Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
I can try to help.
Hilaire
stephane ducasse a écrit :
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Dear Good Souls,
I am a newcomer to the world of Squeak and Smalltalk, but already an experienced programmer in some other languages (including Java, which I think I'll never use again :) ) I would like to dive into developing useful applications in Squeak, but don't really know where to start, right now I am trying to familiarize myself with Morphic programming. So, if this collective of Good Souls is together, I'd be the first one to sign up to the new squeak-starters list. Thanks for the great idea - sounds just like what I've been looking for!
Attis
Hilaire Fernandes írta:
I can try to help.
Hilaire
stephane ducasse a écrit :
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Hello Attis,
NA> I am a newcomer to the world of Squeak and Smalltalk, but already an NA> experienced programmer in some other languages (including Java, which I NA> think I'll never use again :) ) I would like to dive into developing NA> useful applications in Squeak, but don't really know where to start, NA> right now I am trying to familiarize myself with Morphic programming. NA> So, if this collective of Good Souls is together, I'd be the first one NA> to sign up to the new squeak-starters list. Thanks for the great idea - NA> sounds just like what I've been looking for!
just go ahead, I guess I'm new enough to remember how I felt in the beginning. And my background is like yours. (Except for Java :-)
Actually there is a drawback in a newbie list. It splits up the community.
The people doing the work of developing Squeak don't stumble about what bugs a newbie anymore.
So mail me in private, wait for the new list or just ask here!
Cheers
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
Hi Herbert!
Shyness, I think that's quite a barrier to cross when you're new to a community. And when I see people speaking about Croquet and HOM (none of which I have managed to grasp the essence of), indeed I am a bit discouraged to ask questions like "how do I create a simple input window?"
Splitting the community wouldn't be much of a problem, I think, as the experienced squeakers can also take part in the new list, which would be for the benefit of both them and the newcomers.
As you said:
The people doing the work of developing Squeak don't stumble about what bugs a newbie anymore.
Exactly that's what I think. And I think that is why there aren't enough good tutorials out there.
And again, I think the splitting of the community would not be that much of a problem, if the new list would be successful at levelling up the newcomers to the point where they are able to take part in the main dev list's discussions.
Herbert König írta:
Hello Attis,
NA> I am a newcomer to the world of Squeak and Smalltalk, but already an NA> experienced programmer in some other languages (including Java, which I NA> think I'll never use again :) ) I would like to dive into developing NA> useful applications in Squeak, but don't really know where to start, NA> right now I am trying to familiarize myself with Morphic programming. NA> So, if this collective of Good Souls is together, I'd be the first one NA> to sign up to the new squeak-starters list. Thanks for the great idea - NA> sounds just like what I've been looking for!
just go ahead, I guess I'm new enough to remember how I felt in the beginning. And my background is like yours. (Except for Java :-)
Actually there is a drawback in a newbie list. It splits up the community.
The people doing the work of developing Squeak don't stumble about what bugs a newbie anymore.
So mail me in private, wait for the new list or just ask here!
Cheers
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
Hi Squeakers,
I've been trying to install some packages I think may be of help in learning Morphic (BreakOut, ProgrammingMorph, LifeMorph), of which only BreakOut installed correctly. I keep getting errors saying that there's no release for my Squeak version, which is 3.8. Most packages are for 3.6. Should I downgrade my Squeak? Or is there another way?
Thanks, Attis
Nagy Attila a écrit :
Hi Squeakers,
I've been trying to install some packages I think may be of help in learning Morphic (BreakOut, ProgrammingMorph, LifeMorph), of which only BreakOut installed correctly. I keep getting errors saying that there's no release for my Squeak version, which is 3.8. Most packages are for 3.6. Should I downgrade my Squeak? Or is there another way?
Even if you get this message, you can still ask to get the package installed. At least I know it works for ProgrammingMorph.
Thanks, Attis
What I get is:
"Error occured during install: MultiByteFileStream>>fileInObjectAndCodeForProject"
Debugger says "MultiByteFileStrem(Object) does not understand #fileInObjectAndCodeForProject"
Can this be due to the version mismatch?
Hilaire Fernandes írta:
Nagy Attila a écrit :
Hi Squeakers,
I've been trying to install some packages I think may be of help in learning Morphic (BreakOut, ProgrammingMorph, LifeMorph), of which only BreakOut installed correctly. I keep getting errors saying that there's no release for my Squeak version, which is 3.8. Most packages are for 3.6. Should I downgrade my Squeak? Or is there another way?
Even if you get this message, you can still ask to get the package installed. At least I know it works for ProgrammingMorph.
Thanks, Attis
Hi!
Nagy Attila attis@gizi.dote.hu wrote:
What I get is:
"Error occured during install: MultiByteFileStream>>fileInObjectAndCodeForProject"
Debugger says "MultiByteFileStrem(Object) does not understand #fileInObjectAndCodeForProject"
Can this be due to the version mismatch?
Mmm, that is when installing using SM right? I think it looks like an SM bug caused by changes in 3.8. Chech senders and implementors of #fileInObjectAndCodeForProject - the problem is most probably caused by the 3.8 related m17n changes (but we just have to live with that - I really, really like the work Yoshiki put into it :) ).
I can take a quick look tonight I think, gotta try to make SM Croquet-clean anyway, and other issues.
regards, Göran
Strange LifeMorph and ProgrammingMorph work fine for me with Squeak3.8-6665. Can it be related to some post-update on your 3.8 image? Try with a fresh 3.8 image.
Hilaire
Nagy Attila a écrit :
What I get is:
"Error occured during install: MultiByteFileStream>>fileInObjectAndCodeForProject"
Debugger says "MultiByteFileStrem(Object) does not understand #fileInObjectAndCodeForProject"
Can this be due to the version mismatch?
Hilaire Fernandes írta:
Nagy Attila a écrit :
Hi Squeakers,
I've been trying to install some packages I think may be of help in learning Morphic (BreakOut, ProgrammingMorph, LifeMorph), of which only BreakOut installed correctly. I keep getting errors saying that there's no release for my Squeak version, which is 3.8. Most packages are for 3.6. Should I downgrade my Squeak? Or is there another way?
Even if you get this message, you can still ask to get the package installed. At least I know it works for ProgrammingMorph.
Thanks, Attis
Hi!
Hilaire Fernandes hilaire@ext.cri74.org wrote:
Strange LifeMorph and ProgrammingMorph work fine for me with Squeak3.8-6665. Can it be related to some post-update on your 3.8 image? Try with a fresh 3.8 image.
Hilaire
My guess is that Nagy upgraded SM before the last round of fixes. So Nagy - first do "upgrade all installed packages" - which hopefully upgrades "SqueakMap2 Base" and perhaps "SqueakMap Loader" (not as critical), and then try again.
The packages you mention are in three different formats and the error you mentioned was probably for ProgrammingMorph (since that is packaged as a Project (.pr)). It might have been solved in my last update to SqueakMap2 Base - but again, just a guess.
regards, Göran
Oops I should update the map. Normally it worked well in 3.8 :)
Stef
On 22 avr. 06, at 11:34, Nagy Attila wrote:
Hi Squeakers,
I've been trying to install some packages I think may be of help in learning Morphic (BreakOut, ProgrammingMorph, LifeMorph), of which only BreakOut installed correctly. I keep getting errors saying that there's no release for my Squeak version, which is 3.8. Most packages are for 3.6. Should I downgrade my Squeak? Or is there another way?
Thanks, Attis
a "Tutor" list for Squeak (cool ! it feels like being at Squeak Academy at last :) )
"Reporting for duty sir" ... euh ... I mean count me in !
francois
On 22/04/06, Nagy Attila attis@gizi.dote.hu wrote:
Hi Herbert!
Shyness, I think that's quite a barrier to cross when you're new to a community. And when I see people speaking about Croquet and HOM (none of which I have managed to grasp the essence of), indeed I am a bit discouraged to ask questions like "how do I create a simple input window?"
Splitting the community wouldn't be much of a problem, I think, as the experienced squeakers can also take part in the new list, which would be for the benefit of both them and the newcomers.
As you said:
The people doing the work of developing Squeak don't stumble about what bugs a newbie anymore.
Exactly that's what I think. And I think that is why there aren't enough good tutorials out there.
And again, I think the splitting of the community would not be that much of a problem, if the new list would be successful at levelling up the newcomers to the point where they are able to take part in the main dev list's discussions.
Herbert König írta:
Hello Attis,
NA> I am a newcomer to the world of Squeak and Smalltalk, but already an NA> experienced programmer in some other languages (including Java,
which I
NA> think I'll never use again :) ) I would like to dive into developing NA> useful applications in Squeak, but don't really know where to start, NA> right now I am trying to familiarize myself with Morphic
programming.
NA> So, if this collective of Good Souls is together, I'd be the first
one
NA> to sign up to the new squeak-starters list. Thanks for the great
idea -
NA> sounds just like what I've been looking for!
just go ahead, I guess I'm new enough to remember how I felt in the beginning. And my background is like yours. (Except for Java :-)
Actually there is a drawback in a newbie list. It splits up the community.
