Squeak-dev April 2009

squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

104 participants
168 discussions

Ubuntu package maintainers help
by Jerome Peace 21 Apr '09

21 Apr '09

Hi Bert and all, Still catching up. This is an answer to the other half of the same post >[squeak-dev] Ubuntu package maintainers help >Bert Freudenberg bert at freudenbergs.de >Sun Apr 19 11:25:12 UTC 2009 > > >On 19.04.2009, at 01:25, Jerome Peace wrote: > >> >> Hi Bert and all, >> >> Response to Berts replys: >>http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-April/135551.ht… >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-April/135572.ht… >>http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-April/135662.ht… >> Right now it is undecided. Though I find your last post most >> discouraging. Is that what you intended? > > >Of course not. Good. I have found your replies the most infomational and therefore helpful. >I just do not think adding yet one more set of DEB >packages helps improve the situation. It did not help in the past. Until others are cool with distributing a full squeak package, I think squeak.org should provide assistance. Also, I thing it will help. The first important thing is to help others try squeak or etoys or scratch. The larger the crowd the easier the political problems of getting things distributed w/o our efforts. If Etoys was distributed without sound you would be called upon to act. I feel that way about squeak. And I am aware that scratch is facing the same problems. So its time. > I'd like to see it done right this time, and I feel the situation is much >more favorable now than it was ever before. I agree about the situation being favorable. As for being "done right", anything worth doing right is worth doing poorly. Partial progress counts. Slightly less broken is a good trend. Do enough of it and you find things are being "done right". Then you can relax and find another focus. >So if anything I want to *encourage* you and others to work towards proper packages in the >distros. Volunteer time needs to be protected. Unless paid I decline to take on any responsibility that takes more than an evening to accomplish. To see results I try to have goals whose scope allows them to be reached quickly. If successful I can always add additional goals. It also pays to pick goals that give the most bang for the effort. For right now that means focusing on solving things for one distribution. Ubuntu is a good choice because it is widely distibuted. And as I now have one, I can see when the goal is accomplished. And before that I can play with various workarounds. > >> In the meantime I note that he is focused on debian which spawns >> ubuntu. It is not exactly the same. And not the same in the minds of >> Ubuntu's users. > >As far as I know there is no Ubuntu maintainer for Squeak packages. Yep. That's a problem. Hopefully, we recruit one. >There is interest (for example by the Sugar maintainers) but finding >one specifically for Squeak would be rather valuable. I believe it will happen. The question I am curious about at the moment is how much effort will it be? Can we get one vm package out there and a way to use it with many image based packages. Combining squeak and etoys efforts towards that end might have a good payoff. Or is there a good way to package plugins separate from the vm and the image? Could the squeak vm problem solution be resolved with an update that installs vm-sound-ALSA into the squeak distribution. > >> On our download website there is no specific mention of Ubuntu which >> impedes navigation. >> >> Also the information presented to linux users requires way too many >> decisions for someone just getting started. Trust me on this. > >I know, and I do. > >> We can address this. It is something I would like to oversight board >> not to overlook. If you will pardon the pun. > >As a board member I feel responsible for the long-term sustainability >of the Squeak project. I don't expect the board to change the website. I would like them to bless the goal and help recruit the help. And direct them to "make it so". >Hacks and workarounds can be done by anybody, >you don't need the board for this. > The board can give or with hold priority from a project. Nobody "needs" the board. The board is just there to provide direction and co-ordination. In that they can be very useful. As you have been in this. > >Anyway, for immediate relief I did ask you for a proposal that the >web team could implement right away. Bug trackers work in ignorace searching for the light. My basic proposal is ask someone who has edit access to the website to think about decluttering the download page in general. Adding links for Ubuntu users specifically. Adding a page or two to help linux users to navigate to a download with a minimun number of decisions needed along the way. When they have mulled it over. Let them act on their thoughts. Let us know that they have acted. And accept our feedback for the appreciation it is meant to be. Hth, Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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Ubuntu package maintainers help
by Jerome Peace 21 Apr '09

