http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Stef
Hi Stef,
Am 05.01.2007 um 22:31 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Cool indeed. What is "Genie" ?
Greetings
Hans
Hans N Beck wrote:
Hi Stef,
Am 05.01.2007 um 22:31 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Cool indeed. What is "Genie" ?
Greetings
Hans
Genie is a gesture recognizer. the video is pretty cool. I think it is a good interface for dealing with subsections of documents, but it will become unwieldy with a huge amount of documents one accumulate over a few years. I saw terabyte disks announced yesterday, users should not be exposed to manually organize something like that. Some kind of automatic storage and indexing must be introduced.
karl
Genie is a gesture recognition system developed by nathanael schaerli for squeak.
Stef On 6 janv. 07, at 13:06, Hans N Beck wrote:
Hi Stef,
Am 05.01.2007 um 22:31 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Cool indeed. What is "Genie" ?
Greetings
Hans
On 5-Jan-07, at 1:31 PM, stéphane ducasse wrote:
Yuck. Absolutely ridiculous system. I don't want some simulation of a bad system (messy desktops may be common but they're certainly not good) I want a sensible system that actually helps my work processes.
This is nothing more than game-washed kids trying to find a way to get grade points for playing Doom.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: FR: Flip Record
tim Rowledge wrote:
This is nothing more than game-washed kids trying to find a way to get grade points for playing Doom.
you might be right ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUVpSY4eBCc&mode=related&search=
Michael
Michael Rueger skrev:
tim Rowledge wrote:
This is nothing more than game-washed kids trying to find a way to get grade points for playing Doom.
you might be right ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUVpSY4eBCc&mode=related&search=
Michael
:-) Karl
I think that what is interesting is that people have the tools to try new ideas even if you think that they are idiot. I thought for a moment that squeak was this platform that would allow us to build great next generation ideas. So I hope that I clarified the purpose of my first email.
On 6 janv. 07, at 21:16, tim Rowledge wrote:
On 5-Jan-07, at 1:31 PM, stéphane ducasse wrote:
Yuck. Absolutely ridiculous system. I don't want some simulation of a bad system (messy desktops may be common but they're certainly not good) I want a sensible system that actually helps my work processes.
This is nothing more than game-washed kids trying to find a way to get grade points for playing Doom.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: FR: Flip Record
On 7-Jan-07, at 12:16 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
I think that what is interesting is that people have the tools to try new ideas even if you think that they are idiot.
Yes, that is good and interesting; the faster people ca try out ideas and discover which ones are bad, the better it is. As we used to say at Interval Research - Fail Early, Fail Often.
Squeak is definitely one of the tools I would consider valuable for this. So is SketchUp, so is the Doom Programmers Kit (or whatever it may be known as). So is modelling clay....
And none of it stops me thinking that is a bad idea to photophysically emulate a bad way of working. Sure it's cool that you *can* do that that but that doesn't make it a good way of working.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Oscar Wilde: “Only the shallow know themselves.”
I think that what is interesting is that people have the tools to try new ideas even if you think that they are idiot.
Yes, that is good and interesting; the faster people ca try out ideas and discover which ones are bad, the better it is. As we used to say at Interval Research - Fail Early, Fail Often.
Squeak is definitely one of the tools I would consider valuable for this. So is SketchUp, so is the Doom Programmers Kit (or whatever it may be known as). So is modelling clay....
And none of it stops me thinking that is a bad idea to photophysically emulate a bad way of working. Sure it's cool that you *can* do that that but that doesn't make it a good way of working.
Indeed. I have no idea of 3D virtual space efficiency and I was more looking at the technical aspects.
Stef
tim Rowledge wrote:
And none of it stops me thinking that is a bad idea to photophysically emulate a bad way of working.
I wish someone would tell that to every organisation that attempts to chain it's employees to desks for 8 hours+ a day :-)
Back to the video, it is some months old now and I think all the criticisms that could be made have been. Still, on a superficial level it is excellent eye candy and I for one don't understand the general aversion of the Squeak community to eye candy. Image sells and that's a fact... and I think Squeak/Smalltalk could have done with some eye-candy style interfaces and marketing. It could also be argued that EToys is eye candy?
