Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Some comments:
- This is an attempt to make a minimial website, ie, let's keep to an absolute minimum the bits that have to be directly maintained and push most of the maintenace off to the squeak swiki. This means that, basically, the web site will only be as good as the Swiki, so, keep that swiki up to date. I'm leaning very hard towards the idea that squeak.org should be one web page.
- I tried not to overload the page with too many links. I may not have succeeded. While a large chunk of the squeak community are programmers, not all of us are. Unlike ruby-lang.org, perl.org, python.org, et al which are aimed at programmers we need to appeal to a broader group. Ergo the proposed squeak.org is less (I think) busy.
- Yes, I borrowed the Mozilla Europe stylesheet. I think I can do that, but, if not, the look can be changed. It's all CSS. Blue seems like a reasonable squeak color.
- The wording of all of this is subject to change. I am alleged to natively speak some form of English, but I sure can't write it.
- Since I'm alergic to wearing all black, I'm obviously not a designer either. Apparently some real black dressed designer people will have a go at the design and try to make it better.
If you've already commented and I seem to have ignored your comment, could you send it again? I didn't ignore it, I just got overloaded.
And finally, I wanted to put a pointer to Tweak, but, tweak is too common a name and therefore I couldn't find a good web page. Could someone point me in the right direction there?
If someone would like to make a good "other big projects with squeak" page on the swiki I'd also like to point to that. The current other projects with squeak is just a bit too big.
thanks!
cheers
bruce
Looks nice! Boy, it sure does put the pressure on the Swiki pages to get updated!
Is anyone going to be around to actually post to the news area? That would be great to have, but only if it gets updated. Perhaps some software can automatically trash old news items, so that we don't have an embarassingly out of date site if there is a lapse of updates?
Squeakland.org is a good "big squeak project" to link to, unless there is some better site for the educators. Also, there is a Projects page on the Swiki.
-Lex
What bruce presented is really a draft resulting of some brainstorming we got. We hope to come with a better design (adrian designer will try) and after we will set up a SmallWiki wiki to host that following the www.seaside.st web site. So that several people can edit the site. The challenge is to be able to package well squeak and this is complex since Squeak is so rich.
Let's back doing for now.
Hi all!
"Bruce O'Neel" edoneel@sdf.lonestar.org wrote:
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Yup, I at least like it.
Some comments:
- This is an attempt to make a minimial website, ie, let's
keep to an absolute minimum the bits that have to be directly maintained and push most of the maintenace off to the squeak swiki. This means that, basically, the web site will only be as good as the Swiki, so, keep that swiki up to date. I'm leaning very hard towards the idea that squeak.org should be one web page.
And yes, that is a nice idea. One page.
- I tried not to overload the page with too many links. I may not
have succeeded. While a large chunk of the squeak community are programmers, not all of us are. Unlike ruby-lang.org, perl.org, python.org, et al which are aimed at programmers we need to appeal to a broader group. Ergo the proposed squeak.org is less (I think) busy.
I am mainly missing two things:
- An FAQ link. Though this should be a more high level FAQ than the one at the Swiki. And it would be nice to have it in the same style - perhaps simply renaming the Documentation tab to FAQ, and then have it there? A second page (tab) but keeping the stuff to the left and right and just replacing the center part?
- A longer list of "main" links, perhaps simply below the central blue section instead of off to the right. This means say 10 links to the most important other Squeaky places we know, including at least: www.squeakland.org people.squeakfoundation.org www.squeakfoundation.org www.croquet.org minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak
Or make that the third tab.
- Yes, I borrowed the Mozilla Europe stylesheet. I think I can do
that, but, if not, the look can be changed. It's all CSS. Blue seems like a reasonable squeak color.
Yeah, but we gotta make the images transparent. :) We could also put a "This design borrowed from Mozilla" and mention that the license allows it.
- The wording of all of this is subject to change. I am alleged
to natively speak some form of English, but I sure can't write it.
- Since I'm alergic to wearing all black, I'm obviously not a designer
either. Apparently some real black dressed designer people will have a go at the design and try to make it better.
