[Newbies] Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 2
Yoshiki Ohshima
Yoshiki.Ohshima at acm.org
Wed Aug 3 18:43:50 UTC 2022
On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 10:15 PM Ralph Boland <rpboland at gmail.com> wrote:
> I took a quick look at Nebraska. I seems to allow
> multiple users using the same image to have distinct
> screens. I only need data for one screen to leave the computer.
> This data would then need to be split so the same data can
> be sent to as many as 4 screens, one for each user who see
> the same thing on their computer screens. Thus output as
> far as smalltalk is concerned is single user. What is needed is for input
> to be multi-user. (up to 4 mice and perhaps up to 4 keyboards
> though the need for multi-user keyboards is much less; something
> that can wait until later)
>
Nebraska has one "server", which is just a Morphic world. When a client
connects to the server, what the client gets afterwards is a sequence of
drawing commands from the server (say, fill a rectangle of this size with
this color). So the screen shown on the client is basically the same with
the server. (so that should fit your requirement). The input events from a
client are simply sent to the server and the multiple input support of
Morphic in general handles them okay.
So with 5 or 4 computers, one is designated to be a server and other
clients connect to the server, and it should work as you described.
>
> Ralph.
>
> On Tue, 2 Aug 2022 at 17:45,
> <beginners-request at lists.squeakfoundation.org> wrote:
> >
> > Send Beginners mailing list submissions to
> > beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> >
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Beginners digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1 (Ralph Boland)
> > 2. Re: Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1 (Yoshiki Ohshima)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 17:05:29 -0600
> > From: Ralph Boland <rpboland at gmail.com>
> > To: beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAPMV+mzZp5Xr=_
> TX990xiGAWv1nW2garhiO+LkVEYMXcazDwDg at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Very interesting and doubtless useful but
> > overkill for what I need.
> >
> > All I want is for a single image (with a single screen
> > though perhaps multiple duplicate screens) to have
> > multiple mice and multiple keyboard inputs.
> > Some operating system help is likely required for this.
> > I am currently using Linux but would eventually be able
> > to work on any operating system that Squeak does.
> >
> > I guess this could be used for multiple developers to
> > work on the same image at the same time and I guess
> > this would be useful. But this is not what I am looking for.
> >
> > I want to develop multi-user games (maximum 4 players)
> > playing in real time so I need up to 4 mice and perhaps 4 keyboards.
> > These games are for 4-10 year olds who would likely all be in
> > the same room ideally on the same computer. So networking
> > capability isn't necessary or the ideal way to go.
> >
> > Is anybody doing any work in this direction?
> >
> > Ralph Boland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2 Aug 2022 at 15:02,
> > <beginners-request at lists.squeakfoundation.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Send Beginners mailing list submissions to
> > > beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > beginners-request at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > beginners-owner at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of Beginners digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jiri R.)
> > > 2. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)
> > > 3. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jecel Assumpcao Jr)
> > > 4. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:30:27 +0200
> > > From: "Jiri R." <jiriq at icloud.com>
> > > To: Squeak Begginers <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > > Subject: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
> > > Message-ID: <17C82321-EE23-497E-9E5D-D877ABDB8590 at icloud.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The is croquet.io <http://croquet.io/> which allows "multiple users
> to work or play together within a single shared distributed environment". I
> wonder whether it is possible to take a squeak image and make it that
> single shared distributed environment. So multiple users would have some
> sort of UI (with system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a
> single underlining model (the squeak image).
> > >
> > > Jiri
> > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL: <
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/45b38fba/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700
> > > From: Yoshiki Ohshima <Yoshiki.Ohshima at acm.org>
> > > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
> > > about Squeak." <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <
> CAHC3jCOEHF9N6n7Oi14HLTzi5E+ruHqKbp17v87bD+LjDp1nCQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > (I am working on a few croquet.io projects.) Trying to run the
> current way
> > > of how Squeak works and making it "croquetified" has some challenges.
> One
> > > is that a Squeak image typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and
> that
> > > means that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the
> network
> > > now and then can be quite expensive. (At the same time, as we know,
> most of
> > > the contents in an image is read only; we can imagine to have a
> different
> > > image structure where the read only part is separate and only the new
> stuff
> > > is exchanged.)