Regarding 3D, for a long time I believed that 3D was the future but eventually came to the conclusion that 2.5D is more suitable in most cases and this is an prime example. I agree it has flaws but I think it should be viewed as possibly appropriate for working at a particular level, eg, with a small subset of documents/data. Plus it presents an immediately familiar metaphor that almost anyone can relate to. I lost faith in full blown 3D metaphors because the examples I have seen overwhelm the user and/or abstract away any common meaning. A good metric for future interfaces is: do they even need explaining, let alone an operators manual (yuuuuk!).
...or should I just say: I like it!
Why I think full 3D is inevitable... though fully integrated with 2D, with text, and with databases.
Most information management will begin to look like how a large building is built.
Building Information Modeling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_Information_Modeling
... to manage complexity and coordinate communication in real time for a multitude of information participants and interests.
Cheers, Darius
On 1/7/07, Derek O'Connell dmoc02@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
tim Rowledge wrote:
And none of it stops me thinking that is a bad idea to photophysically emulate a bad way of working.
I wish someone would tell that to every organisation that attempts to chain it's employees to desks for 8 hours+ a day :-)
Back to the video, it is some months old now and I think all the criticisms that could be made have been. Still, on a superficial level it is excellent eye candy and I for one don't understand the general aversion of the Squeak community to eye candy. Image sells and that's a fact... and I think Squeak/Smalltalk could have done with some eye-candy style interfaces and marketing. It could also be argued that EToys is eye candy?
Regarding 3D, for a long time I believed that 3D was the future but eventually came to the conclusion that 2.5D is more suitable in most cases and this is an prime example. I agree it has flaws but I think it should be viewed as possibly appropriate for working at a particular level, eg, with a small subset of documents/data. Plus it presents an immediately familiar metaphor that almost anyone can relate to. I lost faith in full blown 3D metaphors because the examples I have seen overwhelm the user and/or abstract away any common meaning. A good metric for future interfaces is: do they even need explaining, let alone an operators manual (yuuuuk!).
...or should I just say: I like it!
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/3D-desktop-tf2930270.html#a8208533 Sent from the Squeak - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
The problem with 3D desktops, or any 3D functionality whatsoever, is that I own a motherboard which, by all appearances Linux should support, it even has a menu item in the configuration system specifically listing my chipset, but it doesn't. instead linux crashes instantly and completely whenever I try to do anything at all with anything even remotely related to 3D, even the simplest diagnostics will crash my computer. Therefore my position is that nobody should be permitted to use, develop, or even discuss any 3D application of any kind, under penalty of law, until my computer is restored to full operation. =|
he he, I sympathise. Sounds like an interrupt problem to me. I have used Linux and nVidea/ATI cards with Linux with no problem after setting up. What type of card do you have?
On 1/8/07, Alan Grimes agrimes@speakeasy.net wrote:
The problem with 3D desktops, or any 3D functionality whatsoever, is that I own a motherboard which, by all appearances Linux should support, it even has a menu item in the configuration system specifically listing my chipset, but it doesn't. instead linux crashes instantly and completely whenever I try to do anything at all with anything even remotely related to 3D, even the simplest diagnostics will crash my computer. Therefore my position is that nobody should be permitted to use, develop, or even discuss any 3D application of any kind, under penalty of law, until my computer is restored to full operation. =|
-- |/-|/-|
Derek O'Connell wrote:
he he, I sympathise. Sounds like an interrupt problem to me. I have used Linux and nVidea/ATI cards with Linux with no problem after setting up. What type of card do you have?
and what driver are you using?
On 1/8/07, *Alan Grimes* <agrimes@speakeasy.net mailto:agrimes@speakeasy.net> wrote:
The problem with 3D desktops, or any 3D functionality whatsoever, is that I own a motherboard which, by all appearances Linux should support, it even has a menu item in the configuration system specifically listing my chipset, but it doesn't. instead linux crashes instantly and completely whenever I try to do anything at all with anything even remotely related to 3D, even the simplest diagnostics will crash my computer. Therefore my position is that nobody should be permitted to use, develop, or even discuss any 3D application of any kind, under penalty of law, until my computer is restored to full operation. =| -- |/-\|/-\|
Brad Fuller wrote:
Derek O'Connell wrote:
he he, I sympathise. Sounds like an interrupt problem to me. I have used Linux and nVidea/ATI cards with Linux with no problem after setting up. What type of card do you have?