If you've already commented and I seem to have ignored your comment, could you send it again? I didn't ignore it, I just got overloaded.
And finally, I wanted to put a pointer to Tweak, but, tweak is too common a name and therefore I couldn't find a good web page. Could someone point me in the right direction there?
If someone would like to make a good "other big projects with squeak" page on the swiki I'd also like to point to that. The current other projects with squeak is just a bit too big.
Ok, but I actually think that the "only the most important links"-list should be on the site itself.
thanks!
cheers
bruce
regards, Göran
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:10:47 +0000, Bruce O'Neel edoneel@sdf.lonestar.org wrote:
Blue seems like a reasonable squeak color.
Blue, or Pink? ;)
- Since I'm alergic to wearing all black, I'm obviously not a designer
either. Apparently some real black dressed designer people will have a go at the design and try to make it better.
I don't give a <peep>. It looks ok, no-one will run away scared, and if a hacker coded it, hackers will have a chance of maintaining it. Way more important than a one-off great design by some sort of half-baked artist.
Great work! I like it. Let's get it out there :)
(Do you want to have write access to the new location of squeak.org so you can work on it in the place where squeak.org will likely be in whatever timeframe network solutions needs to be convinced that Dan is allowed to repoint stuff?)
Cees de Groot wrote:
(Do you want to have write access to the new location of squeak.org so you can work on it in the place where squeak.org will likely be in whatever timeframe network solutions needs to be convinced that Dan is allowed to repoint stuff?)
Perhaps the better question is, whether Dan himself is convinced to repoint stuff. If I understand correctly, the idea is to have only a single page for squeak.org and everything else is located in an arbitrary number of chaos-wikis?
Well, I must say here, the idea is.. ehem... Squeak should have at least one place as comprehensive as possible, where it offers a homogeneous look and balanced information and when possible in a special design which underlines Squeak's very nature and contrasts from the uniform design of blogs and wikis.
This is not the sort of work which can be done by an ever changing bunch of not-so-collaborating-people. Terrific examples of what I mean are pages at the Minnow site like:
- New Squeaker questions - The Newbie page
These are really killer pages - they kill every interest of a newcomer or a random surfer in a few seconds.
Current Squeak.org has the right concept, it is just a bit outdated.
Regards, Martin
Martin Wirblat sql.mawi@t-link.de wrote:
Cees de Groot wrote:
(Do you want to have write access to the new location of squeak.org so you can work on it in the place where squeak.org will likely be in whatever timeframe network solutions needs to be convinced that Dan is allowed to repoint stuff?)
Perhaps the better question is, whether Dan himself is convinced to repoint stuff. If I understand correctly, the idea is to have only a single page for squeak.org and everything else is located in an arbitrary number of chaos-wikis?
The repoint will first go to the same content. We have it mirrored over.
We will not take any new website online until due process, there are a number of other people working in this area in parallell so the different designs needs comparison etc etc.
So no worries. :)
regards, Göran
Hi Bruce, I really liked the page. An odd thing that I encountered was the squeak logo on the top left corner. I don't know if the logo was supposed to have that background color. It kind of look odd, don't it?
I also support your idea of a very minimal site and I wanted to ask if the "Latest news" section is really necesary. Because if for some reason that section stop being updated, then the site (and therefore the product) will inmmediately look dead to an outsider.
Instead of "Latest news" I propose a box with statistics that will show that Squeak is alive and kicking. From the top of my head we could have:
- number of new packages registered on SM on the current month (and total) - number of new mails on the current month on squeakdev - number of new mails on the current month on squeakland - number of new bugs reported on the current month. - number of new bugs fixed on the current month.
Lastly. Great work bruce! I really liked and sorry that I can only help with words and not code.
Regards, Hernán
Bruce O'Neel wrote:
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Some comments:
- This is an attempt to make a minimial website, ie, let's
keep to an absolute minimum the bits that have to be directly maintained and push most of the maintenace off to the squeak swiki. This means that, basically, the web site will only be as good as the Swiki, so, keep that swiki up to date. I'm leaning very hard towards the idea that squeak.org should be one web page.