> > >
> > > Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many
> issues
> > > around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the current
> > > Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this regard.
> > >
> > > An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a
> > > translator from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk
> recently on
> > > that idea (and other things):
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353
> > >
> > > If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of
> what I
> > > was talking about. The implementation of it is available here:
> > >
> > > https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. <jiriq at icloud.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > The is croquet.io which allows "multiple users to work or play
> together
> > > > within a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it
> is
> > > > possible to take a squeak image and make it *that* single shared
> > > > distributed environment. So multiple users would have some sort of
> UI (with
> > > > system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a single
> underlining
> > > > model (the squeak image).
> > > >
> > > > Jiri
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Beginners mailing list
> > > > Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > -- Yoshiki
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL: <
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/9fb59335/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 17:13:46 -0300
> > > From: "Jecel Assumpcao Jr" <jecel at merlintec.com>
> > > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
> > > about Squeak." <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
> > > Message-ID: <20220802201350.B33223E0E77 at proxy.email-ssl.com.br>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > >
> > > Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700
> > > > (I am working on a few croquet.io projects.)
> > >
> > > Great!
> > >
> > > > Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making
> > > > it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image
> > > > typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means
> > > > that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network
> > > > now and then can be quite expensive.
> > >
> > > The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of content
> > > like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.
> > >
> > > > (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is
> > > > read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure
> > > > where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is
> exchanged.)
> > >
> > > Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files
> > > (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored over
> > > and over on disk or copied over the network.
> > >
> > > Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in
> > > read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you
> > > created yourself. So it is certainly possible.
> > >
> > > > Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many
> > > > issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the
> > > > current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this
> regard.
> > >
> > > I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not aware
> of
> > > any problems.
> > >
> > > > An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or
> a translator
> > > > from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on
> that idea (and
> > > > other things):
> > > > https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353
> > > >
> > > > If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of
> what I was
> > > > talking about. The implementation of it is available here:
> > > > https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom
> > >
> > > Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks
> from
> > > "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of
> > > "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.
> > >
> > > That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in
> > > Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot less
> > > work than dealing with Javascript.
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > The is croquet.io which allows "multiple users to work or play
> together within
> > > > a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is
> possible to take
> > > > a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed
> environment. So
> > > > multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser,
> workspaces, ..)
> > > > and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).
> > >
> > > The current croquet.io is a new implementation in Javascript of the
> > > ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was forked
> > > as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current
> > > commercial 3DICC.
> > >
> > > An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow
> > > people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects.
> There
> > > was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very
> > > interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.
> > >
> > > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901
> > >
> > > http://www.opencobalt.net/
> > >
> > > https://www.3dicc.com/
> > >
> > > https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356
> > >
> > > -- Jecel
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:02:04 -0700
> > > From: Yoshiki Ohshima <Yoshiki.Ohshima at acm.org>
> > > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
> > > about Squeak." <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <
> CAHC3jCMBbbeQOm+5eUzy3qs0ddPa2vU7AX+KVMOmX0rNJeP17g at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 1:14 PM Jecel Assumpcao Jr <jecel at merlintec.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700
> > > > > (I am working on a few croquet.io projects.)
> > > >
> > > > Great!
> > > >
> > > > > Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making
> > > > > it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image
> > > > > typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means
> > > > > that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network
> > > > > now and then can be quite expensive.
> > > >
> > > > The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of
> content
> > > > like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, but an elaborated avatar alone can be bigger than 16MB; so yes,
> the
> > > landscape has changed a bit.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is
> > > > > read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure
> > > > > where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is
> > > > exchanged.)
> > > >
> > > > Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files
> > > > (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored
> over
> > > > and over on disk or copied over the network.
> > > >
> > > > Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in
> > > > read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you
> > > > created yourself. So it is certainly possible.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And there are many others who would chime in to say that "Oh, I did
> that a
> > > copy on write Smalltalk thingy"^^;
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many
> > > > > issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but
> the
> > > > > current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in
> this
> > > > regard.
