beyond what they offer might be hard to  
> > implement
> > b) the complex part of today's applications isn't the 
> interface, it's
> > whatever is behind it
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