- I tried not to overload the page with too many links. I may not
have succeeded. While a large chunk of the squeak community are programmers, not all of us are. Unlike ruby-lang.org, perl.org, python.org, et al which are aimed at programmers we need to appeal to a broader group. Ergo the proposed squeak.org is less (I think) busy.
- Yes, I borrowed the Mozilla Europe stylesheet. I think I can do
that, but, if not, the look can be changed. It's all CSS. Blue seems like a reasonable squeak color.
- The wording of all of this is subject to change. I am alleged
to natively speak some form of English, but I sure can't write it.
- Since I'm alergic to wearing all black, I'm obviously not a designer
either. Apparently some real black dressed designer people will have a go at the design and try to make it better.
If you've already commented and I seem to have ignored your comment, could you send it again? I didn't ignore it, I just got overloaded.
And finally, I wanted to put a pointer to Tweak, but, tweak is too common a name and therefore I couldn't find a good web page. Could someone point me in the right direction there?
If someone would like to make a good "other big projects with squeak" page on the swiki I'd also like to point to that. The current other projects with squeak is just a bit too big.
thanks!
cheers
bruce
Hi Bruce,
+1! A great step forward and ready for production IMHO. I applaud the greater reliance on wiki. There'll now be less chance of dead pages and more reason to make the wiki better.
I'll post a version with some proposed tweaks later perhaps.
Though it isn't a wiki page it would be nice to think of it that way. Perhaps we could have it updated on the 1st of the month whenever someone has posted a version that we/you/ted prefer. Being a single page makes this pretty easy.
-Simon
Hi,
Yes, thinking of it as a wiki page with a slightly slower edit cycle might be a good model.
cheers
bruce
Simon Michael simon@joyful.com wrote:
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:33:56 -0800 From: Simon Michael simon@joyful.com Subject: Re: Proposed web site To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org reply-to: The general-purpose Squeak developers list squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org content-length: 501
Hi Bruce,
+1! A great step forward and ready for production IMHO. I applaud the greater reliance on wiki. There'll now be less chance of dead pages and more reason to make the wiki better.
I'll post a version with some proposed tweaks later perhaps.
Though it isn't a wiki page it would be nice to think of it that way. Perhaps we could have it updated on the 1st of the month whenever someone has posted a version that we/you/ted prefer. Being a single page makes this pretty easy.
-Simon
"Bruce O'Neel" edoneel@sdf.lonestar.org wrote:
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Well, it looks reasonably well layed out on Safari but on both my main browsers (yes, on RISC OS of course) it looks _terrible_. Maybe people don't care about that but it would be nice to have the page be in simple enough html to work well on any browser. I wish I were expert enough to make specific recommendations. It _is_ possible to make page layouts like this which will work in older browsers.
I really don't like the balloon graphic. I suggest a much better graphic would be an actual screenshot of an image with some interesting tools open. Making it a link to more screenshots of the tools - accompanied by some explanation of what they do, why they are useful etc would be helpful in explaining the system to newcomers. People like pictures.
And of course I expect to see the RISC OS port pointed to in the list along with unix, mac and that other thing from redmond.
tim -- Tim Rowledge, tim@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim Modem: How a Southerner asks for seconds...
Tim Rowledge a écrit :
"Bruce O'Neel" edoneel@sdf.lonestar.org wrote:
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Well, it looks reasonably well layed out on Safari but on both my main browsers (yes, on RISC OS of course) it looks _terrible_. Maybe people don't care about that but it would be nice to have the page be in simple enough html to work well on any browser. I wish I were expert enough to make specific recommendations. It _is_ possible to make page layouts like this which will work in older browsers.