> > > >
> > > > I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not
> aware of
> > > > any problems.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Another thing, besides transcendental functions, is that a whileTrue:
> kind
> > > of loop needs to break away at the same logical time, and Cmd-. by one
> > > person would break out at the same time, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > > > An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine,
> or a
> > > > translator
> > > > > from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on
> that
> > > > idea (and
> > > > > other things):
> > > > > https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353
> > > > >
> > > > > If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist
> of what
> > > > I was
> > > > > talking about. The implementation of it is available here:
> > > > > https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks
> from
> > > > "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of
> > > > "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.
> > > >
> > > > That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in
> > > > Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot
> less
> > > > work than dealing with Javascript.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am happy to see if somebody tries to do the full Squeak image based
> > > environment that can do collaborative development and all that, but
> > > looking at the old Croquet architecture without having a real model
> view
> > > separation sounds very hard to me, unfortunately.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > The is croquet.io which allows "multiple users to work or play
> together
> > > > within
> > > > > a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is
> > > > possible to take
> > > > > a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed
> environment. So
> > > > > multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser,
> > > > workspaces, ..)
> > > > > and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak
> image).
> > > >
> > > > The current croquet.io is a new implementation in Javascript of the
> > > > ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was
> forked
> > > > as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current
> > > > commercial 3DICC.
> > > >
> > > > An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow
> > > > people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects.
> There
> > > > was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very
> > > > interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.
> > > >
> > > > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901
> > > >
> > > > http://www.opencobalt.net/
> > > >
> > > > https://www.3dicc.com/
> > > >
> > > > https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356
> > > >
> > > > -- Jecel
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Beginners mailing list
> > > > Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > -- Yoshiki
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL: <
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/b11e9a11/attachment.html
> >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Subject: Digest Footer
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Beginners mailing list
> > > Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > End of Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1
> > > *****************************************
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Any artist who remains true to himself becomes a work of art himself,
> > because that is one of the most difficult things to do. Lenard Cohen
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 16:45:36 -0700
> > From: Yoshiki Ohshima <Yoshiki.Ohshima at acm.org>
> > To: ralphpboland at gmail.com, "A friendly place to get answers to even
> > the most basic questions about Squeak."
> > <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1
> > Message-ID: <49E6CBC7-1061-433E-9888-BCB7D28D3A3B at acm.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> > Ah, if that is the case, the Nebraska system would be a good starting
> point. There are some logistic issues like how to set a server and let
> others connect, etc. and I don’t know how well it is maintained…. But when
> I was paying attention to it many years ago, Nebraska did work reasonably
> well.
> >
> > -- Yoshiki
> >
> > > On Aug 2, 2022, at 4:06 PM, Ralph Boland <rpboland at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Very interesting and doubtless useful but
> > > overkill for what I need.
> > >
> > > All I want is for a single image (with a single screen
> > > though perhaps multiple duplicate screens) to have
> > > multiple mice and multiple keyboard inputs.
> > > Some operating system help is likely required for this.
> > > I am currently using Linux but would eventually be able
> > > to work on any operating system that Squeak does.
> > >
> > > I guess this could be used for multiple developers to
> > > work on the same image at the same time and I guess
> > > this would be useful. But this is not what I am looking for.
> > >
> > > I want to develop multi-user games (maximum 4 players)
> > > playing in real time so I need up to 4 mice and perhaps 4 keyboards.
> > > These games are for 4-10 year olds who would likely all be in
> > > the same room ideally on the same computer. So networking
> > > capability isn't necessary or the ideal way to go.
> > >
> > > Is anybody doing any work in this direction?
> > >
> > > Ralph Boland
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Tue, 2 Aug 2022 at 15:02,
> > >> <beginners-request at lists.squeakfoundation.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Send Beginners mailing list submissions to
> > >> beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > >>
> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > >> beginners-request at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > >>
> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> > >> beginners-owner at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > >>
> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > >> than "Re: Contents of Beginners digest..."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Today's Topics:
> > >>
> > >> 1. Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jiri R.)
