Squeak-dev May 2008

squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

141 participants
174 discussions

Squeak Leadership meeting 21st May 2008
by tim Rowledge 09 Jun '08

09 Jun '08

The Naming of Parts[1] Since we are joining the Software Freedom Conservancy[2] we need to abide by a number of rules and one of those is that they don't feel happy with us referring to a 'Squeak Foundation' or 'the Squeak Board'. They have asked us to use a name such as 'the Squeak Leadership' and so we will be trying to use that in future communications and on the relevant webpages. The Naming of Pages Pursuant to the above and also relating to conversations about the website, we will be moving pages about the foundation - sorry, the leadership - to a more visible place. Communicating Better We appointed a secretary (tim for now) to publish a report (ie this message) after leadership meetings. Finishing 3.10.1 We agreed to appoint Randal as the leadership's ambassador plenipotentiary for the release of 3.10.1[3] - as announced earlier today. tim [1] http://www.solearabiantree.net/namingofparts/namingofparts.html [2] http://conservancy.softwarefreedom.org/ [3] www.nabble.com/Squeak-3.10.1-Released-td17495566.html -- tim Rowledge; tim(a)rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Science is imagination equipped with grappling hooks.

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My view on Traits
by Igor Stasenko 04 Jun '08

04 Jun '08

Traits is major feature added since 3.9. And i think it should STAY. I don't see any good reason, why next releases should not support traits. Instead of thinking about, how to get rid of them, i think we should think about, what in traits implementation prevents people from loading code based on 3.8 without much stress, and based on this knowledge, refactor traits to be more compatible with other non-traitified code. But they should stay! -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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The version 3.10 does not work on Linux.
by Diogenes Moreira 03 Jun '08

03 Jun '08

--------- Sorry by my google english-------------- The version 3.10 does not work on Linux. Folks. This afternoon download the 2 (3.10 and 3.10-1 Versions) official versions from the official FTP but these images doesn't run on Linux (my desktop is a kubuntu.). By someone reason, world doesn't is displayed . As I did not leave any log or anything similar I cant give you more details. I Understand, that most of you have mac and this is the test platform by excellence, but take into consideration that there are an enormous number of people who do not have the resources and the only alternative we have left (without falling into piracy, off course) , is linux. Furthermore, since the personal field, I recommend give more support to open sources platforms, of which we are a part. Giving more support as Mac and Windows platforms, is a sort of betrayal. I really cant judge (in addition to recently that I am in this community) what are the motivations that each has to carry squeak ahead, but I can say is that Squeak must be faithful to their roots and ideals and become an option allowing the development of quality in the purest form possible POO. Since no environments objects "Clean" are not part of the technology of "Main Stream" I think that everyone is responsible is reached REALES consistent with what is preaches in Squeak and not just to be supportive "dummy" to open source platforms and development is made on platforms and shut out of reach for most of us who we live south of Rio Grande. As a last resort I had to download and use the latest images of Demian Causses (which actually runs on all platforms supported by squeak). I do not take bad, but I think that instead of discussing fribolidades as renaming a squeak or if it is only a platform for research or not, we should seek to improve this towards a modular platform and have a solid. For this goal we need the board to take reins in the matter and will lead to the release team with a clear objective, and not be carried by winds from a list of mail or those who IRC # pass. I believe that the inclusion of Dan Ingalls on the board would take such an effect, but it seems that we will have to wait for another leader emerges who drives the fate of squeak. I hope you do not take my comments wrong, try to be as frank as possible. I ask forgiveness if something political mistake committed, but this is what I think. I write the mail in two languages I know to be more clear with everyone. Honestly. La version 3.10 no funciona en linux. Amigos: Esta tarde baje las 2 versiones oficiales, que estan el ftp de squeak y ninguna de estas funciona en linux (mi desktop es un kubuntu.). Por algún motivo particular nunca se abre el mundo. Como no me deja ningun log no puedo darles mas detalles. Yo en tiendo que la mayoría de ustedes tenga mac, y esa sea la plataforma de prueba por excelencia, pero tengan en cuenta que hay una enorme cantidad de gente que no disponemos de los recursos y la única alternativa que nos queda (sin caer en la piratería porsupuesto), es linux. Por otro lado, y ya desde el ambito personal, les recomiendo que apoyen mas a las plataformas open sources, de la cuales somos parte. Dar mas soporte a plataformas como mac y windows, es algún tipo de traición. Realmente no puedo juzgar. (ademas que hace poco tiempo que estoy en esta comunidad) cuales son las motivaciones que cada uno tiene para formar parte de Squeak, pero lo que si puedo decir, es que Squeak debe ser fiel a sus raices e ideales, y convertirse en una opcion de calidad que permita desarrollar en la forma mas pura posible la POO. Dado que los entornos de objetos "Limpios" no son parte de las tecnología del "Main Stream" creo que es reponsabilidad de todos, que los se llegue a realeses coherentes con lo que se predica en Squeak y no solo que se de soporte "dummy" a las plataformas open source, y que el desarrollo se haga sobre plataformas cerradas y fuera del alcance de la mayoria de nosotros que vivimos al sur de rio grande. Como ultimo recurso tuve que bajar y usar las ultimas imagenes de Demian Causso (que realmente funcionan en todos las plataforma soportadas por squeak). No me tomen a mal, pero creo que en lugar de discutir fribolidades como cambiar el nombre a squeak o si es solo una plataforma de investigacion o no, deberíamos buscar mejorar esta en pos de una tener una plataforma modular y solida. Para este objetivo necesitamos que el board tome acciones al respeto y conduzca al release team con un objetivo claro, y no sea llevado por los vientos de una lista de mail o los que pase en #IRC. Yo crei que la inclusion de Dan Ingalls en el board iba a tener en ese efecto, pero parece que vamos a tener que esperar que surja otro lider que conduzca el destino de squeak. Espero que no tomen a mal mis comentarios, trate de ser lo mas franco posible. Les pido perdon si cometi algo error politico, pero esto es lo que pienso. Sinceramente.

