Cees,
that what the perfect rip out of context.

I said that I assume that you need to be on something deeply 
hierarchical to make use of Traits:

"Furthermore this Collection hierarchy is already there! It is my 
assumption, that unless I program a similar hierarchical monster like 
Collections I don't gain much from Traits. I even fear that Traits may 
lure into programming hierarchical, where a flat structure combined with 
the normal composition would be the better way to go."

If Collections can be refactored so that the code is better 
understandable it is a plus for Traits (the minus would be the speed 
loss). If Morphic could be refactored with the help of Traits it would 
be another plus. Well, looking at Tweak and its more flat structure - 
the opposite direction! - I doubt that Traits would be a big help in 
refactoring Morphic. And as I said, it may even lure into the wrong 
direction...

But all of this was my "preliminary" thinking, and it was not meant to 
say "don't touch anything because it's there". Your allegation is a bit 
absurd. I just felt that it is only fair to explain a bit what I thought 
so far.

Most importantly my "preliminary" thinking should show, that on a pure 
theoretical basis it is hard to make judgements, that it really would 
help to have a traitified image, where you get the full "traits feeling" 
and where you could try out something for real.

Regards,
Martin

Cees de Groot wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:46:30 +0100, Martin Wirblat <sql.mawi at t-link.de>  
> wrote:
> 
>> Furthermore this Collection hierarchy is already there!
> 
> 
> What in incredibly weak argument. I think I'll just let it stand here,  
> it's actually too weak to discuss seriously.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Ok. Here goes: you are saying "don't touch anything because it's 
> there".  Whether it stinks or not. I think that's being absurdly 
> conservative. You  have a pile of dirt on your doorstep and you let it 
> smell because it's  already there?
> 
> Personally, I'm of the opposite persuasion - code smells and bit rot 
> have  to be battled with any available means. If the available means 
> don't  suffice, make new means. The refactoring of the Collection (and 
> most  likely Morphic) hierarchies in itself are for me reason enough to 
> vote for  its inclusion into base Squeak (given due process, etcetera), 
> because  frankly I don't know of any alternative solution that comes 
> even close if  it's about cleaning up these old sores.
> 
> Furthermore, by loose induction, I would say that if Traits is able to  
> elegantly deal with these two warts, I think it will prove to be a very  
> productive tool in the average developer's toolchest.
> 
>