21 Apr '09

Hi Bert and all, I am slow in comparison with the momentum this thread has picked up. These are responses to a post of Bert's just before the flurry began. >Bert Freudenberg bert at freudenbergs.de >Sun Apr 19 11:25:12 UTC 2009 > > >On 19.04.2009, at 01:25, Jerome Peace wrote: > >> >> Hi Bert and all, >> >> Response to Berts replys: >>http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-April/135551.ht… >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-April/135572.ht… >>http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-April/135662.ht… >>>>> Not so in Linux. Here, building the binary packages that fit into a >>>>> specific Linux distribution is typically done by users of that >>>>> Linux >>>>> version. >>>> >>>> That was not true of the etoys installation from squeakland. It does >>>> not have to be true for distro's squeak.org supplies. >>> >>> Squeakland should provide only Mac and Win installers, and work with >>> the distros to carry an up-to-date Etoys package. >>> >>> Right now there also is an RPM and a DEB package at squeakland, but I >>> see that as a thing of the past. It already leads to confusion when >>> people try to combine those packages with the ones from their distro. >>> The squeakland packages are not even a good model how to package >>> Etoys but more of a hack. >>> >> A hack that saves the day is rather welcome IMHO. > >IMHO we do have enough hacks already. > Hmmm. From where I sit I have a hard time telling what is a hack and what isn't. It works. Or it doesn't work. I can judge. If I get a close look at it then I can tell you if I think I could write it more elegantly. But getting close usually means an long investment in time. So its best to do that sparingly. You are much closer to part of this than I am. So you are seeing the trees which are hackable. I am just trying to deal with the forest. >> Why do you say it is a thing of the past. > >Because having Etoys and Squeak packaged by the distributions is the >only sustainable way forward. > Only??? >Why do you think we spent so much effort on the relicensing? Because >we do want to enjoy the benefits of being part of the larger open- >source community. It's still a big initial effort but will pay off in >the long run. Yes. And the more people we support now, the sooner we will have critical mass to make things easier and more sustainable later. If you will notice, what you and I are doing here now, is leading towards the ease you are seeking. More people who know a thing or two about this are joining in, A solution to the short term problem is starting to come together. The long term problem has not been forgotten. And what we discover here will aid with that too. >> The distro's distribute a squeak that doesn't work. >> That's a thing of the current. It doesn't become a thing of the past >> until people outside of this community act. That action presently is >> in the realm of vaporware or REAL-SOON-NOW. >> >> I have had no response to my addition to Chris's Ubuntu bug report. >> This indicates the future will not come soon. > >But heaping on workarounds does not bring the future closer. We disagree. Partial progress always counts. >Only working with the distribution maintainers does. Only??? > >> Meanwhile people need their software to work. >> >> As a developer I wish to distribute to audiences with fully >> functioning squeaks and etoys. > >I did not phrase it as a direct question in my last post, but what >exactly are you trying to distribute to which audience? User story goals are of necessity a little vague. But here is a shot at your answer: All the bug fixes I have created over the last decade. To those who wish to use squeak. The audience for squeak are the people out there now. And the generations to come. But only if squeak is successful in attracting their interest. Making squeak more interesting is one of the goals of my bug fixes. <snipped and dealt with in a separate post. Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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Re: [vwnc] Any good starting points for a slot car layout program?
by Eliot Miranda 20 Apr '09

20 Apr '09

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 6:24 PM, brett <dragoncity(a)aanet.com.au> wrote: > Hi Eliot, > I think you'd be better off using a CAD program, many have add-ons that > might do exactly what you want, without the problems of trying to > 'drive' the Smalltalk graphics modules , *unless* that's really what you > want to do :-) What I really want to do is a) create an easy to use user interface (everything else I've seen sucks) and b) create "scale models" of real tracks from Google earth images. To do both of these I'd rather have the source (and hence I'd rather have Smalltalk source) than live with a caned program. So I could start with FreeCAD but 3D is perhaps overkill. > > For example 'Design-CAD' offers model rail track layout facilities, with > all the various track types already defined, all you have to do is > place them as you desire. Design-CAD also has a Basic-CAD language > built in for your own developments. Most CAD programs offer similar > facilities. > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:25:59 -0700 > Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi All, > > does anyone know of an extant program for doing model track > > layouts? if not, does anyone know of a good starting point? I want > > a Smalltalk program that will do 2D layouts of scalextric slot car > > track. I want a Smalltalk program, preferrably for a Squeak > > dialect. Any suggestions? > > > > best > > Eliot > > > -- > Cheers, > Brett > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > vwnc(a)cs.uiuc.edu > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc >

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Cuis updates
by Edgar J. De Cleene 20 Apr '09