ATI R280, (9250) on a MSI board.
In discussions on the DRI list (I am using purely open source drivers), the issue seems to have to do with the interaction between the driver for the comparatively rare AMD 762 (Athlon MP) chipset. (Probably a bug in the chipset driver that is triggered whenever I attempt to set up the GART for OpenGL usage). =(
and what driver are you using?
Open source, compiled automaticly from gentoo's portage tree.
I stick with my prediction that Windows will never take off because DOS apps are much faster. 40 lines of code just to bring up a window!! It's never going to happen!
Ron Teitelbaum
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Darius Clarke Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:09 PM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: Re: 3D desktop
Why I think full 3D is inevitable... though fully integrated with 2D, with text, and with databases.
Most information management will begin to look like how a large building is built.
Building Information Modeling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_Information_Modeling
... to manage complexity and coordinate communication in real time for a multitude of information participants and interests.
Cheers, Darius
On 1/7/07, Derek O'Connell dmoc02@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
tim Rowledge wrote:
And none of it stops me thinking that is a bad idea to photophysically emulate a bad way of working.
I wish someone would tell that to every organisation that attempts to
chain
it's employees to desks for 8 hours+ a day :-)
Back to the video, it is some months old now and I think all the
criticisms
that could be made have been. Still, on a superficial level it is
excellent
eye candy and I for one don't understand the general aversion of the
Squeak
community to eye candy. Image sells and that's a fact... and I think Squeak/Smalltalk could have done with some eye-candy style interfaces
and
marketing. It could also be argued that EToys is eye candy?
Regarding 3D, for a long time I believed that 3D was the future but eventually came to the conclusion that 2.5D is more suitable in most
cases
and this is an prime example. I agree it has flaws but I think it should
be
viewed as possibly appropriate for working at a particular level, eg,
with a
small subset of documents/data. Plus it presents an immediately familiar metaphor that almost anyone can relate to. I lost faith in full blown 3D metaphors because the examples I have seen overwhelm the user and/or abstract away any common meaning. A good metric for future interfaces
is: do
they even need explaining, let alone an operators manual (yuuuuk!).
...or should I just say: I like it!
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/3D-desktop-
tf2930270.html#a8208533
Sent from the Squeak - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
I stick with my prediction that Windows will never take off because DOS apps are much faster. 40 lines of code just to bring up a window!! It's never going to happen!
Damn streight!
DOS Apps remain unsurpassed in so many areas that it makes me cry every time I think about it. =(
On 1/7/07, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
On 7-Jan-07, at 12:16 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
I think that what is interesting is that people have the tools to try new ideas even if you think that they are idiot.
Yes, that is good and interesting; the faster people ca try out ideas and discover which ones are bad, the better it is. As we used to say at Interval Research - Fail Early, Fail Often.
Squeak is definitely one of the tools I would consider valuable for this. So is SketchUp, so is the Doom Programmers Kit (or whatever it may be known as). So is modelling clay....
And none of it stops me thinking that is a bad idea to photophysically emulate a bad way of working. Sure it's cool that you *can* do that that but that doesn't make it a good way of working.
Perhaps order, like most things is not always what it appears to be. Organizing requires overhead and maintenance. Not all neat desktops are efficient and some messy desktops are more effectively organized than others. For example, there are many visual encodings in my messy desktop that I can't figure out a "neat" way to do that doesn't require a lot of overhead. I get phone calls, snail mail, physical folders and objects from other people that don't fit neatly into an existing structure so they go into piles. Proximity indicates overall priority. Nearness to the top of the stack is a strong indicator of priority within the domain of that stack. A stack is sticky - i.e. I can move a stack and it retains local spatial tags along with a rough chronology and whatever color tags I may have used. I have a sense of when my mess is getting unmanageable and things need to have a neater, more structured arrangement. Piles that are really high, wide or static probably need attention. Piles convey status info to me while on the phone and when entering or leaving the room. They have their downsides especially for things that need to be shared but messy piles can be an effective management tool.
Cheers, Laurence
tim
-- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Oscar Wilde: "Only the shallow know themselves."
tim Rowledge wrote:
On 5-Jan-07, at 1:31 PM, stéphane ducasse wrote:
Yuck. Absolutely ridiculous system. I don't want some simulation of a bad system (messy desktops may be common but they're certainly not good) I want a sensible system that actually helps my work processes.