> > >> 2. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)
> > >> 3. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jecel Assumpcao Jr)
> > >> 4. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 1
> > >> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:30:27 +0200
> > >> From: "Jiri R." <jiriq at icloud.com>
> > >> To: Squeak Begginers <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > >> Subject: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
> > >> Message-ID: <17C82321-EE23-497E-9E5D-D877ABDB8590 at icloud.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> The is croquet.io <http://croquet.io/> which allows "multiple users
> to work or play together within a single shared distributed environment". I
> wonder whether it is possible to take a squeak image and make it that
> single shared distributed environment. So multiple users would have some
> sort of UI (with system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a
> single underlining model (the squeak image).
> > >>
> > >> Jiri
> > >>
> > >> -------------- next part --------------
> > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > >> URL: <
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/45b38fba/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 2
> > >> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700
> > >> From: Yoshiki Ohshima <Yoshiki.Ohshima at acm.org>
> > >> To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
> > >> about Squeak." <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >> <
> CAHC3jCOEHF9N6n7Oi14HLTzi5E+ruHqKbp17v87bD+LjDp1nCQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>
> > >> Hi
> > >>
> > >> (I am working on a few croquet.io projects.) Trying to run the
> current way
> > >> of how Squeak works and making it "croquetified" has some challenges.
> One
> > >> is that a Squeak image typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory,
> and that
> > >> means that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the
> network
> > >> now and then can be quite expensive. (At the same time, as we know,
> most of
> > >> the contents in an image is read only; we can imagine to have a
> different
> > >> image structure where the read only part is separate and only the new
> stuff
> > >> is exchanged.)
> > >>
> > >> Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many
> issues
> > >> around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the current
> > >> Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this regard.
> > >>
> > >> An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a
> > >> translator from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk
> recently on
> > >> that idea (and other things):
> > >>
> > >> https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353
> > >>
> > >> If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of
> what I
> > >> was talking about. The implementation of it is available here:
> > >>
> > >> https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom
> > >>
> > >>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. <jiriq at icloud.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> The is croquet.io which allows "multiple users to work or play
> together
> > >>> within a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it
> is
> > >>> possible to take a squeak image and make it *that* single shared
> > >>> distributed environment. So multiple users would have some sort of
> UI (with
> > >>> system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a single
> underlining
> > >>> model (the squeak image).
> > >>>
> > >>> Jiri
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Beginners mailing list
> > >>> Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > >>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> -- Yoshiki
> > >> -------------- next part --------------
> > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > >> URL: <
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/9fb59335/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 3
> > >> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 17:13:46 -0300
> > >> From: "Jecel Assumpcao Jr" <jecel at merlintec.com>
> > >> To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
> > >> about Squeak." <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
> > >> Message-ID: <20220802201350.B33223E0E77 at proxy.email-ssl.com.br>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > >>
> > >> Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700
> > >>> (I am working on a few croquet.io projects.)
> > >>
> > >> Great!
> > >>
> > >>> Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making
> > >>> it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image
> > >>> typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means
> > >>> that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network
> > >>> now and then can be quite expensive.
> > >>
> > >> The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of
> content
> > >> like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.
> > >>
> > >>> (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is
> > >>> read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure
> > >>> where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is
> exchanged.)
> > >>
> > >> Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files
> > >> (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored over
> > >> and over on disk or copied over the network.
> > >>
> > >> Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in
> > >> read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you
> > >> created yourself. So it is certainly possible.
> > >>
> > >>> Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many
> > >>> issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the
> > >>> current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this
> regard.
> > >>
> > >> I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not aware
> of
> > >> any problems.
> > >>
> > >>> An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or
> a translator
> > >>> from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on
> that idea (and
> > >>> other things):
> > >>> https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353
> > >>>
> > >>> If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of
> what I was
> > >>> talking about. The implementation of it is available here:
> > >>> https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks
> from
> > >> "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of
> > >> "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.
> > >>
> > >> That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in
> > >> Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot less
> > >> work than dealing with Javascript.
> > >>
> > >>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>> The is croquet.io which allows "multiple users to work or play
> together within
> > >>> a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is
> possible to take
> > >>> a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed
> environment. So
> > >>> multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser,
> workspaces, ..)
> > >>> and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).
> > >>
> > >> The current croquet.io is a new implementation in Javascript of the
> > >> ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was
> forked
> > >> as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current
> > >> commercial 3DICC.