20 Apr '09

Juan: What about you have a update folder and a button in your image for any could have last things ? For Cuis, this following work but I have troubles, as I think you change name of important classes. Utilities class methodsFor: 'fetching updates' stamp: 'edc 4/20/2009 10:19' prior: 38205565! cuisUpdates "Utilities cuisUpdates " | numero updateDirectory count fileNamesInOrder | numero := (ChangeSorter highestNumberedChangeSet + 1) . updateDirectory := FileDirectory default directoryNamed: 'CuisUpdates'. count := 0. fileNamesInOrder := updateDirectory entries select: [:c | c name asInteger > numero] thenCollect: [:any | any]. fileNamesInOrder do: [:aFileName | (updateDirectory readOnlyFileNamed: aFileName name) fileIntoNewChangeSet. count := count + 1]. PopUpMenu inform: count asString , ' new update file(s) processed.'. SystemVersion current registerUpdate: ChangeSorter highestNumberedChangeSet Great job, I taking my old funny things and convert to Cuis ASAP, starting project SqueakRailRoad. Los cuises vivían al lado de las vias de los trenes alguna vez .... http://www.fotosaves.com.ar/FotosMamiferos/FotosRodentia.html for the curious the animal is Cavy Cavia Pamparum, but Cuis is shorter :=) Edgar

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Any good starting points for a slot car layout program?
by David Faught 20 Apr '09

20 Apr '09

Eliot Miranda wrote: > does anyone know of an extant program for doing model track layouts? if > not, does anyone know of a good starting point? I want a Smalltalk program > that will do 2D layouts of scalextric slot car track. I want a Smalltalk > program, preferrably for a Squeak dialect. Any suggestions? Have you looked at the old Plumbin' game? It was written for MVC. I was able to get it to work with an old Squeak 2.2 VM and image.

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Ubuntu package maintainers help
by Jerome Peace 20 Apr '09