The people doing the work of developing Squeak don't stumble about what bugs a newbie anymore.
So mail me in private, wait for the new list or just ask here!
Cheers
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
Hello Attis,
NA> Shyness, I think that's quite a barrier to cross when you're new to a NA> community. And when I see people speaking about Croquet and HOM (none of
no doubt and that's why we have to do something about it.
NA> discouraged to ask questions like "how do I create a simple input window?"
FillInTheBlankMorph request: 'How to create a simple input window' initialAnswer: 'Try FillInTheBlankMorph's class side messages' :-))
NA> Exactly that's what I think. And I think that is why there aren't enough NA> good tutorials out there.
There are many (won't judge them for good or bad). I had fun with "Why morpic is way cool" from the swiki http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak though outdated.
There you'll find something named "Practical wizardry". I admit I started with the bank account tutorial. Also try "Terse Guide to Squeak" and for some UI basics look at the pluggable morphs demo.
And then there's the free books collected by Stef.
There really is a wealth of information, also on which packages to install. Just a bit widespread. Dunno what you found yourself already, so I'll keep this short but keep asking!
One thing about morpic is you have to change your mindset about user interface programming but there also is Wx widgets which is closer to conventional Windows UI. Haven't tried yet.
Cheers
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
Herbert König wrote:
FillInTheBlankMorph request: 'How to create a simple input window' initialAnswer: 'Try FillInTheBlankMorph's class side messages' :-))
Wow, thanks! Exactly what I've been looking for.
One thing that would surely make it easier for everyone to start out would be a brief list of the most important class -- I mean the ones that help you through the steepest part of the learning curve. For example, since I've got to know the Transcript, I could do thingies in a Workspace that did output, but still had no way of reading user input. Now I do. Maybe having a list titled: "If you are new to Squeak, get acquainted to these classes:" would help.
On the name of the new list: I think "squeak-user" is not too informative. How about "squeak-wannabe-dev"?
Some wilder ideas: "squeak-good-souls" or "squeak-boot-camp". What do you think? Would either of them totally scare off newcomers?
And this goes out to you all: this is my first day on this mailing list, and you've been responsive and helpful to me all the time. You are indeed Good Souls, and one of the most friendly communities I've ever got to know. Keep it up!
Attis
Thanks attis
this is the kind of feedback that will kick us in the right direction.
For morphic I suggest to have a look at the BreakOut, it summarizes what I learned so far. Not a lot but you can find some examples of drag and drop and others part. Pay attention Morphic is not the coolest part of Squeak and I hope that Tweak will be ready soon.
Stef
On 22 avr. 06, at 09:49, Nagy Attila wrote:
Dear Good Souls,
I am a newcomer to the world of Squeak and Smalltalk, but already an experienced programmer in some other languages (including Java, which I think I'll never use again :) ) I would like to dive into developing useful applications in Squeak, but don't really know where to start, right now I am trying to familiarize myself with Morphic programming. So, if this collective of Good Souls is together, I'd be the first one to sign up to the new squeak- starters list. Thanks for the great idea - sounds just like what I've been looking for!
Attis
Hilaire Fernandes írta:
I can try to help. Hilaire stephane ducasse a écrit :
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Morphic is really cool. I suggest - if not already done - you install from SqueakMap (world menu, Open...->SqueakMap Package Loader) the "ProgrammingMorph" package. It is an interactive tutorial on some of the Morph programming.
When dealing with graphic I have found Morph to be quite fast, and it is globaly pretty cool to programming.
I am wondering what is the level of compatibility with Tweak programming? Tweak looks very nice, (but seems slower, why? because of AA?), I also hope to see it soon in stable version of Squeak.
Hilaire
Nagy Attila a écrit :
Dear Good Souls,
I am a newcomer to the world of Squeak and Smalltalk, but already an experienced programmer in some other languages (including Java, which I think I'll never use again :) ) I would like to dive into developing useful applications in Squeak, but don't really know where to start, right now I am trying to familiarize myself with Morphic programming. So, if this collective of Good Souls is together, I'd be the first one to sign up to the new squeak-starters list. Thanks for the great idea - sounds just like what I've been looking for!
Attis
Hilaire Fernandes írta:
I can try to help.
Hilaire
stephane ducasse a écrit :
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Nagy, I think you can take advantage of seaside framework (www.seaside.st) Regards, Sebastian PD: I allways critic, I could be wrog but I don't see too much future in morphic stuff. I think there are more sophisticated ideas being cooked.
-----Mensaje original----- De: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre de Nagy Attila Enviado el: Sábado, 22 de Abril de 2006 04:50 Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Asunto: Re: Looking for good souls
Dear Good Souls,
I am a newcomer to the world of Squeak and Smalltalk, but already an experienced programmer in some other languages (including Java, which I think I'll never use again :) ) I would like to dive into developing useful applications in Squeak, but don't really know where to start, right now I am trying to familiarize myself with Morphic programming. So, if this collective of Good Souls is together, I'd be the first one to sign up to the new squeak-starters list. Thanks for the great idea - sounds just like what I've been looking for!
Attis
Hilaire Fernandes írta:
I can try to help.
Hilaire
stephane ducasse a écrit :
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really
afraid to post,
experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a
success so we
should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me
answering
the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Hi Stef,
for german speaking people, there are a lot good souls on the german squeak foundation list (squeak-ev@lists.squeakfoundation.org). Many of them seems to be teacher or standing in context of school. The problem is how to connect, because of the language.
Regards
Hans
Am 22.04.2006 um 09:00 schrieb stephane ducasse:
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Hello Stef,
count me in but don't tack "good soul" on my back.
sd> I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters sd> because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to sd> post,
If it's not in french that is :-))
Cheers
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
On 22 avr. 06, at 09:46, Herbert König wrote:
Hello Stef,
count me in but don't tack "good soul" on my back.
Sure ok Black angels then :)
sd> I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters sd> because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to sd> post,
If it's not in french that is :-))
I told them that I will give them one extra point on their exam rate if this post email in english :)
Stef
Cheers
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
stephane ducasse a écrit :
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Hi, I will help alain
Stef
Il giorno sab, 22/04/2006 alle 09.00 +0200, stephane ducasse ha scritto:
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Hi Stef,
count me in. I don't really like the name (I'd prefer something like "squeak-users"), but I really like the idea.
Giovanni
Giovanni Corriga a écrit :
Il giorno sab, 22/04/2006 alle 09.00 +0200, stephane ducasse ha scritto:
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Hi Stef,
count me in. I don't really like the name (I'd prefer something like "squeak-users"), but I really like the idea.
+1 for the list name.
I'm willing to help. The main problem is a language problem, usually starters prefers to learn in their own speaking language.
-- oooo Dr. Serge Stinckwich OOOOOOOO Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>MAD OOESUGOO http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich oooooo Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] \ / ##
Hello all,
sd> I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters sd> because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to sd> post,
if it is like that, then squeak newbies is necessary but please don't forget (or rethink) the old arguments not to split squeak dev.
So maybe us who want to help at least should think about how to deal with this matter.
I personally think we should try to direct people here, as soon as they lost their shyness.
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
if it is like that, then squeak newbies is necessary but please don't forget (or rethink) the old arguments not to split squeak dev.
Sure but I think that if people can get less fear to ask then we win.
So maybe us who want to help at least should think about how to deal with this matter.
I personally think we should try to direct people here, as soon as they lost their shyness.
Indeed!
Stef
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
Stef,
I will help with what I can. Anyway I'll don't wait to be some kind of expert (by the way... wich nobody cant tell you when that happen) to give some help to users. I must say that I support this idea and I think is the rigt direction.
I must say too that the list's name "squeak-starters mailing-list" is not going in this direction and what is worse is subtlelty teaching everybody that is not. I say this because it will keep allways the subscribers thinking in theirselves as starters (of something that should be "going" someday). I would agree with a name like "squeak-users" so it subtlelty teach that (in fact) *is* going. I think it will help us to help.
Best regards,
Sebastian
-----Mensaje original----- De: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre de stephane ducasse Enviado el: Sábado, 22 de Abril de 2006 04:00 Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Asunto: Looking for good souls
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Ok so let's find a good name.
squeakers squeak-starter squeak-chat squeak-users (i'm afraid that people think about using = etoy but why not).
I like the chat idea of the meeting on irc (that I usually miss).
Stef
On 22 avr. 06, at 15:39, Sebastián Sastre wrote:
Stef,
I will help with what I can. Anyway I'll don't wait to be some kind of expert (by the way... wich nobody cant tell you when that happen) to give some help to users. I must say that I support this idea and I think is the rigt direction.
I must say too that the list's name "squeak-starters mailing-list" is not going in this direction and what is worse is subtlelty teaching everybody that is not. I say this because it will keep allways the subscribers thinking in theirselves as starters (of something that should be "going" someday). I would agree with a name like "squeak-users" so it subtlelty teach that (in fact) *is* going. I think it will help us to help.
