[UI] Re: MenuMorph hand weirdness

Tue Nov 20 20:02:40 UTC 2007

Gary,

Re-reading your reply (after clicking send - when else?), I caught your
supportive emphasis on streams.  I'll give it whirl, and let you decide
for yourself given a (hopefully) working implementation to try.

Bill

Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: bschwab at anest.ufl.edu
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

>>> gazzaguru2 at btinternet.com 11/20/07 1:15 PM >>>
We have some extensions along the lines of "self synchronize:
[aBlock]"...
which was why the semaphore stuff was important. I guess we'll
(Pinesoft)
get some time to release these things too...

Go for it with Streams, personally I still use them in the "traditional"
sense, quirks and all!

As for (presentation) platforms it will be some work to provide a
flexible
and pertinent layer for that...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> [mailto:ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
> Sent: 20 November 2007 5:08 PM
> To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> Subject: RE: [UI] Re: MenuMorph hand weirdness
>
>
> Gary,
>
> MVP indeed predates OA's work, but I have to walk a fine line of
making
> something compatible and untainted.  I do not think I can serve as a
> coder on a clean version.  Tests I can write and distribute.
>
> As for you starting at the bottom and me at the top, that's perfect!
> You clearly have great skill at graphical coding, and have a lot of
MVP
> work that can stress test my (non-existent, so far) MVP framework; I
> also have meta data->code translators that can push it.  A design goal
> should be to allow the view hierarchy to change; OA anticipated that,
> and it makes sense to continue and extend it.  If the effort succeeds,
> we can begin work on a clean room version knowing that success is
> possible.
>
> 3.9 it is.  I am very pleased to see you also using processes.  The
> first tangible system I would be likely to port is a serial
> communication multiplexer.  It makes heavy use of streams[*], and
> arguably heavy use of processes.  The latter is murky to me, as my
> earliest evaluations of Squeak included a reality check on the
scheduler
> and synchronization; at the time people reported dwarfing my
> requirements without problems.  The more recent "fix this or we switch
> to Java" discussions were unsettling, though you reported having
> improved results with the resulting patches.
>
> [*] I would very much like to put teeth into EndOfStream.  I might
even
> see how to do it.  As I see it, silent truncation by #next: is an
> accident waiting to happen, and exception handling is the answer.  The
> problem would be getting it accepted.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
> University of Florida
> Department of Anesthesiology
> PO Box 100254
> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254
>
> Email: bschwab at anest.ufl.edu
> Tel: (352) 846-1285
> FAX: (352) 392-7029
>
> >>> gazzaguru2 at btinternet.com 11/20/07 10:06 AM >>>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > [mailto:ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Bill
Schwab
> > Sent: 20 November 2007 2:44 PM
> > To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > Subject: RE: [UI] Re: MenuMorph hand weirdness
> >
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > In terms of describing an interface, I immediately zoom out to the
two
> > ways one might approach it: graphical editing, and writing code. 
The
> > nature of the GUI editor and the language are "just details."  IMHO,
> > both methods are essential for happy programmers.  I have some GUI
> > generating/translating tools that I would expect to port to whatever
> > Smalltalk system I end up using; they speak MVP.  If I land in
Squeak,
> > it will have an MVP framework, if only because I will write one out
of
> > frustration :)
>
> 	a concise (programmatic) construction framework would be nice as
> a basis
> for graphical tools. Code generation-reintegration is, IMHO, more
> flexible
> and explict than live prototypes. It is alway good to know that there
is
> a
> basis for recreating a (specific) UI for a system. Similar to the
> concept of
> the image, good to know that it can (essentially) be regenerated if
> corruption problems occur.
>
> >
> > As I have mentioned before, I am concerned that any MVP work I do
> would
> > be tainted with Object Arts' intellectual property.  However, if I
> > create a framework (tainted) and my own tests for it (by definition
> > clean - right???), then the tests could be the basis for a clean MVP
> > framework for Squeak.  Any flaws?  It is a lot of wasted work to
write
> > and then have someone else rewrite a framework, but it might solve
the
> > problem.  At least the rewrite would occur with the benefit of
tests.
> >
>
> 	MVP, as I remember, predates Dolphin in research terms...
>
> > With some cleverness, Morphs as views, native widgets, SVG, etc.,
are
> > hopefully just different types of views in the framework.
> >
>
> 	Indeed, though a mechanism (call it a theme or configuration
> perhaps) to
> bind a coherent set of things together will help. If things are
> cross-pluggable then it should be easy to mix-n-match to suit any
need.
>
> > As a practical matter, I have a few too many Squeak images for my
own
> > good.  I need to archive them all, mine code out of them, and create
> one
> > image that will move back and forth between Linux and Windows.  Any
> > thoughts on 3.9 vs. 3.10?  For 3.9, I would want the
> > delay/queue/semaphore fixes; IIRC, those are included in 3.10??
> >
> > Bill
>
> 	Since I'm currently working on deployment to customers I'll be
> sticking
> with 3.9 (fixes applied) for the moment. Others in the office are on
the
> 3.10 dev beta images. Once our release is stable we'll migrate to 3.10
> in
> the background, I don't forsee any real problems, not the right time
to
> abandon 3.9 for our deliverables just yet.
>
> 	Found another process related bug i may have to air in the dev
> list. Looks
> like Process>>isTerminated is not thread safe/and/or correct. Have has
> instances where a live process has responded "true" to isTerminated,
> briefly! (we are using quite a few processes at various priorities -
> preemption bites!)
>
> 	For me, for a fresh start, I'd like to start at "the bottom",
> basic
> drawing/interation (Cairo/BitBlt/Balloon/GTK etc). Perhaps we can meet
> halfway...
>
>
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