Hi Andreas,

Actually, I've written my message...

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2005-December/ 098710.html

...also in response to this previous thread you're mentioning, in which I said to produce something concrete to talk about. Have you missed my post?

Since there were no concernes raised and there is quite some pending work to get pushed in 3.9a, we decided to make the traitss changes go in now.

But I'm still open for questions and feedback, of course. However, I think, a discussion should rather happen today than tomorrow...

Cheers, Adrian

On Dec 19, 2005, at 20:40 , Andreas Raab wrote:

Hi Stef -

Given your message I assume that there has been closure on the following discussion?

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2005-October/ 096462.html

I'm asking because I haven't seen anything in response to my last message in the above thread but I might have missed some discussions.

Cheers,

• Andreas

stéphane ducasse wrote:

...

Hi all Traits have been pushed in the update stream. We will put soon an image on the ftp. Adrian and alex have been preparing some extra menus for the browser and the fact that we do not see uses: in class definition when not needed (ie when the class does not use traits). These changes are to come. This means that traits will be unnoticed if not needed. Next update will contain a lot of simplex fixes that have been pending. If you get frustrated because your cool fixes is not harvested please shout ;). We are trying to get a team on foot to review more actively the fixes, if you are interested please join v3.9 mailing-list. Stef and adrian PS: Marcus is back from chile and we will schedule the final release certainly for end of february or mid march. So we will certainly move in beta beginning of february.

On 12/20/05, Martin Wirblat sql.mawi@t-link.de wrote:

• 98% of all Squeak users want Tweak and not Traits.

That, of course, is a completely unfounded figure.

Imagine the amount of anger that will come over you if they find out that Traits delays Tweak or makes it even "somehow" persistently unavailable to them.

If.

If Tweak even ever gets included into mainstream Squeak. If Tweak conflicts with Traits (why should it?). If there's no way to cleanly resolve it.

Lots of ifs there...

Anyway, I think the 3.9 plans, including Traits inclusion, have been posted for a long time. Yes, there have been some concerns raised, but I feel the overall conclusion was that the benefits outweigh the doubts. 3.9a is *alpha* code, too. No-one, certainly not during the coming months, is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to move your development over...

On Dec 20, 2005, at 00:00 , Martin Wirblat wrote:

Adrian Lienhard wrote:

...

Since there were no concernes raised and there is quite some pending work to get pushed in 3.9a, we decided to make the traitss changes go in now.

No concerns were raised??? Probably you don't mean what you say ;-)

This is exactly what I meant! In the previous mail I referred to when saying "no concerns were raised" it said:

"I encourage interested people to have a look soon and to bring up any questions or concerns, so that we can avoid stalling the 3.9a process."

and *nobody* brought anything up.

If you have something concrete to complain about (breaks Squeak, badly implemented etc.), let me know. Maybe I should note something obvious here (I guess, you have not tried out this image...): you don't have to use traits, if you don't want to. So, what you say is that because you don't like traits, you want to prevent other people from using this evil stuff.

Maybe somebody else is in the mood to discuss with you about traits in general (after all, its not my research and I'm doing this work because I was asked to so and because I know there are other people that would like to use traits).

Adrian

Hi martin

it occured to me the following

• 98% of all Squeak users want Tweak and not Traits.

count me in the 98% of people that would love to have Tweak on top of Squeak (even if we can discuss some XML in class def but this is a detail that could be fixed in no time). I ***always*** said that. Google the archive.

Now if you want to help to see this happening, you can join the forces with the ToolPlus tool set. The effort people have been doing and we started to integrate is key to be able to switch between graphical framework. So if you have time, will or skills, please help.

Stef

PS: I'm currently too zen to comment the other part of your email and as a gift to you from a guy "falling on his keyboard" and making communication mistakes like me, I would suggest you to pay attention to your overall credibility in the long term. Be positive and participate on making the stone rolling this is much more fun that grumbling and judging.

Hi andreas

Have a look at it. We always kept in mind the original discussions we got and did our best. Note that the uses: {} will disappear when not needed. Adrian was preparing some changes but we prefered not to add them at the last moment. All our plates are too full :). Now we are evaluating a new omnibrowser version of the browser and nathanael promised that he will help :).

I hope to have the time to play with tweak over holidays and dream about the second book. But building a new lab with a different cultur is difficult and time consuming.

Happy christmas.

Stef

PS: I put a new image on the ftp so that we all do not lose hours....

PSPS: I encourage everybody to play with the system. Now if the majority does not like what we did we will take all the consequences. As in politic, we should learn from feedback without losing our souls. I think that there are enough space for multiple distributions of squeak.

+2 :)

On 20 déc. 05, at 12:31, Cees De Groot wrote:

On 12/20/05, stéphane ducasse ducasse@iam.unibe.ch wrote:

...

PSPS: I encourage everybody to play with the system. Now if the majority does not like what we did we will take all the consequences. As in politic, we should learn from feedback without losing our souls. I think that there are enough space for multiple distributions of squeak.

Heh. Well, two *facts* here for everyone who is concerned about this move:

• An overwhelming majority of the community loved the original

research, and lots of people were drooling over the possibilities this would open (like tackling the Collections, Streams, Morphic hierarchies for starters ;-)).

• The update updates only a couple of core packages (Kernel, System,

Tools) and one non-core package (Monticello). Which means that all the other stuff, including two GUI frameworks, in the image, is not affected by Traits. Therefore I'd be extremely surprised if Tweak would somehow have major trouble living in this image (or any other tool).

Think, Check, Google, ReadTheMailArchives before you talk, people...

There are some community members silently pitting awful amounts of time into 3.9a, and shouting "Fire" where there isn't even a faintest glow is no way to reward them for their efforts.