Best regards,
Sebastian
-----Mensaje original----- De: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre de stephane ducasse Enviado el: Sábado, 22 de Abril de 2006 04:00 Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Asunto: Looking for good souls
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
On 22/04/06, stéphane ducasse ducasse@iam.unibe.ch wrote:
Ok so let's find a good name.
my 2 cents:
I personally think it should emphasize on the idea of *learning* (I think Squeak needs that: more programmers/teachers/students/people *learning* to program in Squeak and do useful things with it)
squeakers
It looks like a club to me not sure if it's about learning.
squeak-starter
No strong opinion
squeak-chat
Don't like it and doesn't look like *learning* but eventually 'gossiping', maybe in a squeak manner ;)
squeak-users (i'm afraid that people think about using = etoy but why
not).
I tend to like it but maybe 'Squeakers' are 'above' *using* (the users of) a software. To me Squeak seems more about 'building'/learning/programing than 'using'.
Personally I quiet like the "tutor" prefix (or any prefix which focus on *learning* but not on belonging to any kind of select club or 'sect'). As I mentioned before the list 'Python-Tutors' works well and have been very helpful for me and it begins with a statement which don't scare beginners : "Tutor -- Discussion for learning programming with Python".
Anyway I think the idea is that it should be clear for newcomers that they are welcome to ask even 'silly'/obvious/abc question in a list which is designed for that (meaning few threads about hacking the VM or Bug Reports)
Whatever the name of the list I think it's a great initiative, thanks :)
francois
francois schnell a écrit :
Personally I quiet like the "tutor" prefix (or any prefix which focus on *learning* but not on belonging to any kind of select club or 'sect'). As I mentioned before the list 'Python-Tutors' works well and have been very helpful for me and it begins with a statement which don't scare beginners : "Tutor -- Discussion for learning programming with Python".
I agree with François, "tutor" included in the mailing list name will be meaningfull for starters.
Hilaire
May be this is my english but for me
squeak-Tutor tells me that this is for teachers and not for learners :)
Stef On 22 avr. 06, at 18:10, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
francois schnell a écrit :
Personally I quiet like the "tutor" prefix (or any prefix which focus on *learning* but not on belonging to any kind of select club or 'sect'). As I mentioned before the list 'Python-Tutors' works well and have been very helpful for me and it begins with a statement which don't scare beginners : "Tutor -- Discussion for learning programming with Python".
I agree with François, "tutor" included in the mailing list name will be meaningfull for starters.
Hilaire
Damned ! you're probably right, I was on the wrong list ! that's probably why I've learnt Python so quick ;)
On 22/04/06, stéphane ducasse ducasse@iam.unibe.ch wrote:
May be this is my english but for me
squeak-Tutor tells me that this is for teachers and not for learners :)
Stef On 22 avr. 06, at 18:10, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
francois schnell a écrit :
Personally I quiet like the "tutor" prefix (or any prefix which focus on *learning* but not on belonging to any kind of select club or 'sect'). As I mentioned before the list 'Python-Tutors' works well and have been very helpful for me and it begins with a statement which don't scare beginners : "Tutor -- Discussion for learning programming with Python".
I agree with François, "tutor" included in the mailing list name will be meaningfull for starters.
Hilaire
In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the world with "beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners.
On Apr 22, 2006, at 9:15 AM, stéphane ducasse wrote:
May be this is my english but for me
squeak-Tutor tells me that this is for teachers and not for learners :)
Stef On 22 avr. 06, at 18:10, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
francois schnell a écrit :
Personally I quiet like the "tutor" prefix (or any prefix which focus on *learning* but not on belonging to any kind of select club or 'sect'). As I mentioned before the list 'Python-Tutors' works well and have been very helpful for me and it begins with a statement which don't scare beginners : "Tutor -- Discussion for learning programming with Python".
I agree with François, "tutor" included in the mailing list name will be meaningfull for starters.
Hilaire
I feel the need to make a couple of points here:-
a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask questions is a good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable and able to spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good place to look for answers to questions previously asked, for when a user feels a little more confident and wants to do some research themself. I'm not much of a fan of web-based forae because of the fragmentation they seem to engender BUT they are an excellent mechanism to provide an easily growable knowledge base of answers and advice. A swiki should be at least as good but they do seem to get horribly disorganised very quickly so perhaps using a web forum in the style of www.osxfaq.com's would be useful. Some threads are open to post questions and some are closed as a record of an answer that should stand alone.
more importantly we need *content*. I'd bet that almost every plausible newcomer question has been asked and answered but we have no sensible record. Searching a mailing list archive isn't really very helpful, especially if the subject was contentious and generated more heat than light. There are almost certainly hundreds of useful tutorial snippets - some much more than snippets - lying around the web. Surely an effective tactic would be to dig them all out, review them for accuracy, contemporary relevance, completeness and quality and then try to build a reasonably coherent body of guidance out of them?
more important still, we need *commitment* to do this and keep it up to date and answer questions and take the the answers and make them into newer or better tutorials and articles. We need people that are competent (or great!) teachers to actually decide to make the effort and to keep it up. We need people that are good at turning helpful answers into helpful pages on the web. We need reviewers to critique the tutorials and help make them better.
I can't provide that commitment since I'm pretty much maxed out by VMMaker and the general Foundation work. Who can volunteer to do this?
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim CChheecckk yyoouurr dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh..
We could give a try to get a web forum but someone should do it :) (we even developed a SmallBB in Seaside, but it seems that people were not into that). Indeed sorting the information is crucial and few people are pushing there. We are planning to write Squeak by Example as a free book, but this is secret :) and ideally this could be good that people contribute with a main editor. But for now this is still secret ;)
For now I feel that I could start with a squeak-wannabe mailing-list
I feel the need to make a couple of points here:-
a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask questions is a good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable and able to spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good place to look for answers to questions previously asked, for when a user feels a little more confident and wants to do some research themself. I'm not much of a fan of web-based forae because of the fragmentation they seem to engender BUT they are an excellent mechanism to provide an easily growable knowledge base of answers and advice. A swiki should be at least as good but they do seem to get horribly disorganised very quickly so perhaps using a web forum in the style of www.osxfaq.com's would be useful. Some threads are open to post questions and some are closed as a record of an answer that should stand alone.
more importantly we need *content*. I'd bet that almost every plausible newcomer question has been asked and answered but we have no sensible record. Searching a mailing list archive isn't really very helpful, especially if the subject was contentious and generated more heat than light. There are almost certainly hundreds of useful tutorial snippets - some much more than snippets - lying around the web. Surely an effective tactic would be to dig them all out, review them for accuracy, contemporary relevance, completeness and quality and then try to build a reasonably coherent body of guidance out of them?
more important still, we need *commitment* to do this and keep it up to date and answer questions and take the the answers and make them into newer or better tutorials and articles. We need people that are competent (or great!) teachers to actually decide to make the effort and to keep it up. We need people that are good at turning helpful answers into helpful pages on the web. We need reviewers to critique the tutorials and help make them better.
I can't provide that commitment since I'm pretty much maxed out by VMMaker and the general Foundation work. Who can volunteer to do this?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim CChheecckk yyoouurr dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh..
tim Rowledge a écrit :
I feel the need to make a couple of points here:-
a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask questions is a good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable and able to spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good place to look for answers to questions previously asked, for when a user feels a little more confident and wants to do some research themself. I'm not much of a fan of web-based forae because of the fragmentation they seem to engender BUT they are an excellent mechanism to provide an easily growable knowledge base of answers and advice. A swiki should be at least as good but they do seem to get horribly disorganised very quickly so perhaps using a web forum in the style of www.osxfaq.com's would be useful. Some threads are open to post questions and some are closed as a record of an answer that should stand alone.
What we usually do on the squeak-fr mailing list is to put valuable information posted in the list in our Wiki : http://community.ofset.org/wiki/Category:Squeak Our wiki is only 82 pages right now, but we try to avoid the mess, by continously categorize and refactor the pages.
-- oooo Dr. Serge Stinckwich OOOOOOOO Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>MAD OOESUGOO http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich oooooo Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] \ / ##
What we usually do on the squeak-fr mailing list is to put valuable information posted in the list in our Wiki : http:// community.ofset.org/wiki/Category:Squeak Our wiki is only 82 pages right now, but we try to avoid the mess, by continously categorize and refactor the pages.
It is really nice to see what can be done step by step. Superbe! Keep doing that. This is nice to see all the papers and chapters we wrote online too. Excellent! May be an international group could do the same!
Stef
Hey a Squeakipedia is not a bad idea. Anybody? Sebastian
-----Mensaje original----- De: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre de Serge Stinckwich Enviado el: Sábado, 22 de Abril de 2006 15:47 Para: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Asunto: Re: Looking for good souls
tim Rowledge a écrit :
I feel the need to make a couple of points here:-
a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask
questions is a
good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable
and able to
spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good place to look for answers to questions previously asked, for when a user feels a little more confident and wants to do some
research themself.