This is nothing more than game-washed kids trying to find a way to get grade points for playing Doom.
tim
Gee Tim, just this weekend I have seen several articles saying that messy is good. Seems there's a new book out by a rabbi saying that too-organized is wasteful and too-messy is wasteful, but some mess is just right! See: http://www.amazon.com/Yearnings-Embracing-Sacred-Messiness-Life/dp/1401301924
Cheers, David
On 1/6/07, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
This is nothing more than game-washed kids trying to find a way to get grade points for playing Doom.
True in sorts. The best email system I've used so far is Gmail. Which is strange, it being browser-based. Every single shortcoming for the browser UI, however, is made up for by Google's excellent search system. Eye candy can't compete with good old functionality :). That's also why I am totally not interested in pimping Squeak's UI, for example.
Still - some nice and potentially more widely applicable gestures though.
Hi
Am 07.01.2007 um 12:20 schrieb Cees de Groot:
On 1/6/07, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
This is nothing more than game-washed kids trying to find a way to get grade points for playing Doom.
True in sorts. The best email system I've used so far is Gmail. Which is strange, it being browser-based. Every single shortcoming for the browser UI, however, is made up for by Google's excellent search system. Eye candy can't compete with good old functionality :). That's also why I am totally not interested in pimping Squeak's UI, for example.
Still - some nice and potentially more widely applicable gestures though.
And: the way how to use computers will change. There will be come an age where we don't use a mouse or a keyboard at all for standard tasks. So playing such "games" may be necessary to find promising new ways.
Regards
Hans
Cees de Groot puso en su mail :
On 1/6/07, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
This is nothing more than game-washed kids trying to find a way to get grade points for playing Doom.
Euclides view of world last for many years and for many of us a "flat" world is enough.
Edgar
__________________________________________________ Pregunt�. Respond�. Descubr�. Todo lo que quer�as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est� en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). �Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas
stéphane ducasse wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Stef
another interface:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid271543545/bctid422563006
Brad Fuller wrote:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Stef
another interface:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid271543545/bctid422563006
Pretty nice. I have always wanted a touch screen interface for a computer. Interfacing with computers will change. Look at the success of the Wii game platform. I'm not proclaiming the death of the mouse and keyboard but I don't think they will play a major part in the-next-computer-revolution(tm). Karl
Karl wrote:
Brad Fuller wrote:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Stef
another interface:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid271543545/bctid422563006
Pretty nice. I have always wanted a touch screen interface for a computer. Interfacing with computers will change. Look at the success of the Wii game platform. I'm not proclaiming the death of the mouse and keyboard but I don't think they will play a major part in the-next-computer-revolution(tm). Karl
My first question was: "how will a croquet user navigate?" I assumed that you would just point and drag your finger where you wanted to move. Actually, it might be a bit easier because you wouldn't have to traverse the landscape if you just wanted to get somewhere -- maybe just place your finger on the destination and you're there.
Brad Fuller skrev:
Karl wrote:
Brad Fuller wrote:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Stef
another interface:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid271543545/bctid422563006
Pretty nice. I have always wanted a touch screen interface for a computer. Interfacing with computers will change. Look at the success of the Wii game platform. I'm not proclaiming the death of the mouse and keyboard but I don't think they will play a major part in the-next-computer-revolution(tm). Karl
My first question was: "how will a croquet user navigate?" I assumed that you would just point and drag your finger where you wanted to move. Actually, it might be a bit easier because you wouldn't have to traverse the landscape if you just wanted to get somewhere -- maybe just place your finger on the destination and you're there.
You can do this in Croquet now when you click on the down pointing arrow on a portal. karl
karl wrote:
Brad Fuller skrev:
Karl wrote:
Brad Fuller wrote:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Stef
another interface:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid271543545/bctid422563006
Pretty nice. I have always wanted a touch screen interface for a computer. Interfacing with computers will change. Look at the success of the Wii game platform. I'm not proclaiming the death of the mouse and keyboard but I don't think they will play a major part in the-next-computer-revolution(tm). Karl
My first question was: "how will a croquet user navigate?" I assumed that you would just point and drag your finger where you wanted to move. Actually, it might be a bit easier because you wouldn't have to traverse the landscape if you just wanted to get somewhere -- maybe just place your finger on the destination and you're there.
