On May 9, 2008, at 1:17 AM, tim Rowledge wrote:
>
> On 8-May-08, at 2:50 PM, Merik Voswinkel wrote:
>>
>>
>> I personally think it is a great loss that the fun bits are gone. I  
>> can reload them but most users can and will not.
>> But more importantly, the fun stuff are the things that will get  
>> Squeak and Croquet adopted by the large majority of users.
>
> Well the fun stuff isn't *gone* it's just not included in the  
> default image referred to on the relevant webpage. We could 'solve'  
> that issue (and I agree that it is an issue of some concern) simply  
> by altering the download page to show-
> the funsqueak image as the recommended download for newcomers
> the developer image as one suggested for typical younger developers
> the base image as one best for us old farts that don't like  
> autocompletion, flashing lights and the other assorted bling.
> ... and of course any other pre-built systems of interest, such as  
> seaside setups.
>
> A subsidiary issue that those of you that are fun-enthusiasts must  
> get together to solve is keeping the fun stuff alive and working. If  
> you think it is important, you have to treat it as such and maintain  
> it. No one else has any obligation to do so.

Yes, it could be easily solved by renaming FunSqueak to become  
'Squeak' and have all the developer image stuff in there as well.
But we seem to want to release images for ourselves nowadays, not one  
for the general public anymore, like the Squeak Central team did.

And we are forgetting attraction number one: Croquet. That MUST be in  
the base image, with an prei-nstalled postcard pointing to the first  
Croquet space that  should always be online and always connect. And  
some (Etoys) projects as well, like in Alan's great demo's. And It  
would be even better with Sophie, Scratch and Plopp in there, but that  
is sadly a bridge to far.

My main point is that new end users do not do anything more than  
download 'The Squeak release', they will not visit mailing lists or  
dig through blogs and wikis to find out what more is possible. They  
can not load or unload stuff, much to hard. Debuggers must not appear  
while exploring for the first time. They certainly won't get together  
to form there own image as Tim suggests.
If we do not release this "plug and play one-click fun Squeak  
(including all developer tools)" that must simply be called Squeak (or  
Croquet) nobody will and we we basically say that we do not want  
endusers to enjoy what we have built these last 11 years.

On May 9, 2008, at 1:17 AM, Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
>
> Again, FunSqueak have this plus MorphicWrappers, MathMorphs, Seaside  
> and
> Pier, and many more...
>
> My plan is put more fun things and all people ask and I manage to  
> have into
>
> If Matthew work is complete, 3.11 don't have traits.
> And we move Etoys , Universes, Installer  and more to trusted  
> repositories.
>
> In the long run , you have Squeak 4.0 and could install things at  
> will.
> Wish Etoys ? Load it
> Wish Seaside or Aida ? Load it
> Wish Sound, Speech, etc ? Load it
> Don't like or don't need Squeakmap, Universes or Installer ? Don't  
> load it
> Don't like or don't need Traits ? Don't load it
> Don't like a complete Sunit and all Test we have into 3.10 ? You  
> could win
> some space if have handicapped hardware.
> The idea is you develop with Damien dev image , do a .mcz and load  
> it onto a
> Squeak 4.0, put into a One Click VM from Sophie and presto, have a  
> ready to
> run on all major OS

So my point again Edgar, no 'Wish Etoys' Load it, this is where you  
have lost all those new users already. How would they know what they  
want?

All this discussion about Squeak 3.10 and 4.0 has only a relevance for  
our last window of opportunity for Croquet/Squeak to become widely  
seen and adopted. Within 4 years from now the VPRI team will release  
their new platform that will surpass Croquet/Squeak.

Actually, I do not really disagree with any of both your arguments for  
'our' releases at all. You all do great work!
But I am trying to make you see it from the 'marketing' point of view  
(yuk) , the view that we must take if we want to draw in first time  
end users.
So lets not forget Croquet than, the number one attractor these days.

Thanks again for all you efforts!

Merik