I'm not much of a fan of web-based forae because of the
fragmentation
they seem to engender BUT they are an excellent mechanism
to provide
an easily growable knowledge base of answers and advice. A swiki should be at least as good but they do seem to get horribly disorganised very quickly so perhaps using a web forum in
the style of
www.osxfaq.com's would be useful. Some threads are open to post questions and some are closed as a record of an answer that
should stand alone.
What we usually do on the squeak-fr mailing list is to put valuable information posted in the list in our Wiki : http://community.ofset.org/wiki/Category:Squeak Our wiki is only 82 pages right now, but we try to avoid the mess, by continously categorize and refactor the pages.
-- oooo Dr. Serge Stinckwich OOOOOOOO Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>MAD OOESUGOO http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich oooooo Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] \ / ##
"Sebastián" == Sebastián Sastre ssastre@seaswork.com.ar writes:
Sebastián> Hey a Squeakipedia is not a bad idea. Sebastián> Anybody?
How is that different from the current Wiki?
tim Rowledge wrote:
I feel the need to make a couple of points here:-
a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask questions is a good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable and able to spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good place to look for answers to questions previously asked, for when a user feels a little more confident and wants to do some research themself. I'm not much of a fan of web-based forae because of the fragmentation they seem to engender BUT they are an excellent mechanism to provide an easily growable knowledge base of answers and advice. A swiki should be at least as good but they do seem to get horribly disorganised very quickly so perhaps using a web forum in the style of www.osxfaq.com's would be useful. Some threads are open to post questions and some are closed as a record of an answer that should stand alone.
more importantly we need *content*. I'd bet that almost every plausible newcomer question has been asked and answered but we have no sensible record. Searching a mailing list archive isn't really very helpful, especially if the subject was contentious and generated more heat than light. There are almost certainly hundreds of useful tutorial snippets - some much more than snippets - lying around the web. Surely an effective tactic would be to dig them all out, review them for accuracy, contemporary relevance, completeness and quality and then try to build a reasonably coherent body of guidance out of them?
Let me offer some ideas.
We have started, what we call, an "Answer Board." It is nothing more than a moderated forum where people can ask specific questions. Those questions are answered by "experts." We understand that questions by beginners may not yield the answer the beginner has in mind -- the question may be vague, the beginner may not know how to ask the question, etc. So, a forum seemed to be a good way to "bat around" the question to ultimately arrive at a/the solution. (plus there are not 100 emails for a beginner to wade through.)
The "answers" are then reformulated and stored on a wiki for reference later. A beginner can always go to the wiki first to search. The Wiki is managed by people that are responsible for organizing and managing the question/answer - but they are not necessarily the "experts."
Let me reiterate Tim's urging that a Wiki *must* be maintained regularly. The squeak swiki is so outdated that it's very hard to use and I believe beginners will find it difficult and may, in the end, just give up. A well groomed, up-to-date Wiki is required to pull this off.
We are at the beginning of this exercise, but it proves to be worthwhile. We might consider this approach or a derivative.
Also, please count me in. I sure to learn a lot!
brad
On 22-Apr-06, at 12:43 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: [snip my vague and waffley bits]
Let me offer some ideas.
We have started, what we call, an "Answer Board." It is nothing more than a moderated forum where people can ask specific questions. Those questions are answered by "experts." We understand that questions by beginners may not yield the answer the beginner has in mind -- the question may be vague, the beginner may not know how to ask the question, etc. So, a forum seemed to be a good way to "bat around" the question to ultimately arrive at a/the solution. (plus there are not 100 emails for a beginner to wade through.)
The "answers" are then reformulated and stored on a wiki for reference later. A beginner can always go to the wiki first to search. The Wiki is managed by people that are responsible for organizing and managing the question/answer - but they are not necessarily the "experts."
Let me reiterate Tim's urging that a Wiki *must* be maintained regularly. The squeak swiki is so outdated that it's very hard to use and I believe beginners will find it difficult and may, in the end, just give up. A well groomed, up-to-date Wiki is required to pull this off.
We are at the beginning of this exercise, but it proves to be worthwhile. We might consider this approach or a derivative.
An excellent way of putting exactly what I was trying to say. Discussion followed by synthesis followed by an ariticle.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim "Both.." said Pooh, as the guillotine came down
An excellent way of putting exactly what I was trying to say. Discussion followed by synthesis followed by an ariticle.
Indeed nice let us see what will happen (experience showed to me that talking was easier), but people can prove me that I'm wrong (which I would love).
I think that we made progress in turning bugs in tests.
tim Rowledge wrote:
On 22-Apr-06, at 12:43 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: [snip my vague and waffley bits]
Let me offer some ideas.
We have started, what we call, an "Answer Board." It is nothing more than a moderated forum where people can ask specific questions. Those questions are answered by "experts." We understand that questions by beginners may not yield the answer the beginner has in mind -- the question may be vague, the beginner may not know how to ask the question, etc. So, a forum seemed to be a good way to "bat around" the question to ultimately arrive at a/the solution. (plus there are not 100 emails for a beginner to wade through.)
The "answers" are then reformulated and stored on a wiki for reference later. A beginner can always go to the wiki first to search. The Wiki is managed by people that are responsible for organizing and managing the question/answer - but they are not necessarily the "experts."
Let me reiterate Tim's urging that a Wiki *must* be maintained regularly. The squeak swiki is so outdated that it's very hard to use and I believe beginners will find it difficult and may, in the end, just give up. A well groomed, up-to-date Wiki is required to pull this off.
We are at the beginning of this exercise, but it proves to be worthwhile. We might consider this approach or a derivative.
An excellent way of putting exactly what I was trying to say. Discussion followed by synthesis followed by an ariticle.
well... looks like the forum/wiki idea is out of the contest. Hopefully, an email mailing list won't be too laborious to wade thru. We could still implement the Wiki idea after a question has been answered.
Hello Tim,
Saturday, April 22, 2006, 7:23:57 PM, you wrote:
tR> I feel the need to make a couple of points here:-
tR> a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask questions is a tR> good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable and able to tR> spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good
this for me is the most important part, as only people can tell you that a different question might be more helpful than the reply to the current question.
tR> more importantly we need *content*. I'd bet that almost every tR> plausible newcomer question has been asked and answered but we have tR> no sensible record. Searching a mailing list archive isn't really
Content is just too fixed and reflects a certain point of view.
Questions often are implicitly about not knowing what to ask and IMHO content is not well equipped to deal with this kind of question.
Searching content easily turns into frustration when the searching persons mind is locked and better organisation of the content is no help for this problem.
It just needs people.
tR> more important still, we need *commitment* to do this and keep it up
Yes but we start and then everyone can see how far the commitment goes and hopefully the added commitment of people willing to help will be sufficient to get some more people into this community.
tR> to date and answer questions and take the the answers and make them tR> into newer or better tutorials and articles. We need people that are tR> competent (or great!) teachers to actually decide to make the effort
an interested pupil can make up for a lot of incompetence in a teacher if the teacher is willing. This is how squeak dev works :-)) Note the smiley!
Cheers,
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
Squeak-help could work. An alternative to that would be
Squeak-support
I think is more like companies wich make a forum to support the community of users. In this case is non profit but the target prupouse of the list should be *supporting squeak users* so.. Squeak-Support came to my mind.
Anybody?
Sebastian
-----Mensaje original----- De: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre de Hans N Beck Enviado el: Sábado, 22 de Abril de 2006 15:50 Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Asunto: Re: Looking for good souls
Hi,
why not simply squeak-help ?
Regards
Hans
Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
sounds cool.
In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the
world with
"beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners.
I actually still think the "one-list-for-all" is best, because even if you don't understand half of what is discussed, you at least get to know that more advanced topics exist.
However, I can see how a newbie might be afraid of posting some basic question to squeak-dev. So to get new folks to participate, I'd make it explicit in the list name that it really is okay to ask even the dumbest questions. How about
"squeak-newbies"
Can't get much more inviting than that, can it?
- Bert -
Am 22.04.2006 um 20:49 schrieb Hans N Beck:
Hi,
why not simply squeak-help ?
Regards
Hans
Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
sounds cool.
In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the world with "beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners.
On 4/22/06, stéphane ducasse ducasse@iam.unibe.ch wrote:
"squeak-newbies"Can't get much more inviting than that, can it?
Personally, I would like to mimick patterns available in the open source community as much as possible. Which would be 'squeak-users'. Using Squeak as opposed to developing Squeak itself, which would then become the primary focus of the squeak-dev list.
Two reasons against squeak-newbies: it smells of "Xxx for Dummies", which is denigrating, and it may prevent advanced *users* of Squeak from subscribing because they clearly are not a part of the indicated target group.
Personally, I don't think there's a need for two lists. People with stupid questions will be flamed in either case (a stupid question does exist - it is when the poster clearly has not even done the most basic bit of research to solve the question by himself), and people with entry-level questions have never been flamed on squeak-dev, AFAICT.
Summarizing my position: - I am weakly not in favor of splitting squeak-dev; - If that has to happen, I am strongly against calling it squeak-newbies.
