[Newbies] Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1
Yoshiki Ohshima
Yoshiki.Ohshima at acm.org
Tue Aug 2 23:45:36 UTC 2022
Ah, if that is the case, the Nebraska system would be a good starting point. There are some logistic issues like how to set a server and let others connect, etc. and I don’t know how well it is maintained…. But when I was paying attention to it many years ago, Nebraska did work reasonably well.
-- Yoshiki
> On Aug 2, 2022, at 4:06 PM, Ralph Boland <rpboland at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Very interesting and doubtless useful but
> overkill for what I need.
>
> All I want is for a single image (with a single screen
> though perhaps multiple duplicate screens) to have
> multiple mice and multiple keyboard inputs.
> Some operating system help is likely required for this.
> I am currently using Linux but would eventually be able
> to work on any operating system that Squeak does.
>
> I guess this could be used for multiple developers to
> work on the same image at the same time and I guess
> this would be useful. But this is not what I am looking for.
>
> I want to develop multi-user games (maximum 4 players)
> playing in real time so I need up to 4 mice and perhaps 4 keyboards.
> These games are for 4-10 year olds who would likely all be in
> the same room ideally on the same computer. So networking
> capability isn't necessary or the ideal way to go.
>
> Is anybody doing any work in this direction?
>
> Ralph Boland
>
>
>
>
>> On Tue, 2 Aug 2022 at 15:02,
>> <beginners-request at lists.squeakfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jiri R.)
>> 2. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)
>> 3. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jecel Assumpcao Jr)
>> 4. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:30:27 +0200
>> From: "Jiri R." <jiriq at icloud.com>
>> To: Squeak Begginers <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> Subject: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
>> Message-ID: <17C82321-EE23-497E-9E5D-D877ABDB8590 at icloud.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The is croquet.io <http://croquet.io/> which allows "multiple users to work or play together within a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is possible to take a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed environment. So multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).
>>
>> Jiri
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700
>> From: Yoshiki Ohshima <Yoshiki.Ohshima at acm.org>
>> To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
>> about Squeak." <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAHC3jCOEHF9N6n7Oi14HLTzi5E+ruHqKbp17v87bD+LjDp1nCQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> (I am working on a few croquet.io projects.) Trying to run the current way
>> of how Squeak works and making it "croquetified" has some challenges. One
>> is that a Squeak image typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that
>> means that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network
>> now and then can be quite expensive. (At the same time, as we know, most of
>> the contents in an image is read only; we can imagine to have a different
>> image structure where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff
>> is exchanged.)
>>
>> Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many issues
>> around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the current
>> Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this regard.
>>
>> An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a
>> translator from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on
>> that idea (and other things):
>>
>> https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353
>>
>> If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of what I
>> was talking about. The implementation of it is available here:
>>
>> https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom
>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. <jiriq at icloud.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> The is croquet.io which allows "multiple users to work or play together
>>> within a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is
>>> possible to take a squeak image and make it *that* single shared
>>> distributed environment. So multiple users would have some sort of UI (with
>>> system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a single underlining
>>> model (the squeak image).
>>>
>>> Jiri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Beginners mailing list
>>> Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -- Yoshiki
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 17:13:46 -0300
>> From: "Jecel Assumpcao Jr" <jecel at merlintec.com>
>> To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
>> about Squeak." <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
>> Message-ID: <20220802201350.B33223E0E77 at proxy.email-ssl.com.br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700
>>> (I am working on a few croquet.io projects.)
>>
>> Great!
>>
>>> Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making
>>> it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image
>>> typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means
>>> that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network
>>> now and then can be quite expensive.
>>
>> The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of content
>> like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.
>>
>>> (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is
>>> read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure
>>> where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is exchanged.)
>>
>> Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files
>> (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored over
>> and over on disk or copied over the network.
>>
>> Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in
>> read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you
>> created yourself. So it is certainly possible.
>>
>>> Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many
>>> issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the
>>> current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this regard.