20 Apr '09

>From bert's thread Linux package maintainers need help... > > >Bert Freudenberg bert at freudenbergs.de >Wed Apr 15 13:19:45 UTC 2009 wrote: > <snip old stuff> > >In the closed-source world (Mac, Win) typically the software authors >provide binary packages for end users. This is even true for open- >source software on these platforms, the authors provide ready-to- >install packages, separate from with the source code. That's why we >have Windows and Mac downloads on our website. It's a one-size-fits- >all approach, and all work is done by the authors. I would like to see something like this for Ubuntu. I think it is a good place to start. It gives a reasonable goal to shoot for. Lessons learned can then be applied to other squeak distro's one by one. > >Not so in Linux. Here, building the binary packages that fit into a >specific Linux distribution is typically done by users of that Linux >version. That was not true of the etoys installation from squeakland. It does not have to be true for distro's squeak.org supplies. >These volunteers ("package maintainers") take the source code >from an "upstream" author and make a binary package from that, >typically by writing a few scripts that compile and install the >software in the right place and with the right supporting files (which >may be different for each Linux distribution). > Yes, and to a certain extent that is out of our control. And only under our influence if those in direct control wish to allow it. Chris's complaint to Ubuntu about sound in the squeak distribution will be a year old in May. Even though a solution is known the action to fix it has not happened. >Because of these volunteers it is that you can simply install about >*any* free software from your distro's "software installer". Every >single one of these thousands of packages was added and is maintained >by someone. > >As you can guess, package maintainers are usually no experts in the >software they package. They will try the canonical "./configure; make; >make install" command, and if that appears to work they make a package >from that, do a few tweaks maybe and release it. People can install >that package easily now, and everything appears to be fine. Umm. Part of the problem is the need for a smoke test that shows the problem early. Squeak on loading should show off and sound off. That we can work on. Then when things don't work they won't appear to work. > >Except it's not. E.g., unless the package builder declared a build- >dependency on the "alsa-lib-devel" package (that's what it is called >in Fedora anyway) the Squeak VM will be built without ALSA sound >support. The "configure" script is smart enough to not build the "vm- >sound-ALSA" plugin if it does not find the necessary files. It also >writes out a message that the plugin was disabled. But that is easy to >overlook, and also not fatal - there are good reasons for not wanting >to build that plugin. > >Now what needs to happen is that a user who discovers that sound is >not working must file a bug report for the package *maintainer*. Chris did exactly that. See above. >Not >with the author (us), because that would bypass the maintainer. So use >your distro's bug tracker, not bugs.squeak.org. Um. There is a problem of multiplicity. Each distro has its own tracker. Trackers don't insure action will be taken. See above. What the distro's won't do, we have no control over. Still, as a developer, I want my work distributed on fully working squeak systems. How might this be done by things within our control? >The maintainer either >fixes the problem, or opens an "upstream" bug with the authors. >Sometimes it's even a chain of "upstreams", in Ubuntu's case the >package may come from Debian, so a user would file a report at >Ubuntu's tracker, the Ubuntu maintainer at Debian's tracker, and the >Debian maintainer with us. > >If instead we bypass the maintainers, we get precisely the chicken-and- >egg problem we are in now. The distro packages do not work well, so >the experienced developers do not use them but compile their own. >Which leaves the packages in their bad state because nobody >knowledgeable cares about them. > >To be fair, in the "sound on Ubuntu" case in fact the proper procedure >was followed: >https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/squeak-vm/+bug/235146 >but apparently did not get fully resolved yet. Not sure what needs to >happen next in this specific case. >I've added to the report. We'll see if that gets a response. >But in general, we should try to make it as easy for package >maintainers as possible. Even if it is just by letting them know that >their package is used. So Squeak developers on Linux should try to use >the distro's packages, and if they are insufficient, give feedback. >Also, the source code should come with clear instructions on how to >build it, what dependencies there are etc. > One activity the board should support with re$ource$ is a routine fresh installation of squeak from key distros to see if they can pass a smoke test. Where problems are found more frequent tests should be scheduled until things are in a good state. In choosing key distros the 20-80 rule should apply. >Maybe having a mailing list specifically for maintainers would be >useful? With all the bug trackers out there we should have a mail list to monitor and collect bug updates from them. AFAIK tell Ubuntu tracks bugs separately from Debian on which it is based. >But even just tracking down what packages are already out >there, who is maintaining them etc. would be very valuable. And >monitoring the bug trackers, participating on the distro-maintainers >lists etc. Here is just a short list for squeak packages in various >distros: > >Debian: >http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=squeak-vm >Fedora: >https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/squeak-vm >Ubuntu: >https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/squeak-vm >OpenSuSE: >http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/devel:/languages:/smalltalk/openS… >Gentoo: >http://gentoo-portage.com/dev-lang/squeak >Arch: >http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=13021 > That was a useful collection. I have started by joining and chiming in on Ubuntu. Six are too many to focus on at present. >The good news is that once there are "good" packages in the major >Linux distributions, the smaller ones can follow suite much more >easily. The big issues of e.g. what build dependencies exist are >solved by then, and everyone can learn from each other. +1. Focus on one. Learn our lessons. Spread the knowledge. Part of the problem is that bugs once known are not being squashed in a timely fashion. The result is an infestation of problems. > >Squeakers have been pretty much ignorant of the larger open-source >community in the past. But I think there is a lot to be gained by >becoming a proper part of it. I have been working towards that goal >for a while now, in particular as part of the OLPC / Sugar development >efforts. Etoys is distributed as part of Sugar and depends on an up-to- >date Squeak-VM package, so we do have allies in the Sugar maintainers. >And everyone can help - as I wrote above, no deep VM knowledge is >necessary to monitor bug trackers or keep contact with the maintainers. > Theres another thing to say here. A vm gets distributed with etoys. It has the necessary plugins. It can be used instead of a squeak vm. There are some considerations that have to be addressed. These are the difference between the dialog box when the window close button is hit. If that were taken care of then AFAIK all you would need would be a shell script for launching squeak images using the etoys vm. There is one more issue that needs to be addressed. Our download website is overloaded with information. And while mac and window users have a path forward. Linux users are expected to make TOO many decisions Decisions based on information they lack. So that needs simplifing and sorting as well. So in sum: Fruitful efforts are to 1) make etoys and squeak more compatible with etoys vm package. 2) Simplify and clean up the linux download web page(s). As Bert said: >So there. Who else wants to get involved? <snip> Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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Re: Can you launch a squeak image on an etoys vm in Ubuntu?
by Jerome Peace 20 Apr '09