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:56:54 -0700, Cees De Groot cdegroot@gmail.com wrote:
Two reasons against squeak-newbies: it smells of "Xxx for Dummies", which is denigrating,
Title notwithstanding, the "...for Dummies" series was quite good (overall) and empathetic, rather than denigrating. The Unix one is classic.
If there were a "Squeak for Dummies", I'd buy it. If I could convince Wiley to publish one, I'd write it.<S>
Personally, I don't think there's a need for two lists. People with stupid questions will be flamed in either case (a stupid question does exist - it is when the poster clearly has not even done the most basic bit of research to solve the question by himself), and people with entry-level questions have never been flamed on squeak-dev, AFAICT.
I agree. But if it's true that people are reticent to post here, it wouldn't seem to be a terrible burden to start a new one.
Cees De Groot a écrit :
Summarizing my position:
- I am weakly not in favor of splitting squeak-dev;
As far as I can understand the Stephane proposal; the idea is more about attracting new users in a mailing list where this people could fell more confortable than splitting the list. When you start to learn Squeak and Smalltalk, the squeak-dev looks very impressive, even if the level of kindless is very very good in this list.
Hilaire
Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow? Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really?
May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try instead of staying with your certainty about life and facts.
My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to communicate with us. These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create such a list.
Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via squeakfondation as a normal and public list as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our cool community, or I create a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you decide. But I will do it (you know me and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails but at least I could be looking at this scar and be proud of it).
Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make several lists, for different languages.
As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow the community, the lists must split.
Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the others won't.
-Ralph
Stef
as a matter of facts....
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Manindra Sarkar" Manindra.Sarkar@adp.nl Date: 24 avril 2006 11:09:22 HAEC To: ducasse@iam.unibe.ch Subject: Re: Smalltalk books
Stephane,
Thanks for your tip. I did join the Squeak discussiongroup but it seems its a very big and noisy group. no doubt experts are among the members. i'm not practically able to read all the threads.
could u suggest me a group thats smaller also i would like to know if there is a SmallTalk group which releases a monthly or fortnightly newsletter?
Thanks for being forthcoming.
Regards, Mani
stéphane ducasse ducasse@iam.unibe.ch 11-4-2006 17:02 >>>
:) I like Smalltalk by example. but it is a bit dense.
You have the book of bernard Horan that his good. But what I suggest you is to register to a mailing-list for example the one of Squeak (www.squeak.org) and to ask questions. Really the people are nice and they will always help you.
Stef On 11 avr. 06, at 09:27, Manindra Sarkar wrote:
Hallo Stephane,
I found your site via Wikipedia, and happy to know a good amount of books are available digitally.
Could you suggest me a few books from this list, keeping in mind the order of difficulty? Im a SmallTalk newbie. Its been a week since im exposed to SmallTalk.
Hope to hear from you.
Thank you.
Regards, Manindra Sarkar
Hi!
I really agree with Stef and don't think a new mailing-list will do harm to anybody. It is absolutely true, that some advanced topics on squeak-dev may be very frustrating to squeak newbies and scare them away from writing to the conference. If there will be no posts to the new list, then it can be deleted anyway, so what is the problem? If someone thinks this behavior of Stefs is autocratic, then well, let the newbies decide. Anyone, who feels to be a newbie and is reading this mail, please write to this list and place a vote wheter you would like a squeak-newbie list or not. You can count me in of course ;-)
Elod
Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow? Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really?
May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try instead of staying with your certainty about life and facts.
My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to communicate with us. These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create such a list.
Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via squeakfondation as a normal and public list as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our cool community, or I create a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you decide. But I will do it (you know me and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails but at least I could be looking at this scar and be proud of it).
Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make several lists, for different languages.
As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow the community, the lists must split.
Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the others won't.
-Ralph
Stef
I also think a new mailing list for newcomers would be a good idea.
Cheers,
Alan
At 03:49 AM 4/24/2006, Elod Kironsky wrote:
Hi!
I really agree with Stef and don't think a new mailing-list will do harm to anybody. It is absolutely true, that some advanced topics on squeak-dev may be very frustrating to squeak newbies and scare them away from writing to the conference. If there will be no posts to the new list, then it can be deleted anyway, so what is the problem? If someone thinks this behavior of Stefs is autocratic, then well, let the newbies decide. Anyone, who feels to be a newbie and is reading this mail, please write to this list and place a vote wheter you would like a squeak-newbie list or not. You can count me in of course ;-)
Elod
Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow? Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really?
May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try instead of staying with your certainty about life and facts.
My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to communicate with us. These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create such a list.
Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via squeakfondation as a normal and public list as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our cool community, or I create a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you decide. But I will do it (you know me and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails but at least I could be looking at this scar and be proud of it).
Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make several lists, for different languages.
As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow the community, the lists must split.
Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the others won't.
-Ralph
Stef
May be to be really clear we could call it welcome-squeakers
Stef
On 24 avr. 06, at 13:03, Alan Kay wrote:
I also think a new mailing list for newcomers would be a good idea.
Cheers,
Alan
At 03:49 AM 4/24/2006, Elod Kironsky wrote:
Hi!
I really agree with Stef and don't think a new mailing-list will do harm to anybody. It is absolutely true, that some advanced topics on squeak-dev may be very frustrating to squeak newbies and scare them away from writing to the conference. If there will be no posts to the new list, then it can be deleted anyway, so what is the problem? If someone thinks this behavior of Stefs is autocratic, then well, let the newbies decide. Anyone, who feels to be a newbie and is reading this mail, please write to this list and place a vote wheter you would like a squeak-newbie list or not. You can count me in of course ;-)
Elod
Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow? Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really?
May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try instead of staying with your certainty about life and facts.
My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to communicate with us. These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create such a list.
Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via squeakfondation as a normal and public list as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our cool community, or I create a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you decide. But I will do it (you know me and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails but at least I could be looking at this scar and be proud of it).
Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make several lists, for different languages.
As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow the community, the lists must split.
Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the others won't.
-Ralph
Stef
On 2006 April 24 06:49, Elod Kironsky wrote:
Hi!
I really agree with Stef and don't think a new mailing-list will do harm to anybody. It is absolutely true, that some advanced topics on squeak-dev may be very frustrating to squeak newbies and scare them away from writing to the conference. If there will be no posts to the new list, then it can be deleted anyway, so what is the problem? If someone thinks this behavior of Stefs is autocratic, then well, let the newbies decide. Anyone, who feels to be a newbie and is reading this mail, please write to this list and place a vote wheter you would like a squeak-newbie list or not.
+1 - If such list is created I will subscribe to it. And if many on squeak-dev subscribe, I do not think it would cause a schism/split :)
Milan
You can count me in of course ;-)
Elod
Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow? Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really?
May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try instead of staying with your certainty about life and facts.
My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to communicate with us. These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create such a list.
Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via squeakfondation as a normal and public list as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our cool community, or I create a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you decide. But I will do it (you know me and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails but at least I could be looking at this scar and be proud of it).
Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make several lists, for different languages.
As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow the community, the lists must split.
Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the others won't.
-Ralph
Stef
Hi Stef and the rest!
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?st=E9phane_ducasse?= ducasse@iam.unibe.ch wrote:
Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow?
Ehm, I am sorry - I haven't followed the thread in detail, but is someone really arguing strongly against? Then I probably missed it. Some people including myself just tried to mention the fact that we don't want squeak-dev to turn into an elitist dev-list, but I don't think anyone *really* argued against a users-list (or whatever it is called)?
So get on with it and create the list, or tell Marcus to do it (I think he is list master) - you are on the board you know. :)
regards, Göran
There already is one http://groups.yahoo.com/group/squeaknewbie/ I signed up a while back when I saw it so I could help newbies if they had questions. I asked on the list if anyone was using the group and if anyone needed help. I got a response that said we get mostly spam and no questions. I'm still subscribed to it just incase someone stumbles on it and asks a question.
(I'm not taking sides just providing information)
Ron Teitelbaum
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of stéphane ducasse Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 4:34 AM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: Re: Looking for good souls
Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow? Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really?
May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try instead of staying with your certainty about life and facts.
My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to communicate with us. These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create such a list.
Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via squeakfondation as a normal and public list as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our cool community, or I create a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you decide. But I will do it (you know me and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails but at least I could be looking at this scar and be proud of it).
Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make several lists, for different languages.
As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow the community, the lists must split.
Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the others won't.
-Ralph
Stef
Hi Stef, you can count me in to show newbies around.
I have the same problems other *teachers* using Squeak have, and that is that my students are afraid of this list (for various reasons). In the past I even created local lists so that they could communicate with me, some of my assistents, and each other. This has nothing to do with splitting the list!
A stupid but effective way to guide people to this mailing list is: - having a clear footer that indicates that this is the new (or whatever name) mailing list, and that talks about the 'real' mailing list. No worries, as soon as they feel ready people will move. - the 'teachers' on the newbie list occasionaly have to reroute questions once they get beyod newbie questions. It is that plain and simple.
