[UI] Re: MenuMorph hand weirdness

Tue Nov 20 20:00:26 UTC 2007

Gary,

I am having some trouble envisioning #synchronize: - I tend to think in
terms of shared resources identified by/with a mutex, or something along
those lines.  Being a process junkie, I look forward to seeing what you
have done.

Could I interest you in more cross-dialect-friendly stream semantics? 
IMHO, once you have an exception catch a format deviation "now vs.
later," you'll be hooked.  No hard feelings if you decide to stick with
Squeaky streams.

Bill

Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: bschwab at anest.ufl.edu
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

>>> gazzaguru2 at btinternet.com 11/20/07 1:15 PM >>>
We have some extensions along the lines of "self synchronize:
[aBlock]"...
which was why the semaphore stuff was important. I guess we'll
(Pinesoft)
get some time to release these things too...

Go for it with Streams, personally I still use them in the "traditional"
sense, quirks and all!

As for (presentation) platforms it will be some work to provide a
flexible
and pertinent layer for that...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> [mailto:ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
> Sent: 20 November 2007 5:08 PM
> To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> Subject: RE: [UI] Re: MenuMorph hand weirdness
>
>
> Gary,
>
> MVP indeed predates OA's work, but I have to walk a fine line of
making
> something compatible and untainted.  I do not think I can serve as a
> coder on a clean version.  Tests I can write and distribute.
>
> As for you starting at the bottom and me at the top, that's perfect!
> You clearly have great skill at graphical coding, and have a lot of
MVP
> work that can stress test my (non-existent, so far) MVP framework; I
> also have meta data->code translators that can push it.  A design goal
> should be to allow the view hierarchy to change; OA anticipated that,
> and it makes sense to continue and extend it.  If the effort succeeds,
> we can begin work on a clean room version knowing that success is
> possible.
>
> 3.9 it is.  I am very pleased to see you also using processes.  The
> first tangible system I would be likely to port is a serial
> communication multiplexer.  It makes heavy use of streams[*], and
> arguably heavy use of processes.  The latter is murky to me, as my
> earliest evaluations of Squeak included a reality check on the
scheduler
> and synchronization; at the time people reported dwarfing my
> requirements without problems.  The more recent "fix this or we switch
> to Java" discussions were unsettling, though you reported having
> improved results with the resulting patches.
>
> [*] I would very much like to put teeth into EndOfStream.  I might
even
> see how to do it.  As I see it, silent truncation by #next: is an
> accident waiting to happen, and exception handling is the answer.  The
> problem would be getting it accepted.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
> University of Florida
> Department of Anesthesiology
> PO Box 100254
> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254
>
> Email: bschwab at anest.ufl.edu
> Tel: (352) 846-1285
> FAX: (352) 392-7029
>
> >>> gazzaguru2 at btinternet.com 11/20/07 10:06 AM >>>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > [mailto:ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Bill
Schwab
> > Sent: 20 November 2007 2:44 PM
> > To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > Subject: RE: [UI] Re: MenuMorph hand weirdness
> >
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > In terms of describing an interface, I immediately zoom out to the
two
> > ways one might approach it: graphical editing, and writing code. 
The
> > nature of the GUI editor and the language are "just details."  IMHO,
> > both methods are essential for happy programmers.  I have some GUI
> > generating/translating tools that I would expect to port to whatever
> > Smalltalk system I end up using; they speak MVP.  If I land in
Squeak,
> > it will have an MVP framework, if only because I will write one out
of
> > frustration :)
>
> 	a concise (programmatic) construction framework would be nice as
> a basis
> for graphical tools. Code generation-reintegration is, IMHO, more
> flexible
> and explict than live prototypes. It is alway good to know that there
is
> a
> basis for recreating a (specific) UI for a system. Similar to the
> concept of
> the image, good to know that it can (essentially) be regenerated if
> corruption problems occur.
>
> >
> > As I have mentioned before, I am concerned that any MVP work I do
> would
> > be tainted with Object Arts' intellectual property.  However, if I
> > create a framework (tainted) and my own tests for it (by definition
> > clean - right???), then the tests could be the basis for a clean MVP
> > framework for Squeak.  Any flaws?  It is a lot of wasted work to
write
> > and then have someone else rewrite a framework, but it might solve
the
> > problem.  At least the rewrite would occur with the benefit of
tests.
> >
>
> 	MVP, as I remember, predates Dolphin in research terms...
>
> > With some cleverness, Morphs as views, native widgets, SVG, etc.,
are
> > hopefully just different types of views in the framework.
> >
>
> 	Indeed, though a mechanism (call it a theme or configuration
> perhaps) to
> bind a coherent set of things together will help. If things are
> cross-pluggable then it should be easy to mix-n-match to suit any
need.
>
> > As a practical matter, I have a few too many Squeak images for my
own
> > good.  I need to archive them all, mine code out of them, and create
> one
> > image that will move back and forth between Linux and Windows.  Any
> > thoughts on 3.9 vs. 3.10?  For 3.9, I would want the
> > delay/queue/semaphore fixes; IIRC, those are included in 3.10??
> >
> > Bill
>
> 	Since I'm currently working on deployment to customers I'll be
> sticking
> with 3.9 (fixes applied) for the moment. Others in the office are on
the
> 3.10 dev beta images. Once our release is stable we'll migrate to 3.10
> in
> the background, I don't forsee any real problems, not the right time
to
> abandon 3.9 for our deliverables just yet.
>
> 	Found another process related bug i may have to air in the dev
> list. Looks
> like Process>>isTerminated is not thread safe/and/or correct. Have has
> instances where a live process has responded "true" to isTerminated,
> briefly! (we are using quite a few processes at various priorities -
> preemption bites!)
>
> 	For me, for a fresh start, I'd like to start at "the bottom",
> basic
> drawing/interation (Cairo/BitBlt/Balloon/GTK etc). Perhaps we can meet
> halfway...
>
>
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