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Two methods sharing source code?
by Martin Beck 03 Jun '08

03 Jun '08

Hi there, for some reasons, I want to have two methods sharing the same source code base. So if I change one method within the browser, the other would change, too. Is this possible in Squeak? And, would the usual tools work with that? Regards, Martin

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Squeak Forums (was: Our website in other languages too? (and forums?))
by Giuseppe Luigi Punzi 02 Jun '08

02 Jun '08

Hi Janko, list.. On Mon, 26 May 2008 12:38:27 +0200 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> wrote: > > It could be that someone is more fan of forums like PhPBB while others > are more used of pure mailing lists. With a right mail client you can > organize your mails quite close to the forum like. Also in terms of > priority I think the multilingual website is more important right now. > Yes, probably multilingual website is more important, but, an official Squeak Forum, can give us a site, where all the community, in all the languages, are there. You don't need to subscribe to Squeak-Dev, Squeak-Announce, SqueakRos, v3dot10, Squeak-Beginners, Squeak-UI, and so on. Probably, for much people, is better maillist. But Maillist is not more comfortable. You can put rules to a mail client and move the mails to folders. And configure again to read in other computer. I do this, but a web interface to read, reply, comment, and post, is more easy IMHO. In maillist is harder to find something, or reply to more than one person. This without taking in count the digest. Reply to more than one mail with digest turned on is something like inferno. Other advantage is for newbies. Newbies every day is more younger, and youngers, is more familiarized with forums rather than maillists. And, the use of a maillist could be a disadvantage for somebody new searching for support. > But you have quite active Squeak in Spanish mailing list: > http://www.nabble.com/Squeak-in-Spanish-f14188.html ? I know I'm active, but this lists, is not official on SqueakFoundation. This, could be sound stupid, but, not all people will search on Yahoo Groups for a spanish "official" community for Squeak. As I said, this is only my opinion. I use it forums in other communities, and, really, is more easy and comfortable for the day by day. -- Giuseppe Luigi Punzi <glpunzi(a)lordzealon.com> <http://www.lordzealon.com>

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Removing Balloon-Simulation
by Keith Hodges 02 Jun '08

02 Jun '08

I am working on my script for cleaning a Squeak 3.10 image. can anyone tell me why I cant remove the classes in the category Balloon-Simulation without things breaking? thanks in advance Keith

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Etoys documentation in Spanish
by Yoshiki Ohshima 02 Jun '08

02 Jun '08

Hello, I came back from an OLPC event held in Cambridge, MA and saw a lot of people from Latin America countries. Uruguay and Peru are officially deploying hundreds of thousands of XO laptops, and other countries are trying to do similar or smaller scale pilot test. The "vibe" (as Alan wrote) or the feeling of "making progress" was very strong. During the event, I was asked a lot of times about documentation in Spanish. I know there are bunch of documentation done in Spanish (in Latin America and in Spain), but I couldn't point out many of them by myself. I merely managed to point to the translation of the Powerful Ideas book but that was it. I think it would be nice to have a place to share these documentations, and have a single location to look at. Let us say if we have a good "documentation and curriculum" section on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Etoys/lang-es, and people who have done documentations in Spanish add theirs to it, that would be nice. If you think it is a good idea, please start the section on the wiki and add the documentations? I will later check the page and let the people who are doing deployment and contents making in these countries know about it. Thank you! -- Yoshiki