I don't know the actual state of RiscOS browsers (I once was a user and developper on RiscOS, still have some) but the problem is that antic browser use a layout based on table, which is sort of evil as it has been told to me. The proposed layout seems to be based on CSS layer, which is the today standard. Nevertheless, I was successfull browsing the page with the text browser 'links', which is cool. I hope no one will ask for the new web site to be scamper friendly ;-)
I think the proposed site looks great. Maybe we could have a low-fidelity one that works in Scamper?
Hi,
It looks ok in lynx. Do you have any idea what part of the site goes pear shaped in your RISC os browser?
Ie, is it the fact that it uses CSS? Is it that CSS partially works and then things go bad? What other sites seem ot use CSS but look good in our browser?
thanks!
cheers
bruce
Tim Rowledge tim@sumeru.stanford.edu wrote:
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:15:36 -0800 From: Tim Rowledge tim@sumeru.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Proposed web site To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org reply-to: The general-purpose Squeak developers list squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org content-length: 1251
"Bruce O'Neel" edoneel@sdf.lonestar.org wrote:
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Well, it looks reasonably well layed out on Safari but on both my main browsers (yes, on RISC OS of course) it looks _terrible_. Maybe people don't care about that but it would be nice to have the page be in simple enough html to work well on any browser. I wish I were expert enough to make specific recommendations. It _is_ possible to make page layouts like this which will work in older browsers.
I really don't like the balloon graphic. I suggest a much better graphic would be an actual screenshot of an image with some interesting tools open. Making it a link to more screenshots of the tools - accompanied by some explanation of what they do, why they are useful etc would be helpful in explaining the system to newcomers. People like pictures.
And of course I expect to see the RISC OS port pointed to in the list along with unix, mac and that other thing from redmond.
tim
Tim Rowledge, tim@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim Modem: How a Southerner asks for seconds...
Bruce ONeel edoneel@sdf.lonestar.org wrote:
Hi,
It looks ok in lynx. Do you have any idea what part of the site goes pear shaped in your RISC os browser?
Take a look at the image (3/4 scaled & low-ish res jpeg) on http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/5594 to see some of what I mean.
As for pages of a similar sort that look ok... well it could take a while to dig them out. Don't hold your breath! Oh! Actually, try the one I am looking at right now for my news; www.drobe.co.uk
tim -- Tim Rowledge, tim@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
Hi,
I added pictures of how the site looks on my Windows box. I tried with Mozilla Firefox (my regular browser) and with Internet Explorer. It seems that both browsers have problem rendering that page.
Regards, Hernán
Tim Rowledge wrote:
Bruce ONeel edoneel@sdf.lonestar.org wrote:
Hi,
It looks ok in lynx. Do you have any idea what part of the site goes pear shaped in your RISC os browser?
Take a look at the image (3/4 scaled & low-ish res jpeg) on http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/5594 to see some of what I mean.
As for pages of a similar sort that look ok... well it could take a while to dig them out. Don't hold your breath! Oh! Actually, try the one I am looking at right now for my news; www.drobe.co.uk
tim
Tim Rowledge, tim@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
Bruce O'Neel wrote:
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
How is this going? Can I help?
Would we be likely be seeing an updated site soon? Who actually maintains that site? Cees?
Mikevdg.
Hi!
Michael van der Gulik schrieb:
How is this going? Can I help?
Sure. It is a good idea for anyone who wants to contribute to join the new mailing list of the website team. Just send a mail to the following address:
website-subscribe@discuss.squeakfoundation.org
Thanks again Göran for setting this up.
Regards, Alex
Bruce -
Should we have a "Bug Tracking" link on that page that points to either Mantis or the Swiki page about Mantis?
I like the look ... except for the colorized Squeak logo. I dunno, it just seems to clash with the banner color and the balloon image colors.
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Alexander Lazarević -
Brent Vukmer -
Bruce O'Neel -
Bruce ONeel
-
Cees de Groot -
David Mitchell -
goran.krampe＠bluefish.se -
Hernan Tylim -
Hilaire Fernandes -
Lex Spoon -
Martin Wirblat -
Michael van der Gulik -
Simon Michael -
stéphane ducasse -
Tim Rowledge