> Kick ass web frameworks for whom, the elite? the premadonnas? 

Sadly, right now, those who are willing to put forth the effort to learn it.
I'm not saying that's not a problem, only that it's a community problem, not
necessarily the core developers problem.

> What happened to smalltalk being an environment that is so 
> easy a child could do it, making things accessible as part of 
> the culture?

I don't think it ever was that, despite its attempts to be.

> I am not trying to make anyone feel bad, it is a cultural 
> thing I was trying to highlight. We have no problem promoting 
> a Testing/Test First culture, why not promote the 
> documentation aspect?
> 
> If you look in the seaside archives I said it back towards 
> Seaside version 1.0 and 1.1 back in the days before seaside 
> had any credibility. 
> If seaside had had some documentation back then perhaps there 
> would not even be a rails today. Regrettably nothing much has 
> changed, until recently. (i.e. Lukas knows better :-) )
>  
> Zope had a book, and as a result zope runs the intranet at my 
> previous company. The actual under the hood code in zope was 
> horrendous, but it has/had a book.
>  
> PHP has a book, and what a book it is, I saw a printout of 
> the manual once, the sheer size of it scared me. But it has a 
> book, and the market share speaks for itself. Sure 
> documentation is not the only factor but it is a factor.
> 
> Keith

I don't disagree, a book would be great.  More than anything, Seaside needs
documentation, marketing, and a larger community to enable those things, but
we don't need to piss of the only people actually doing any work.
Philippe's comments seemed to indicate he was rather annoyed.  I was just
reminding him that we appreciate the effort they put forth, despite any
bitching they may feel coming their way.

Ramon Leon
http://onsmalltalk.com