>>
>> I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not aware of
>> any problems.
>>
>>> An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a translator
>>> from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on that idea (and
>>> other things):
>>> https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353
>>>
>>> If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of what I was
>>> talking about. The implementation of it is available here:
>>> https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom
>>
>> Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks from
>> "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of
>> "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.
>>
>> That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in
>> Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot less
>> work than dealing with Javascript.
>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> The is croquet.io which allows "multiple users to work or play together within
>>> a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is possible to take
>>> a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed environment. So
>>> multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser, workspaces, ..)
>>> and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).
>>
>> The current croquet.io is a new implementation in Javascript of the
>> ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was forked
>> as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current
>> commercial 3DICC.
>>
>> An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow
>> people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects. There
>> was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very
>> interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.
>>
>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901
>>
>> http://www.opencobalt.net/
>>
>> https://www.3dicc.com/
>>
>> https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356
>>
>> -- Jecel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:02:04 -0700
>> From: Yoshiki Ohshima <Yoshiki.Ohshima at acm.org>
>> To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
>> about Squeak." <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAHC3jCMBbbeQOm+5eUzy3qs0ddPa2vU7AX+KVMOmX0rNJeP17g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 1:14 PM Jecel Assumpcao Jr <jecel at merlintec.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700
>>>> (I am working on a few croquet.io projects.)
>>>
>>> Great!
>>>
>>>> Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making
>>>> it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image
>>>> typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means
>>>> that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network
>>>> now and then can be quite expensive.
>>>
>>> The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of content
>>> like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.
>>>
>>
>> Well, but an elaborated avatar alone can be bigger than 16MB; so yes, the
>> landscape has changed a bit.
>>
>>>
>>>> (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is
>>>> read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure
>>>> where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is
>>> exchanged.)
>>>
>>> Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files
>>> (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored over
>>> and over on disk or copied over the network.
>>>
>>> Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in
>>> read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you
>>> created yourself. So it is certainly possible.
>>>
>>
>> And there are many others who would chime in to say that "Oh, I did that a
>> copy on write Smalltalk thingy"^^;
>>
>>>
>>>> Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many
>>>> issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the
>>>> current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this
>>> regard.
>>>
>>> I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not aware of
>>> any problems.
>>>
>>
>> Another thing, besides transcendental functions, is that a whileTrue: kind
>> of loop needs to break away at the same logical time, and Cmd-. by one
>> person would break out at the same time, etc.
>>
>>
>>>> An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a
>>> translator
>>>> from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on that
>>> idea (and
>>>> other things):
>>>> https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353
>>>>
>>>> If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of what
>>> I was
>>>> talking about. The implementation of it is available here:
>>>> https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom
>>>
>>> Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks from
>>> "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of
>>> "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.
>>>
>>> That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in
>>> Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot less
>>> work than dealing with Javascript.
>>>
>>
>> I am happy to see if somebody tries to do the full Squeak image based
>> environment that can do collaborative development and all that, but
>> looking at the old Croquet architecture without having a real model view
>> separation sounds very hard to me, unfortunately.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> The is croquet.io which allows "multiple users to work or play together
>>> within
>>>> a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is
>>> possible to take
>>>> a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed environment. So
>>>> multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser,
>>> workspaces, ..)
>>>> and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).
>>>
>>> The current croquet.io is a new implementation in Javascript of the
>>> ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was forked
>>> as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current
>>> commercial 3DICC.
>>>
>>> An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow
>>> people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects. There
>>> was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very
>>> interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.
>>>
>>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901
>>>
>>> http://www.opencobalt.net/
>>>
>>> https://www.3dicc.com/
>>>
>>> https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356
>>>
>>> -- Jecel
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Beginners mailing list
>>> Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -- Yoshiki
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1
>> *****************************************
>
>
>
> --
> Any artist who remains true to himself becomes a work of art himself,
> because that is one of the most difficult things to do. Lenard Cohen
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