[Seaside] rails niceties equivalents?

Eagle Offshore eagleoffshore at mac.com
Fri May 15 19:50:44 UTC 2009

First, the point of my rather cranky reply was to point out how the  
other remark was not only not helpful, but off-putting.  This is how  
seaside community gets labelled "unfriendly" and "arrogant".  There's  
a lot of nice ideas in rails.  Many are worth stealing.

Seaside is a deep magical framework (the session state management  
magic and continuations) make it really hard to contribute anything at  
the core level unless they've studied and studied it.  We can't all  
devote that much time to mastering all that magic.

OK, here's a couple of things I wish were solved and have take a bit  
of time to look at and keep hitting the wall on.  At some point fairly  
soon, I promise I'll take at least one of them on and try to do  
something about it if I get a little help pointing me in the right  

I do periodically download the seaside image, and have also tried to  
get started with glass a time or two.  In the end I keep running into  
time constraints and bugs that I can't seem to get around, tools are  
in a state of flux, etc.... and I conclude its just not stable enough  
yet.  But I keep checking back.

The one thing that is consistently requested (and I definitely need)  
is ways to do RESTful dispatching.  The usual reply is that it is done  
in Pier and I could download Pier and look at that.  I've done this  
and browsed code for a few hours, and still come up empty about how to  
do this in generic Seaside.  I think the core maintainers have to do  
this - only they have the knowledge.

In general, tracking down how URLs get built and routed in Seaside is  
HARD (at least it was in the previous versions - I haven't looked at  
the latest one).  Rails has a really GREAT convention of making urls a  
standard REST format of scheme://server/controller/action/id and a  
"routes" file for customizing this.  This is a great idea.  I love  
it.  I now miss it everywhere else I work.  It has to be easier to  
customize URL generation in seaside in a centralized way.  Maybe I'm  
too stupid for this, but every time I set out to do this, I get lost,  
deadlines loom, and I fall back on what I know will work (rails or  

Problem 2 - and this is huge.  No horizontal scalability pattern has  
emerged.  Rails has Mongrel and some really slick sharing via  
memcached (which actually, if I were to do something for seaside -  
adding a memcached client would be a giant win).  With all application  
state stored in memcache storage, I can update and bounce the rails  
apps at any time without hosing a single session.  GLASS looks like it  
may well solve this problem - except my hosting providers don't  
provide 64 bit machines and I get lost every time I try to get started  
with GLASS because I hit some half baked tool problem and give up.

OK, actually, since I agree that code talks - tell me if anyone is  
doing a memcache client, and if not, I'll try to do one and see about  
applying it to shared session storage - because state in the image  
sucks for production and reliability.  I want any image in a pool to  
be able to fail at any time and not have a single user notice.  Until  
it does this, I can't consider it for real work.

-Todd Blanchard

On May 15, 2009, at 12:16 PM, stephane ducasse wrote:

> Hi Todd and others
> So why don't you offer code. Start small and step by step help.
> Why this discussion comes from time to time?
> You cannot ask lukas and julian to speed up, make seaside uses less
> memory, clean and improve the Javascript and in addition offer  
> database
> supports.....
> Something I have the impression that the seaside community is mainly  
> people
> complaining but not really offering support and new code.
> Sorry to be harsh but this is not like that we will improve.
> Stef
>> Yes, I know. That's why my last three projects have been done in  
>> rails.
>> Sometimes I wish seaside would copy more and "innovate" less.
>> -Todd Blanchard
>> On May 14, 2009, at 7:06 AM, Philippe Marschall wrote:
>>> Seaside is not Rails in Smalltalk.
>>> Cheers
>>> Philippe
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