This is just the wrong place, folks. Wrong wrong wrong. There are many
many places to discuss these things.

I, however, feel very strongly that I must oppose, vocally, racist
claptrap whenever it occurs where I am present.

On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Rob Withers wrote:
[snip]
> At it's core, this is about two civilizations clashing for dominance
> in the world.  One is a progressive, free, liberal society, supporting
> modern concepts such as equal opportunity for women and low barriers
> to social mobility.  The other is an anachronistic, conservative
> culture, that is "in mortal fear" that our culture undermines their
> basis for existence.  How can they effectively maintain a cruel system
> of government (check out Amnesty International if you are interested
> in the way Taliban, for example, executes governance of it's state),
> if their people are aware of our freedoms.  Only by calling us as the
> Great Satan and declaring Jihad.  Nothing else is rational to their
> minds.

This is total bullshit. I will NOT debate it. Rob said it, and I hearby
oppose it. That doesn't mean I endore the Taliban or its horror, but the
old "two civilization" line is simply a lie. 

[snip]
> Let us consider the current events in this light and realize that the
> perceived abuses in the world, by the reigning superpower, is balanced
> by two things.  The US' "Marshall Plans" to clean up historically
> Germany, Japan, and Europe, and more recently many other countries in
> the world.  The scale of abuses by countries such as Afghanistan far,
> far outweigh our actions, IMHO.

More 1 million dead in Iraq as a direct result of our clearly illegal
actions, actions which had such destruction as its intent.

>  Consider how the Taliban came to
> power and how they have solidified that power.

By US support. Yes.

[snip]
> sorry for dragging this on, but in this case I hereby turn in my suit
> of liberalism and go hard-line conservative.

Fine. Do it elsewhere.

If anyone has a problem, or wants backing evidence for wha	t I wrote,
contact me off list. If anyone provides even marginally convicing
arguments and evidence that I'm wrong, I will publically recant. Now, if
we all agree to be quiet on list about this, I shall be happier and I
shall not feel forced to get in everyone's face.

Cheers,
Bijan Parsia.