[Squeak-fr] PataPata

francois schnell francois.schnell at gmail.com
Dim 23 Juil 10:53:59 UTC 2006 

On 10/07/06, stéphane ducasse <ducasse at iam.unibe.ch> wrote:
>
> C'est marrant de voir que cette personne qui s'est plaint de Squeak a
> prefere recommencer ailleurs au lieu
> de proposer une nouvelle mouture de Morphic comme est en train de le
> faire un argentain (juan vuletich).
> C'est marrant je n'ai jamais vu cette personne ne serait qu'envoyer
> un simple fix dans Squeak.
> Il a surement des tas de raisons.


En tout cas il n'était pas resté "muet" sur la liste squeak-dev , source:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=26506356&forum_id=48729

Contenu:

On 23/07/06, Paul D. Fernhout <pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com> wrote:
>
> Francois-
>
> I noticed this discussion from a couple of weeks back related to PataPata,
> and my wife, who speaks some French, gave me a rough translation:
>    http://www.nabble.com/PataPata-t1915500.html
> > by stéphane ducasse-2 2006-07-10 02:33
> > C'est marrant de voir que cette personne qui s'est plaint de Squeak a
> > prefere recommencer ailleurs au lieu
> > de proposer une nouvelle mouture de Morphic comme est en train de le
> > faire un argentain (juan vuletich).
> > C'est marrant je n'ai jamais vu cette personne ne serait qu'envoyer
> > un simple fix dans Squeak.
> > Il a surement des tas de raisons.
>
> You have been a little quiet on your side of the Atlantic, and if this was
> the only reason, I should mention I have done some previous things done
> for Squeak, of varying degrees of success, and mostly from about six to
> eight years ago, so perhaps so long ago Stéphane has forgotten?
>
> I have both contributed to the Squeak community and have specific reasons
> for not just improving Morphic.
>
> I was one of the first users of Squeak (Sun, Oct 6 1996):
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.smalltalk/browse_thread/thread/798b7a065f08bd7f/13361a9ffa40a6f8?lnk=st&q=&rnum=50&hl=en#13361a9ffa40a6f8
>
> I developed Embedded Squeak (a small headless Squeak):
>    http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/squeak/readme.txt
>
> I worked on a Newton version of Squeak (a fizzled project, admittedly, no
> source on the web).
>
> I released a Data Repository System for Squeak:
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-July/003656.html
>
> Some old comments I made on improving Morphic include:
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-February/012486.html
> which lead to my proof-of-concept of LinksWorld posted to the Squeak list
> 03/11/2000:
>    "Here is one working example of some of what I am talking about for an
> alternate design philosophy to Morphic:
>    http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/squeak/LinksWorld20000311.zip
> This code example is similar to the concept expressed in another post I
> made related to using networks of links as the basis for GUI building. It
> runs under MVC much as Morphic does -- by not actually using the MVC
> paradigm, but just presenting a "world" window. This code was developed
> under Squeak 2.7, and I tested filing it into 2.4. It has not been
> tested with 2.8."
>
> A summary I wrote to the Squeak list of the deeper issues:
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-September/009324.html
> "There are really just a few core things that need to be rewoven
> throughout the release -- modularity, exceptions, fonts (please not ones
> reliant on Morphic) and then Squeak can really take off as the rest of
> the parts can be added by individuals as modules. All are already making
> progress (slowly).
> But I think it unrealistic to expect an individual or even a group to do
> these specific core things outside of SqueakC (given the current state
> of affairs). Just about everything else, yes. For example, I have in the
> past offered things like LinksWorld (with undo) or the Pointrel data
> repository system as Squeak add-ons.
> These few core things I mentioned would be best done by the core group.
> Unfortunately, at this point what we have now (to greatly exaggerate,
> admittedly) is in effect the core SqueakC team working on extensions and
> applications (Morphic, eToy, 3DGraphics, Scripting) and everyone else
> working on core issues (exceptions, fonts, modularity, block variables).
> If Squeak was more modular, this inverted approach might work better.
> But it's not yet. And making Squeak more modular requires making massive
> core changes -- a Catch 22 (even I think for the Squeak Stable World
> Tour, but perhaps that will have oompph enough to get past it.)"
>
> You can Google for lots of other comments I've made to the Squeak lists on
> lots of issues relating to making Squeak a better system. Essentially, the
> core issues relate to trying to manage complexity in Squeak.
> For example:
> "Belling the cat of complexity (was: Ship it with Squeak)"
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-June/001371.html
> (including proposing a "harvesting" process). From there:
> "Les Tyrrell put the issues very eloquently, and makes me
> realize this issue for shipping is really best put as "managing
> complexity in Squeak to reduce the risk of unexpected behavior in an
> application to an acceptable level". The complexity in Squeak comes in two
> areas: code issues and license issues."
>
> One big issue I wrote extensively on the Squeak list was simply the
> license and related issues -- the Squeak license was not true "open
> source" or "free software" (especially regarding indemnification and
> export provisions), and there was never a clear statement from Disney as
> to the licensing of the work done while Alan Kay's group was there. I
> begged Alan Kay to get one as his group left Disney, but essentially got a
> reply that software copyright and patents were so messed up that licensing
> was always problematical and if you read the Squeak license a certain way
> their stuff was covered somehow. He said similar things publicly
> later, a related example being:
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-March/054984.html
> (which also proposes going beyond Squeak, which I am trying to do).
> I'm willing to tolerate some ambiguity in licensing issues,
> but that seemed pretty much beyond what I was comfortable with. :-)
