[Squeakfoundation]Order of business ...

[Jimmie Houchin]

Cees de Groot wrote:
> Jimmie Houchin <jhouchin@texoma.net> said:
>>While we may not have a quote "best of breed" app in any particular area 
>>as you say we have many (I hate to put this way) "good enough" apps.
> 
> I *love* to put it this way. MS Office and StarOffice are best-of-breed
> apps, in their market. They're bulky, bloated monsters and no-one uses
> more than 5% of their features. IMNSHO, Squeak should aim at supplying
> 'good enough' apps and giving the user - or at least the nearest techie -
> the means to make it 'just what I need' apps.

While many might consider MS Word a best of breed app. I believe MS 
killed the best of breed app along Word's (MS's) path of destruction. 
Because of its bulk, bloat and kitchen-sink manner I have a hard time 
classifying it as best of breed. I may be a minority. Oh well.

I personally use MS Works on my Windows box and Apple Works on my Macs 
and feel few constraints with regard to word processing. Most 
limitations could be overcome without coming near approaching MS Word.

>>I believe these apps and others (as they come) will grow and improve as 
>>3.4 matures.
> 
> Improve yes. I think I can do without the growth ;-)

Growth can occur intelligently and without bloat. That's one nice thing 
about Squeak. If an app begins to bloat, we can do something about it.

>>I would love to use Celeste but its UI doesn't 
>>currently meet my needs.
> 
> You don't like the GUI. I don't like the fact that it doesn't IMAP. Alice
> doesn't like the fact that it doesn't do full-text search. Bob doesn't like
> the fact that it doesn't have an attachment database with preview buttons and
> free indexing feels. Carol doesn't like the fact that it doesn't do her
> laundry. 
> 
> Now, how are we going to make sure that Celeste becomes to everyone what
> everyone wants without making it a bloated monster? I already read my mail
> with a bloated monster (Mozilla), I don't need Celeste for that. Here lies the
> challenge, I think.

I think we are up to the challenge. I too use that bloated email client.

>>Because apps in Squeak are in a live environment they can improve 
>>magnitudes in short order.
> 
> Absolutely. However, pointing this out in a marketing campaign steps
> firmly on the long toes of developers that work in language D+#^, who
> are certain that their language is the most productive one in the world...

This is where I believe as I stated previously we don't need to be 
confrontational. Stating a fact about Squeak in a general community 
forum is lifting Squeak up and enlightening others about Squeak. It is 
not a means of putting down any other language. This isn't about putting 
other languages down, but lifting Squeak up. Squeak is far more than a 
language.

In general forums like LWN where a multiplicity of languages are 
reported on there should be no reason for offense over simple reportings 
of Squeak Community activities, new apps, mailing list discussions, etc. 
Or simply a link to the latest Squeakly News. No need for us to ever 
bring up other languages in our statements about Squeak. We are neither 
doing nor initiating a comparison. We can never prevent someone from 
being offended should they choose to be so. Oh well. They can grow up, 
and we can move on.

>>I know I've seen many from the Python community come and go. I've stayed 
>>because I saw the potential which I've seen nowhere else. The potential 
>>is unequaled.
> 
> That's because the Python community people expected a great language, a
> great development environment, and are used to great documentation. They
> didn't find all that and decided to stick with Python. Lesson learnt:
> marketing/sales is for a big part about managing expectations. If we entice
> them with a development environment and give them Croquest, even though
> Croquet is the greatest thing since the greatest thing since sliced bread,
> they are going to turn away. 

That is all true. Documentation and tutorials are an area in which we 
could improve. I believe we will. And I believe we will attract people 
who can and will contribute in those areas.

One simple fact is that we don't need everybody. :)

If someone comes our way and isn't happy with whatever and has no 
intention of helping us improve whatever, then we and they are better 
off with them returning to whence they came.
And that is alright. Nothing wrong about it.

Natural growth and attrition are better than artificial growth and 
traumatic attrition.

I would much rather see simple educational and informational pieces out 
in the general communities. Statements beyond those areas can occur 
within our own community and our own materials. No one should be 
surprised to come into our home and see us speaking proudly of our 
chosen product, tool, environment, our Squeak.

We want natural growth with right people.
Those people are self chosen. They aren't chosen by us.
But we do need educational and informational literature out there so 
that the right people can be exposed to us.

Uh oh. Run on post. Better stop. :)

Jimmie Houchin