20 Apr '09

>Chris Kassopulo ckasso at sprynet.com >Tue Apr 14 02:00:01 UTC 2009 wrote: > >On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:31:17 -0700, Jerome Peace wrote: > >> Hi Bert >> >> Making a launcher with the command >> squeak -vm-sound-OSS >> then clicking on the launcher does not open any image at all. >> >> >> --- On Mon, 4/13/09, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> wrote: >> >>> From: Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] >>> Can you launch a squeak image on an etoys vm in Ubuntu? To: >>> peace_the_dreamer at yahoo.com, "The general-purpose Squeak developers >>> list" <squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org> Date: Monday, April 13, >>> 2009, 4:18 AM On 13.04.2009, at 00:14, Jerome Peace wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all and especially Bert, >>> > >>> > I am thinking about a work around to get sound going >>> on my >>> > development images. >>> > >>> > So far on Ubuntu I've found I can make launchers >>> with commands >>> > >>> > like >>> > >>> > squeak -image MySqueak >>> > >>> > and it will launch something other than the installed >>> 3.9 image. >>> >>> If you add the -vm-sound-OSS option to this command line, doesn't it >>> work? >>> >>> > for etoys the installed launcher has >>> > '/usr/bin/etoys' >>> > >>> > as a command which runs the etoys shell script. >>> > >>> > The shell script seems to recognize a -r alt.image >>> option >>> > >>> > but I have not been able to get it to work for me. >>> > >>> > I've tried it both inside and outside the single >>> quotes above. >>> > >>> > What am I missing? >>> >>> >>> Please attach your "etoys" script version. My version of the script >>> accepts a "--image" argument: >>> >> I am attaching the etoys.sh script from etoys.app its different than >> yours. >> >> I tried adding -image myImage.image to the etoys command. I am getting a >> can't move to directory/file not present error. >> >> Remember I am still in the "removing ignorance gently mode" of Ubuntu >> learning. Apparently I am not describing the file path correctly. I've >> tried several variations but haven't hit on the right one yet. >> >>> http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys.in >>> >>> In any case you should be able to just use the VM that is included in >>> the etoys app structure. >>> >>> - Bert - > > >I was told via bug report that Ubuntu doesn't support OSS at all. > >It is the opposite of what you are trying to do but on my Ubuntu box, >I removed the Ubuntu squeak related packages and installed the DEB >squeak-vm package. I can open squeak and etoys images with the >command: squeak /path_to_image/image_name.image and sound works. > Atually this sounds like it is on the path to a solution. Can we get a DEB package that we can offer from the website in such a way that when Ubuntu goes searching for a squeak to install it installs that vm? Bert: That that sound like the way to go? >Note to Jerome - you can type commands from a "terminal". Edit >previous commands by using uparrow. You get more feedback in a >terminal. Applications>>Accessories>>Terminal > Very good suggestion. I did find this very informative. And the workaround is: /usr/share/Etoys.app/Contents/Linux686/etoys -plugins /usr/share/Etoys.app/Contents/Linux686/ /home/MyHome/squeak.image That will start the squeak image with sound. The /usr/share/Etoys.app/Contents/Linux686/ path is where squeakland installed my etoys And /home/MyHome/squeak.image is where Ubuntu via squeak.org installed the default squeak image. And I did experience the problem you described below. I needed to use the world menu for quiting. Second workaround: squeak -plugins /usr/share/Etoys.app/Contents/Linux686/ /home/MyHome/squeak.image That launches the default image with the default squeak vm using the etoys plugins The image then has sound. Clicking the top right x on the window quits w/o asking for confirmation. So now the work around is known. Time to get back to solving the original problem. In another post perhaps. >The only problem encountered is that squeak does not respond to >closing of its host window. Etoys puts up a confirmation message box. >I remember seeing something in the archives about fixes to the vm in >how that is handled, but it also requires changes to the image. Are >those changes available? I have no idea on that. See work around two. > Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace >

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Cuis updated to #0187
by Juan Vuletich 20 Apr '09

20 Apr '09

Hi Folks, At http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/ you can find an new release of Cuis. Now Cuis handles the Latin-1 (ISO 8859-1) character set. It also includes Target Sighting by Jerome Peace (thanks Jerome!). Cheers, Juan Vuletich

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Re: Squeak soundless on Ubuntu
by Jerome Peace 20 Apr '09

20 Apr '09

--- On Sun, 4/19/09, Matej Kosik <kosik(a)fiit.stuba.sk> wrote: > From: Matej Kosik <kosik(a)fiit.stuba.sk> > Subject: Re: Squeak soundless on Ubuntu > To: peace_the_dreamer(a)yahoo.com > Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 4:04 PM > Jerome Peace wrote: > > > > Hi Matej, > > > > Thanks for your reply. > > Ok. I have uploaded an update to the repository where I > have an access: > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3616 > The page describes what to do if you want to hook to this > unofficial > repository. > cool > This is unofficial repository. Why it is unofficial is a > complicated > story. Please, let me know, if it works for you. > > This will not fix the Ubuntu version, though. > (that is a complicated story which unfolds now on > squeak-dev) > I've started reading. Now that everybody is talking to everybody we're starting to get somewhere. Thanks for your help and your service, --Jer

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Cuis on mobile devices
by David Zmick 20 Apr '09

20 Apr '09

I was thinking about potential useful applications for Cuis, and the thought that it would be "ideal" for mobile devices due to its low system requirements and small size. I just wanted to get that thought out her and see what you guys say about it :) -- David Zmick /dz0004455\ http://david-zmick.co.cc

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