On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Aaron wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 7, 2001, at 04:57 PM, Rosemary Michelle Simpson wrote:
> 
> > Completely agree!  The quality of the teacher is critical to the kind of
> > experiences I had and that you had in Biology.  I was taking issue with
> > your general statement about "how the first two years of college seem to
> > go" and college education being a giant waste of money.
> 
> Ok, my apologies, this is getting pretty unrelated to Squeak...

I think it is extremely related, at least to the use of Squeak in
education, because real human experiences are what we have to build on if
the Squeak tools are to be effective.  Solid theory to facilitate
extrapolation and transfer to other domains plus grounding in actual
experiences, not just speculation about what people want.  So, I find your
accounts to be extremely relevant

> Don't get me wrong- I think college is overrated, and is unnecessary for
> many, and thus a complete waste of money for a lot of people. However,
> that's the reality with the current job market

For me the job market issue is irrelevant wrt the value of college.  I
have always opposed the idea of college as a job training institution.
The role of college is much more to open new ways of thinking,
strategies for dealing with conflicting information, and skill for
exploring new domains.

The world and the job market rapidly change, so that skills and specific
knowledge is very quickly outdated.  The ongoing need is for minds trained
in analyzing and synthesizing previously unknown material, minds that can
think outside the box.  This is precisely what really good college
courses, both in the humanities and in the sciences, provide.  Learning
how to think and adapt to change. This was true when I graduated in 1963
and is far more true now.

Even though I have spent my adult life in computers, I have always been
glad that my major was History, because it was there, and in the
philosophy courses I took, that I learned how to think, how to see
patterns, how to avoid cognitive package deals.  IBM knew this in the late
60's when they were hiring for the S/360 technical support positions -
they hired liberal arts graduates who had good spatial, pattern
recognition, and logical skills and then trained them in the specific
computer skills.

> In my first two years of college, only that Biology I class would I say
> was worth the money.  Everything else thus far I've gained very little
> other than what could be gleaned from the text book and other print
> resources.
> 
> While that may have something to do with the school I go to, which isn't
> a really great public or private college.  Maybe I'm just know more
> than most people at this school and at this stage of their education.
> But for whatever reason, I don't spend much time out of class doing
> homework (at least there's not terribly much busywork) or really
> learning anything beyond what's in the required readings.

Why not?  Why don't you use the resources of the Internet to expand upon
the required readings and to explore things you are interested in with
other communities you can find online.  Like this one. 

> No, I don't like to admit that.  I pay for all of my education, so 
> admitting that it is at least a partial waste of money kind of hurts,
> but it's true.  I also expect and hope for that to change, in my next
> few years.
>
> I find this most true of a CS education.  Recently, most CS majors are
> there because it means a job, and it's overkill for people who are
> concerned with nothing in life other than making $80k/year.

Tragically, that's much too true.  It doesn't have to be for you, however.
CS is one of the richest areas to explore on the Web and there are many
many lists, sub-communities such as this one, that explore specific areas
quite deeply.  The fact that your peers have limited views of what life is
about doesn't have to limit you.

 > It sounds arrogant and short-sighted, and it probably is... 

You sound, quite legitimately, frustrated to me.  Hope what I said helps.
That is my intention.

R.