Note that adding such list will *grow* the community, not *split* it... How can it split when the people that will answer the newbies still belong to the squeak-dev as well ?! Do you think that because I am answering newbies I will no longer be interested in squeak-dev ?! This is crazy.
The 'do not split the mailing-lists' discussions in the past were said in a completely different context than for helping out newbies. We were talking about real variations of the language (with a real danger of splitting) or the community (the developers versus the sunday Squeakers). That is not the way to split this mailing list. But for helping out newbies, that is a different cause alltogether.
Subject: Re: Looking for good souls
Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow? Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really?
May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try instead of staying with your certainty about life and facts.
My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to communicate with us. These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create such a list.
Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via squeakfondation as a normal and public list as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our cool community, or I create a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you decide. But I will do it (you know me and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails but at least I could be looking at this scar and be proud of it).
Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make several lists, for different languages.
As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow the community, the lists must split.
Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the others won't.
-Ralph
Stef
Hi people!
Roel Wuyts Roel.Wuyts@ulb.ac.be wrote:
Hi Stef, you can count me in to show newbies around.
I have the same problems other *teachers* using Squeak have, and that is that my students are afraid of this list (for various reasons). In the past I even created local lists so that they could communicate with me, some of my assistents, and each other. This has nothing to do with splitting the list!
The above paragraph is interesting in that obviously this *is* a problem for especially many teachers. I wasn't aware of that, and I am pretty sure most of us weren't. But it seems logical, so once more: create the darn list. :) (still not seeing it on http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo)
A stupid but effective way to guide people to this mailing list is:
- having a clear footer that indicates that this is the new (or
whatever name) mailing list, and that talks about the 'real' mailing list. No worries, as soon as they feel ready people will move.
- the 'teachers' on the newbie list occasionaly have to reroute
questions once they get beyod newbie questions. It is that plain and simple.
Agree.
Note that adding such list will *grow* the community, not *split* it... How can it split when the people that will answer the newbies still belong to the squeak-dev as well ?! Do you think that because I am answering newbies I will no longer be interested in squeak-dev ?! This is crazy.
I also guess it will not in practice turn out harmful. Just note that one scenario (however unplausible) is that squeak-dev gets "weaker" in the sense that it misses out on all those Simple-And-Obvious-Things-That-We-Oldtimers-Don't-See-Anymore. Numerous frutiful discussions has started out with one of those "Sorry, but I just don't get it..."-questions from a complete beginner.
But again, we will just see how it works.
The 'do not split the mailing-lists' discussions in the past were said in a completely different context than for helping out newbies. We were talking about real variations of the language (with a real danger of splitting) or the community (the developers versus the sunday Squeakers). That is not the way to split this mailing list. But for helping out newbies, that is a different cause alltogether.
Probably.
regards, Göran
Am 25.04.2006 um 08:02 schrieb goran@krampe.se:
[...] once more: create the darn list. :) (still not seeing it on http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo)
Wouldn't the proper way of handling this the board gathering consensus and asking the list admins to create a new list?
(some board members already expressed their opinions in this thread - generally in favor)
- Bert -
Hi Bert and all!
Bert Freudenberg bert@impara.de wrote:
Am 25.04.2006 um 08:02 schrieb goran@krampe.se:
[...] once more: create the darn list. :) (still not seeing it on http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo)
Wouldn't the proper way of handling this the board gathering consensus and asking the list admins to create a new list?
Sure. :)
Or even more effectively: the person having the delegated responsibility of taking care of lists just takes the decision himself. Not sure if that role is set though, but I would guess Marcus. But that is of course your ballgame since I am not on the board :).
My advice (after having been on the board) is to use delegation extensively inside the board - and to publish those "roles" on squeak.org (the Team page there is great, having an equally distinct "board roles" page would be dandy IMHO). Again, just constructive advice. :)
Seeking board concensus was in my experience a very hard thing to do because people are so busy from time to time.
A good example here is the fact that Craig is Team boss today (after Ken) - one of the delegated roles that the current board "inherited" from the old board. But how many people are aware of this? IIRC Craig got editing capability of the Team page - please enter that info at the top. Or better - add the "board roles" page I blabbered about above. :)
regards, Göran
goran@krampe.se wrote: [...]
I also guess it will not in practice turn out harmful. Just note that one scenario (however unplausible) is that squeak-dev gets "weaker" in the sense that it misses out on all those Simple-And-Obvious-Things-That-We-Oldtimers-Don't-See-Anymore. Numerous frutiful discussions has started out with one of those "Sorry, but I just don't get it..."-questions from a complete beginner.
Quoting myself from http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-April/102982.htm...
Suppose a squeak-help list exists and any posts to it were copied to squeak-dev with [help] prefixed to the subject, and any replies from squeak-dev to [help] subjects were copied to squeak-help. The dev list sees the help traffic, can provide assistance, and gain "non-expert" perspective on the state of Squeak. The help seekers are spared the "intimidating" traffic. The [help] tags provide a filter handle for those that want one. Possible? Desirable? ...
Sean McGrath
Sean McGrath sean@manybits.net wrote:
Suppose a squeak-help list exists and any posts to it were copied to squeak-dev with [help] prefixed to the subject,
Ehm... that would sortof defeat the purpose of having a list that newbies *dare* posting to because of the intimidation factor in posting to the large and rather knowledgeable squeak-dev list, right?
regards, Göran
On 4/26/06, goran@krampe.se goran@krampe.se wrote:
Ehm... that would sortof defeat the purpose of having a list that newbies *dare* posting to because of the intimidation factor in posting to the large and rather knowledgeable squeak-dev list, right?
Not really. People usually decide to join a list after looking at the archive. THey would look at the "help" archives and see lots of questions, followed by good answers. They would say "this looks like a good place for me to ask my questions", and they would have no idea how many people are actually reading the list.
People can't tell how many other people are on a list, they can only judge the traffic. squeak-dev has enough traffic to intimidate most people. It also has a lot of topics that seem esoteric to a newcomer. Splicing "help" traffic into squeak-dev would not make either of these things happen to the "help" list.
My only concern is that splicing the lists together would require someone to do some work, and I don't want to wait around until it happens, because things like that can be low priority and take a long time to get done. I'd like to see the newbie list created ASAP and then for someone to splice them together "soon".
-Ralph Johnson
Hi!
"Ralph Johnson" johnson@cs.uiuc.edu wrote:
On 4/26/06, goran@krampe.se goran@krampe.se wrote:
Ehm... that would sortof defeat the purpose of having a list that newbies *dare* posting to because of the intimidation factor in posting to the large and rather knowledgeable squeak-dev list, right?
Not really. People usually decide to join a list after looking at the archive. THey would look at the "help" archives and see lots of questions, followed by good answers. They would say "this looks like a good place for me to ask my questions", and they would have no idea how many people are actually reading the list.
[SNIP]
Yes, you are probably right.
My only concern is that splicing the lists together would require someone to do some work, and I don't want to wait around until it happens, because things like that can be low priority and take a long time to get done. I'd like to see the newbie list created ASAP and then for someone to splice the= together "soon".
-Ralph Johnson
Agree. I assume we have exhausted this subject by now and that the board (through the box admins) just creates the list. ;)
regards, Göran
Ron,
There already is one http://groups.yahoo.com/group/squeaknewbie/
n> I signed up a while back when I saw it so I could help newbies if they had
questions. I asked on the list if anyone was using the group and if anyone needed help. I got a response that said we get mostly spam and no questions. I'm still subscribed to it just incase someone stumbles on it and asks a question.
There is a link to http://www.squeak.com from the top page... It doesn't look relevant. Do you know who maintains the page?
-- Yoshiki
Yoshiki,
It says its run by Ed Grant. Looks like edgrant@Yahoo.com. Ed has a web site which appears to be a forwarding link to some vacation site.
It's been a long time and so far there is no traffic, but if I could stumble across it so could others. I just checked and there have been a few new members since I signed up, but still no messages.
Ron
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Yoshiki Ohshima Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:45 PM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: Re: Looking for good souls
Ron,
There already is one http://groups.yahoo.com/group/squeaknewbie/
n> I signed up a while back when I saw it so I could help newbies if they had
questions. I asked on the list if anyone was using the group and if
anyone
needed help. I got a response that said we get mostly spam and no questions. I'm still subscribed to it just incase someone stumbles on
it
and asks a question.
There is a link to http://www.squeak.com from the top page... It doesn't look relevant. Do you know who maintains the page?
-- Yoshiki
I think the length and varying tone of this thread has proven than you need a more inviting source for beginners. :)
And dare I say it, but forums could be used also. Apple's discussion forums are quite successful simply because they don't use email. Beginners can search, peruse and respond then they feel like it without having their email fill up with, hmm, 46,000 emails over 3 years :)
Forums require much more participation by the helpers, as they are nowhere near as convenient to read serially, but the software I use can be set up to email moderators with every post.
Also the Apple board do not have any responses by Apple employees, rather it is wholly users helping users. They have reward systems such as ranks, post counts, etc. Some users eat this up. Thus you prime the pump with the "experts" and then then groom helpers over time.