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Its a shame
by Keith Hodges 31 May '08

31 May '08

Dear Edgar, My own personal goal with my contributions to 3.11 is to encourage teamwork, the contributions of others and the potential for integration of the various existing streams of squeak past present and future. My other goal is to continue to have a solid basis on which to build commercial applications. I believe that Matthew and others share these goals, and we also recognize that it is not going to be easy to achieve. Having professed this goal a number of months ago, I find it very disappointing and somewhat ironic we now have 3 different planned routes forward for 3.10+. Especially since the fundamentals of the way all three branches have proposed moving forward are essentially the same. For you to say there has been no progress in 8 months indicates to me that you haven't looked at the progress that IS being made. I think there has been lots of progress. Example 1 ======== If we take a goal of 3.10 and 3.11, that being to unload packages from the image all the way back to a kernel image and make them loadable again. Kernel images dont have a UI, so if we do not have an effective tool for loading things back in again, there is no point in taking things out in the first place. Hopefully Sake/Packages is that tool. So with your infinite knowledge of loading lots of things into squeak to build FunSqueak, there is a great deal that you can contribute to the community effort of 3.11. You could help fill Sake/Packages with your knowledge of how to load and unload packages into 3.10. Example 2 ======== Some that know better than I have stated that Atomic Loading is needed for effectively managing loading/unloading crucial packages in the kernel. Monticello 1.5 has supported Atomic Loading for a while, however there have been some System Editor bugs to iron out, which we now think has been done. So in the past 8 months the possibility of Atomic loading has moved from coded and guaranteed to crash your image to actually usable. This is progress, because without it we know that the release team would expect real pain the closer the KernelImage ideal is reached. Example 3 ======== One major hindrance to the different streams working together has been the traits issue. Thanks to Matthew's UnloadTraits script this is no longer as big an issue as it was. The above three examples demonstrate that there has indeed been significant progress in the past 8 months, and these are not the only examples. The current situation is that we have some already overworked people working on different things, and there is always room for more contributions. However we know that our sub-projects will eventually work together for good. None of us feel we need to take over and "do it all ourselves". There are lots and lots of smaller sub-projects to which you could contribute, to the team effort. so how about it? Keith

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Organizing VM releases [Was: Re: [squeak-dev] The version 3.10 does not work on Linux.]
by Igor Stasenko 31 May '08

31 May '08

2008/5/31 Giovanni Corriga <giovanni(a)corriga.net>: > Brad Fuller ha scritto: >> >> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Giovanni Corriga <giovanni(a)corriga.net> >> wrote: >>> >>> Igor Stasenko ha scritto: >>>> >>>> 2008/5/30 Diogenes Moreira <diogenes.moreira(a)gmail.com>: >>>> >>>> The release team pays attention on releasing images, not for releasing >>>> VMs. >>>> For each platform we have different people who supporting the platform >>>> code. >>>> >>> Am I the only one who thinks that this is wrong? >> >> It seems appropriate that people with the specific skills of the >> platform should maintain the VM code. >> Doesn't it? >> > > I'm not talking about mantaining, I'm talking about releasing. Squeak is the > only system that I know of where the VM/interpreter is not released at the > same time as "the runtime". We should try and have new VMs released when we > release the new image, if only to make things more understandable for the > beginners. > I don't think that beginners have relation to this. Beginners clicking on download link, that's all they need to know :) But you are right that we should think about making more centralized approach for maintaining VM runtimes. At least for major platforms. I see it with following workflow: - someone suggests fix/update/new feature - a new update request ticket is placed in list of squeak VM updates - maintainers get new stuff working on their platform - once all maintainers confirmed that new update is ready, we releasing new VM version for all platforms. - update ticked closed I think this topic worth discussing during next Leadership meeting. > Giovanni > > Giovanni > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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Getting Squeak3.10 to work under problem Linuxes
by Jerome Peace 31 May '08

31 May '08

I have posted the obvious change set to: http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7068 Squeak is translucent under X compositing window managers The changeset is just a postscript to reset the Display depth. "Postscript: " Display newDepth: 32 . Drop it on a squeak window. Install the changeset. Save the image. Hth, Yours in service and curiosity, --Jerome Peace

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