> > >>
> > >> An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow
> > >> people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects.
> There
> > >> was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very
> > >> interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.
> > >>
> > >> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901
> > >>
> > >> http://www.opencobalt.net/
> > >>
> > >> https://www.3dicc.com/
> > >>
> > >> https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356
> > >>
> > >> -- Jecel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 4
> > >> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:02:04 -0700
> > >> From: Yoshiki Ohshima <Yoshiki.Ohshima at acm.org>
> > >> To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
> > >> about Squeak." <beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >> <
> CAHC3jCMBbbeQOm+5eUzy3qs0ddPa2vU7AX+KVMOmX0rNJeP17g at mail.gmail.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 1:14 PM Jecel Assumpcao Jr <
> jecel at merlintec.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700
> > >>>> (I am working on a few croquet.io projects.)
> > >>>
> > >>> Great!
> > >>>
> > >>>> Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making
> > >>>> it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image
> > >>>> typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means
> > >>>> that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network
> > >>>> now and then can be quite expensive.
> > >>>
> > >>> The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of
> content
> > >>> like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Well, but an elaborated avatar alone can be bigger than 16MB; so yes,
> the
> > >> landscape has changed a bit.
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>> (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is
> > >>>> read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure
> > >>>> where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is
> > >>> exchanged.)
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files
> > >>> (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored
> over
> > >>> and over on disk or copied over the network.
> > >>>
> > >>> Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in
> > >>> read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you
> > >>> created yourself. So it is certainly possible.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> And there are many others who would chime in to say that "Oh, I did
> that a
> > >> copy on write Smalltalk thingy"^^;
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many
> > >>>> issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the
> > >>>> current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this
> > >>> regard.
> > >>>
> > >>> I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not
> aware of
> > >>> any problems.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Another thing, besides transcendental functions, is that a whileTrue:
> kind
> > >> of loop needs to break away at the same logical time, and Cmd-. by one
> > >> person would break out at the same time, etc.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>> An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or
> a
> > >>> translator
> > >>>> from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on
> that
> > >>> idea (and
> > >>>> other things):
> > >>>> https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of
> what
> > >>> I was
> > >>>> talking about. The implementation of it is available here:
> > >>>> https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks
> from
> > >>> "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of
> > >>> "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.
> > >>>
> > >>> That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in
> > >>> Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot
> less
> > >>> work than dealing with Javascript.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I am happy to see if somebody tries to do the full Squeak image based
> > >> environment that can do collaborative development and all that, but
> > >> looking at the old Croquet architecture without having a real model
> view
> > >> separation sounds very hard to me, unfortunately.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi,
> > >>>> The is croquet.io which allows "multiple users to work or play
> together
> > >>> within
> > >>>> a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is
> > >>> possible to take
> > >>>> a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed
> environment. So
> > >>>> multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser,
> > >>> workspaces, ..)
> > >>>> and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak
> image).
> > >>>
> > >>> The current croquet.io is a new implementation in Javascript of the
> > >>> ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was
> forked
> > >>> as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current
> > >>> commercial 3DICC.
> > >>>
> > >>> An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow
> > >>> people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects.
> There
> > >>> was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very
> > >>> interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.
> > >>>
> > >>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901
> > >>>
> > >>> http://www.opencobalt.net/
> > >>>
> > >>> https://www.3dicc.com/
> > >>>
> > >>> https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356
> > >>>
> > >>> -- Jecel
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Beginners mailing list
> > >>> Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > >>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> -- Yoshiki
> > >> -------------- next part --------------
> > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > >> URL: <
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/b11e9a11/attachment.html
> >
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Subject: Digest Footer
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Beginners mailing list
> > >> Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> End of Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1
> > >> *****************************************
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Any artist who remains true to himself becomes a work of art himself,
> > > because that is one of the most difficult things to do. Lenard Cohen
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Beginners mailing list
> > > Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Beginners mailing list
> > Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 2
> > *****************************************
>
>
>
> --
> Any artist who remains true to himself becomes a work of art himself,
> because that is one of the most difficult things to do. Lenard Cohen
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> Beginners at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>
--
-- Yoshiki
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