You can do this in Croquet now when you click on the down pointing arrow on a portal.
yeah, but not if you want to go to the top of a mountain, right?
A virtual joystic can be use for that (google earth use something like that with nice keyboard bindings)
Cheers,
Sebastian
-----Mensaje original----- De: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre de Brad Fuller Enviado el: Lunes, 12 de Febrero de 2007 17:51 Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Asunto: Re: 3D desktop
karl wrote:
Brad Fuller skrev:
Karl wrote:
Brad Fuller wrote:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
Stef
another interface:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid271543545/bctid422563 006
Pretty nice. I have always wanted a touch screen interface for a computer. Interfacing with computers will change. Look at the success of the Wii game platform. I'm not proclaiming the death of the mouse and keyboard but I don't think they will play a major part in the-next-computer-revolution(tm). Karl
My first question was: "how will a croquet user navigate?" I assumed that you would just point and drag your finger where you wanted to move. Actually, it might be a bit easier because you wouldn't have to traverse the landscape if you just wanted to get somewhere -- maybe just place your finger on the destination and you're there.
You can do this in Croquet now when you click on the down pointing arrow on a portal.
yeah, but not if you want to go to the top of a mountain, right?
-- brad fuller www.bradfuller.com +1 (408) 799-6124
On 12-Feb-07, at 10:28 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
I actually dislike this - the movie has been a round for a while and it hasn't grown on me. 'messy desk' might have been a reasonable metaphor years ago in order to get people used to the idea of windowing computer interfaces but it isn't actually a *good* idea. This particular version is nothing more than making a video game out of moving stuff on your screen.
another interface:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid271543545/bctid422563006
This on the other hand is actually an improvement in the UI. We tried to do a little of this multi-input stuff years ago on the ActiveBook - at Bill Atkinson's urging I believe - but had to do it via two quite separate input devices so it was never really very convincing. It will of course require non-trivial changes in how we arrange our hardware to be useful . Nobody is going to spend a day at work having to hold fingers up to typical displays and typical portables would need noticeable changes.
The shared aspect may turn out to be a major win as well. Imagine traffic control systems working like the demo, where a group of controllers can handle the traffic by moving objects around to block or permit access to airspace, direct to holding patterns, see the progress of all the traffic, etc etc. Or perhaps group reviewing code, making scribble notes, passing blocks of code/notes around. Of course as always the real technology driver is likely to be making it easy and convenient to sort your porn collection.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Oxymorons: Clearly misunderstood
tim Rowledge napsal(a):
On 12-Feb-07, at 10:28 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ Could be cool to use Genie for that....
I actually dislike this - the movie has been a round for a while and it hasn't grown on me. 'messy desk' might have been a reasonable metaphor years ago in order to get people used to the idea of windowing computer interfaces but it isn't actually a *good* idea. This particular version is nothing more than making a video game out of moving stuff on your screen.
Well, I agree. But it shows something interesting in UI. I call it live-gestures (maybe exists better name). It is different from summoning gestures where drawing symbol call out some functions. It dynamically shows what is happing during drawing the gestures and this gestures are similar to touching a thing. No magic. No drawing symbols. Just touching. I think Grail was first program that uses this kind of gestures. No menu is needed for most actions. Menu could be there, but gestures are shortcuts.
another interface:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid271543545/bctid422563006
This on the other hand is actually an improvement in the UI. We tried to do a little of this multi-input stuff years ago on the ActiveBook - at Bill Atkinson's urging I believe - but had to do it via two quite separate input devices so it was never really very convincing. It will of course require non-trivial changes in how we arrange our hardware to be useful . Nobody is going to spend a day at work having to hold fingers up to typical displays and typical portables would need noticeable changes.
The shared aspect may turn out to be a major win as well. Imagine traffic control systems working like the demo, where a group of controllers can handle the traffic by moving objects around to block or permit access to airspace, direct to holding patterns, see the progress of all the traffic, etc etc. Or perhaps group reviewing code, making scribble notes, passing blocks of code/notes around. Of course as always the real technology driver is likely to be making it easy and convenient to sort your porn collection.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Oxymorons: Clearly misunderstood
And this one... Nothing to say. Genial. I like it :)
Adam
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