Unmoderated forums can also become a huge mess of content. That is the downside of having content archived automatically. Compared to the current method of squeak-dev archives (not searchable online from what I can tell, just downloadable in chunks), though, the cost of too much content might be outweighed.
Plus you can moderate forums as well.
Toss in a "Lounge" an all of the off-topic stuff immediately has a home.
Anywho, had to throw that into the mix. Sometimes helping a different set of people requires different tools, so something to ponder on!
Steve
Ron,
It says its run by Ed Grant. Looks like edgrant@Yahoo.com. Ed has a web site which appears to be a forwarding link to some vacation site.
It's been a long time and so far there is no traffic, but if I could stumble across it so could others. I just checked and there have been a few new members since I signed up, but still no messages.
Thank you so much for doing that. But now, we have another mailing list. May be directing people to the new one from the yahoo one, or possibly close it might make sense. I'll ask Ed about it.
Thank you again...
-- Yoshiki
If you create it, please do add a gmane interface as Craig suggested - http://squeak.joyful.com/HowToAddListsToGmane .
It should also be added to Nabble (http://www.nabble.com). The interface there is a lot nice than GMane's IMO.
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Simon Michael Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 11:05 AM To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Looking for good souls
If you create it, please do add a gmane interface as Craig suggested - http://squeak.joyful.com/HowToAddListsToGmane .
Isn't this statement going a teenie weenie bit too far? You seem indeed to be saying that you need a "friendlier" list because this is a "conservative, private, dandy club, not inviting anybody to learn and grow and sitting on its knowledge". Harsh words even by my standards.
BTW, even though Ralph is obviously right on a global scale, the question needs to be asked whether *now* is the time to add an extra mailing list or not. Given the debate we've seen I'm more on the sceptical side - it doesn't seem like there is an obvious need but sometimes these things take time to develop so we shall see.
The one thing I believe will be critical however, is that the mailing list is easily recognizable. Thus far, most people refer to this mailing list simply as THE squeak mailing list which (given historical context) is correct - but if you want to avoid newbies to feel like second-class citizens we should have simple and clear names. And I'll withstand the temptation to offer my $.02 for such a name here ;-)
Cheers, - Andreas
stéphane ducasse wrote:
Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow? Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really?
May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try instead of staying with your certainty about life and facts.
My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to communicate with us. These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create such a list.
Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via squeakfondation as a normal and public list as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our cool community, or I create a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you decide. But I will do it (you know me and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails but at least I could be looking at this scar and be proud of it).
Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make several lists, for different languages.
As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow the community, the lists must split.
Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the others won't.
-Ralph
Stef
On Apr 22, 2006, at 9:41 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
I actually still think the "one-list-for-all" is best, because even if you don't understand half of what is discussed, you at least get to know that more advanced topics exist.
However, I can see how a newbie might be afraid of posting some basic question to squeak-dev. So to get new folks to participate, I'd make it explicit in the list name that it really is okay to ask even the dumbest questions. How about
"squeak-newbies"
Can't get much more inviting than that, can it?
I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering basic smalltalk questions. - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland? I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
Cheers,
Markus
- Bert -
Am 22.04.2006 um 20:49 schrieb Hans N Beck:
Hi,
why not simply squeak-help ?
Regards
Hans
Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
sounds cool.
In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the world with "beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners.
I think that Squeakland mailing-list will not work.
I'm waiting to get the list created and we will see if this is working.
Stef
I actually still think the "one-list-for-all" is best, because even if you don't understand half of what is discussed, you at least get to know that more advanced topics exist.
However, I can see how a newbie might be afraid of posting some basic question to squeak-dev. So to get new folks to participate, I'd make it explicit in the list name that it really is okay to ask even the dumbest questions. How about
"squeak-newbies"
Can't get much more inviting than that, can it?
I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering basic smalltalk questions.
- Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
Cheers,
Markus
- Bert -
Am 22.04.2006 um 20:49 schrieb Hans N Beck:
Hi,
why not simply squeak-help ?
Regards
Hans
Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
sounds cool.
In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the world with "beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners.
On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli gaelli@emergent.de wrote:
I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering basic smalltalk questions.
- Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same thing, not the same targeted audience).
Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, asking for help, etc.
For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated research/hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/teachers/people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly research ones)
If Squeak-Smalltalk doesn't succeed in that it will *always* stay a platform for researchers/hackers. This is not bad obviously, it's just a question of choice.
francois
Cheers,
Markus
On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote:
On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli gaelli@emergent.de wrote:
I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering basic smalltalk questions.
- Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same thing, not the same targeted audience).
Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, asking for help, etc.
For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated research/ hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/teachers/ people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly research ones)
Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these educational but still technical people in the french list - as there are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott, Bert, Yoshiki and others in squeakland.
So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe - as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course.
I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and croquet. Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list, and isn't that what squeakland is all about?
Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on it either... Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find a bit strange ;-)
Cheers,
Markus
markus
I just thought that lot of people in squeakland are not really programmers at the low level, but more into using etoy. May be I'm wrong?
Stef
On 23 avr. 06, at 11:59, Markus Gaelli wrote:
On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote:
On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli gaelli@emergent.de wrote:
I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering basic smalltalk questions.
- Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same thing, not the same targeted audience).
Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, asking for help, etc.
For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated research/hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/ teachers/people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly research ones)
Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these educational but still technical people in the french list - as there are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott, Bert, Yoshiki and others in squeakland.
So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe - as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course.
I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and croquet. Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list, and isn't that what squeakland is all about?
Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on it either... Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find a bit strange ;-)
Cheers,
Markus
Hi Stef,
The squeakland website and image (both the image and the image) currently does not fit for tool building smalltalk learners. This is correct. Likewise the geeky and technical image of squeak-dev does not fit for education of object oriented programmers nubs.
Your tutorial in squeak 3.8 image helps here. Why should this not be part of the squeakland-image? Why shouldn't we have a button in the squeakland image which beams the newbie over the fence into a good smalltalk teaching environment?
What I like about the french list, is that this distinction is not so serious.
I'd like to have one english speaking list about the use of Squeak for and in education, and this would include both etoys and smalltalk. And I suggested to use squeakland for this, as there are already lots of good souls there, who do focus on education. Actually I think that open minded future software engineers can learn a lot from the etoys paradigm.
I also made the experience that people learn Smalltalk much faster, when they have been introduced to EToys first.
Finally I have the feeling that the lack of technical questions/ discussions about Smalltalk on squeakland hindered the development of EToys.
Cheers,
Markus
On Apr 23, 2006, at 1:24 PM, stéphane ducasse wrote:
markus
I just thought that lot of people in squeakland are not really programmers at the low level, but more into using etoy. May be I'm wrong?
Stef
On 23 avr. 06, at 11:59, Markus Gaelli wrote:
On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote:
On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli gaelli@emergent.de wrote:
I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering basic smalltalk questions.
- Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same thing, not the same targeted audience).
Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, asking for help, etc.
For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated research/hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/ teachers/people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly research ones)
Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these educational but still technical people in the french list - as there are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott, Bert, Yoshiki and others in squeakland.
So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe - as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course.
I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and croquet. Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list, and isn't that what squeakland is all about?
Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on it either... Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find a bit strange ;-)
Cheers,
Markus
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Hi all,
Markus Gaelli wrote:
Hi Stef,
The squeakland website and image (both the image and the image) currently does not fit for tool building smalltalk learners. This is correct. Likewise the geeky and technical image of squeak-dev does not fit for education of object oriented programmers nubs.
Your tutorial in squeak 3.8 image helps here. Why should this not be part of the squeakland-image? Why shouldn't we have a button in the squeakland image which beams the newbie over the fence into a good smalltalk teaching environment?
I even didn't know the squeak-dev image, but this last question seems a good one. Most of the time Squeak has been oriented toward childs, and I mean, really young childs, so what about "a system for children of all ages"?. I'm trying to use Squeak with a pretty eclectic groups of students in university (the only thing they share is that all them are pregrade students) and I come to squeak after having previous experience with Scheme and Python (that were previous sucessfull experience with students with a more common background and interest in "Computer Science", which I prefer to call "Informatics"[1]). It was a pretty good thing to choose Squeak this time, I'm proud of that choice and I will stick to it in the future. This construction was not an easy one and is still being made. We need more content that can be used for the students profile I talked before, here in LatinAmerica, and we're trying to produce a selection of lectures and in the end some kind of original material.
[1] http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/informatics.shtml
Now we can even make a little exploration of E-toys, but my feeling is that the time is comming when we need to start learnings and asking questions about Smalltalk.
What I like about the french list, is that this distinction is not so serious.
I'd like to have one english speaking list about the use of Squeak for and in education, and this would include both etoys and smalltalk. And I suggested to use squeakland for this, as there are already lots of good souls there, who do focus on education. Actually I think that open minded future software engineers can learn a lot from the etoys paradigm.