> So legally IMHO Squeak itself was (and still is) a shaky
> foundation to build on (the Disney issue being the most problematical in
> my opinion). Technologically interesting, yes, but legally problematical.
> I also had the Squeak situation reviewed by the legal team at one of the
> biggest computer companies in the world and could use it only with a lot
> of big restrictions even with Disney as a partner (no distribution of the
> results being the biggest one -- and that big company even had one of the
> authors of the Squeak license working for it by then and helping
> me with the approval process). By contrast, Python got the go-ahead for
> doing all sorts of stuff with around 1999 (embarrassingly to me, they even
> asked Guido directly if Python was original) when I wanted permission to
> use that for an R&D project. Personally, it would not surprise me if that
> licensing was also one issue driving some of Alan Kay's groups interest in
> Python (although I think visibility is still probably the bigger draw. :-)
>
> I think history has proven me right on these things. As much as people
> protested or ignored these points, these issues of managing complexity
> (e.g. "bit rot") in Squeak and of dealing with licensing issues continue
> to limit Squeak's growth and development. For example, recent posts by
> others on Jan 30 2005 :
> "Squeak is an unsuccessful open source project (was RE: Let us face
> reality)"
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2005-January/087609.html
> (I agree Craig Latta's work is a great direction).
> or:
> "The state of licensing... and a Dream! (was Re: Proposal for a Squeak
> migration meeting)"
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-June/105229.html
> Or even:
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-March/055566.html
>
> I *could* solve the technical issues with Squeak (and would have enjoyed
> doing so); I could *not* solve the legal ones by myself, or the complexity
> management ones of seeing any improvements I made be left to rot as the
> core team focused on just adding more complexity (which I had already seen
> happen to other submitters for patches related to fixing core issues.)
>
> People are now trying to address these core complexity management
> issues in Squeak and doing a good job of it, but for me the licensing
> issues remain as unresolvable ones. Others (including presumably
> Stéphane) naturally have their own opinions on the licensing situation,
> and many agree with Alan Kay's opinion, and so focus on improving Squeak
> directly, and I wish them the best of success with that.
> And here is a good idea by Stéphane on how to slowly fix even the
> licensing issue:
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-June/105257.html
> The copyright "contamination" problem would still there to varying
> degrees, although it would also haunt contributions by anyone, including
> myself, who has used any commercial Smalltalk which generally come with
> much source, and most Squeakers fall in that category.
>
> Still, even Alan Kay himself repeatedly suggests just thinking of Squeak
> as a stepping stone to the next great thing.
>
> These were the sorts of things I wanted to address such as with this
> proposal:
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeakfoundation/2002-January/000357.html
> "The intent of the Bellesqueak list is to support a community process
> which creates, discusses, uses, and maintains a cross-platform computing
> environment and knowledge management system inspired by Squeak Smalltalk
> called Bellesqueak. The focus of Bellesqueak will be on transparency,
> robustness, and complexity management -- to support the doing of good
> deeds such as education, sustainable development, and ensuring humanity
> survives Vernor Vinge's Singularity in some form."
> But, that effort did not progress (although PataPata is a form of progress
> on it).
>
> I just took a week vacation to visit relatives, and now I am
> reevaluating what I want to do with PataPata -- like whether to continue
> with Python or reconsider the idea taking the lessons from those versions
> and move towards putting prototypes with a Smalltalk/Self syntax on top of
> OCaml (and perhaps other syntaxes as well, indentational Scheme,
> Python-ish, etc.). I remain intrigued by the notion of building prototypes
> on Ocaml (using it as a "better C") to create a system that has late
> binding for most things in the system I build but have early binding for a
> few performance issues like the delegation code itself (which is currently
> in Python and so, in this case, not as fast as it could be).
> Alternatively, modifying the Jython compiler for the JVM to use prototype
> delegation routines written in Java  is another route to gain performance
> but in this case stay close to the Python language model
> (and probably advantageous from a copyright "contamination" point of
> view). Both approaches have pluses and minuses, as does just sticking with
> plain Python.
>
> --Paul Fernhout
>
>
> francois


Stef
>
>
>
> >
> > A voir ici  : http://showmedo.com/videos/video?
> > name=patapata_tkinter1_fSchnell
> >
> > WARNING : Troll detected.
> >
> > Non ce n'est pas un e-Toys en Python, c'est juste un ancien
> > utilsateur de Squeak  (Paul Fernhout un américain) qui se fait
> > plaisir en *commençant* quelque chose dans son temps libre (v 0.1).
> > Son initiative n'est pas supportée par "Guido" à ma connaissance.
> >
> > Comme je crois à la diffusion des idées (qui ne sont pas encore
> > brevetables pour l'instant), j'ai fait ce Screencast pour expliquer
> > à un autre américain ce que cet américain fesait sur une liste (et
> > puis après showmedo l'a repris).
> >
> > Bon on a tous des choses constructives à faire.
> >
> > Bonne nuit.
> >
> > francois
> >
> > --                                                         oooo
> > Dr. Serge Stinckwich                                     OOOOOOOO
> > Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>MAD               OOESUGOO
> > http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich                       oooooo
> > Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]   \  /
> >                                                              ##
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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