I'm agree with this also. I think that both themes are not disjoint and is a bridge for making "a system for children of all ages". Sorry if this mail is taking too long, but I will try to talk more about bridges and my previous experience teaching "Introduction to Informatics" (anyway I read all of you a lot, so its time for revenge :-P )
In that course we try to make a first exploration of informatics from the point of view of a "first in width" instead of the classical one (at least here), the "first in depth" (you know, the one where the students firs encounter with informatics is procedural structured programming, in C/C++, then Object Oriented Programming, In Java/.Net, then Data Base, etc... and in the end of their career studies they come with some kind of revelation and they join the pieces and say "Ohhh this is informatics"). In our first in width approach we try to know something about story, social context, subfields in a panoramic way and the course then goes to programming (because they need to being motivated and prepared about the "now in depth" approach of the following courses). In my previous semesters I tried to follow the path proposed by the people of Teach Scheme Project, about:
1) Keep away from Machine Details (C/C++ is not enougth far from a beginer point of view in my student and teacher experience) and
2) Focus on correctness instead of eficiency (focus on program desing).
and they key was the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Sintactically). Was really nice to see all the class having their first program working and understood. And the teach scheme project has a emphasis on learned oriented programming environments, so was nice to see programming seeing as a "liberal art" instead of something teached for programers by programers (in the same way that mathematics is not only for mathematicians). To make a long story short, then I probed python because it maintain the same K.I.S.S. principle and will be more like the program languages they will find or have found in the rest of ther studies. That was nice if all the people were students of informatics but...
This semester I have and eclectic group (the course was made an open one), people from biology, informatics, engeenering, nutrition, some of them are just starting their studies, some of them were finishing them... and scheme and python were not the solution for that group. The programming environment was "deprived"... was something like a "wordpad with sintactical hightlighting"... their motivations where different, so I need to appeal to a shared cultural background this time, and computers where nice multimedia, connected, feature rich machine for them. In that context Squek/Smalltalk was the answer. It provides a bridge from computers in the world to computers in the classroom, and different people were more motivated.
Now we need to start to make bridges from computers in the classrom to programming as a part of a scientific discipline and even part of life, and young children materials are not filling the gap for my students. We need to make a bridge between our classroom and your community... that's the reason why I'm here and I hope you help me.
I also made the experience that people learn Smalltalk much faster, when they have been introduced to EToys first.
Thanks for the advice. I will try to follow it, this week.
Finally I have the feeling that the lack of technical questions/ discussions about Smalltalk on squeakland hindered the development of EToys.
I feel that few bridges between communities are making education a mission impossible... but I have made a log mail already...
Cheers,
Offray
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas puso en su mail :
We need more content that can be used for the students profile I talked before, here in LatinAmerica, and we're trying to produce a selection of lectures and in the end some kind of original material. This semester I have and eclectic group
Estimado Profesor: Aqui en la ciudad de Rosario, Argentina, tenemos un pequeño grupo para estudiar Squeak. Aunque es modesto, le ofezco los siguientes links en castellano
http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/squeakRos/ SqueakRos / Grupo http://wiki.gnulinex.org/squeakros SqueakRos swiki en España http://ar.geocities.com/edgardec2001/Welcome.html SqueakRos / Tutoriales http://swiki.agro.uba.ar/small_land/ Swiki de la UBA
Tambien estoy disponible para los estudiantes que necesiten ayuda remota via IRC (lo hemos usado en castellano) y para lo que necesite.
Atentamente.
Edgar
__________________________________________________ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! ¡Abrí tu cuenta ya! - http://correo.yahoo.com.ar
Hi offray
Excellent, I can help you. - videos: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/Videos/ - DVD: http://www.squeak.org/Download/SqueakDVD/ - free Smalltalk books: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/FreeBooks.html - my lectures http://prog2.vub.ac.be/smalltalk/news.php (we will be launching a new program soon so that all smalltalk teachers can share their lectures) You can find old slides in ppt at: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/ Web/ArchivedLectures/
You have also http://smallwiki.unibe.ch/botsinc/
Stef
On 24 avr. 06, at 15:16, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Hi all,
Markus Gaelli wrote:
Hi Stef,
The squeakland website and image (both the image and the image) currently does not fit for tool building smalltalk learners. This is correct. Likewise the geeky and technical image of squeak-dev does not fit for education of object oriented programmers nubs.
Your tutorial in squeak 3.8 image helps here. Why should this not be part of the squeakland-image? Why shouldn't we have a button in the squeakland image which beams the newbie over the fence into a good smalltalk teaching environment?
I even didn't know the squeak-dev image, but this last question seems a good one. Most of the time Squeak has been oriented toward childs, and I mean, really young childs, so what about "a system for children of all ages"?. I'm trying to use Squeak with a pretty eclectic groups of students in university (the only thing they share is that all them are pregrade students) and I come to squeak after having previous experience with Scheme and Python (that were previous sucessfull experience with students with a more common background and interest in "Computer Science", which I prefer to call "Informatics"[1]). It was a pretty good thing to choose Squeak this time, I'm proud of that choice and I will stick to it in the future. This construction was not an easy one and is still being made. We need more content that can be used for the students profile I talked before, here in LatinAmerica, and we're trying to produce a selection of lectures and in the end some kind of original material.
[1] http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/informatics.shtml
Now we can even make a little exploration of E-toys, but my feeling is that the time is comming when we need to start learnings and asking questions about Smalltalk.
What I like about the french list, is that this distinction is not so serious.
I'd like to have one english speaking list about the use of Squeak for and in education, and this would include both etoys and smalltalk. And I suggested to use squeakland for this, as there are already lots of good souls there, who do focus on education. Actually I think that open minded future software engineers can learn a lot from the etoys paradigm.
I'm agree with this also. I think that both themes are not disjoint and is a bridge for making "a system for children of all ages". Sorry if this mail is taking too long, but I will try to talk more about bridges and my previous experience teaching "Introduction to Informatics" (anyway I read all of you a lot, so its time for revenge :-P )
In that course we try to make a first exploration of informatics from the point of view of a "first in width" instead of the classical one (at least here), the "first in depth" (you know, the one where the students firs encounter with informatics is procedural structured programming, in C/C++, then Object Oriented Programming, In Java/.Net, then Data Base, etc... and in the end of their career studies they come with some kind of revelation and they join the pieces and say "Ohhh this is informatics"). In our first in width approach we try to know something about story, social context, subfields in a panoramic way and the course then goes to programming (because they need to being motivated and prepared about the "now in depth" approach of the following courses). In my previous semesters I tried to follow the path proposed by the people of Teach Scheme Project, about:
- Keep away from Machine Details (C/C++ is not enougth far from a
beginer point of view in my student and teacher experience) and
- Focus on correctness instead of eficiency (focus on program
desing).
and they key was the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Sintactically). Was really nice to see all the class having their first program working and understood. And the teach scheme project has a emphasis on learned oriented programming environments, so was nice to see programming seeing as a "liberal art" instead of something teached for programers by programers (in the same way that mathematics is not only for mathematicians). To make a long story short, then I probed python because it maintain the same K.I.S.S. principle and will be more like the program languages they will find or have found in the rest of ther studies. That was nice if all the people were students of informatics but...
This semester I have and eclectic group (the course was made an open one), people from biology, informatics, engeenering, nutrition, some of them are just starting their studies, some of them were finishing them... and scheme and python were not the solution for that group. The programming environment was "deprived"... was something like a "wordpad with sintactical hightlighting"... their motivations where different, so I need to appeal to a shared cultural background this time, and computers where nice multimedia, connected, feature rich machine for them. In that context Squek/Smalltalk was the answer. It provides a bridge from computers in the world to computers in the classroom, and different people were more motivated.
Now we need to start to make bridges from computers in the classrom to programming as a part of a scientific discipline and even part of life, and young children materials are not filling the gap for my students. We need to make a bridge between our classroom and your community... that's the reason why I'm here and I hope you help me.
I also made the experience that people learn Smalltalk much faster, when they have been introduced to EToys first.
Thanks for the advice. I will try to follow it, this week.
Finally I have the feeling that the lack of technical questions/ discussions about Smalltalk on squeakland hindered the development of EToys.
I feel that few bridges between communities are making education a mission impossible... but I have made a log mail already...
Cheers,
Offray
-- El Directorio ------------------------------ .:| Tecnología |:. .:| Comunidad | Libertad |:. | Colombia |/
www.el-directorio.org
Hi Markus --
I don't think this would be a great idea. Squeakland is explicitly for teachers and parents (and they are very shy as it is). I think it would be very confusing to convolve discussions about Etoys with discussions about Squeak (especially since most of these users think Etoys is Squeak).
Let's set up a separate list please.
Cheers,
Alan
-----------
At 02:59 AM 4/23/2006, Markus Gaelli wrote:
On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote:
On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli gaelli@emergent.de wrote:
I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering basic smalltalk questions.
- Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same thing, not the same targeted audience).
Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, asking for help, etc.
For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated research/ hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/teachers/ people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly research ones)
Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these educational but still technical people in the french list - as there are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott, Bert, Yoshiki and others in squeakland.
So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe - as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course.
I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and croquet. Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list, and isn't that what squeakland is all about?
Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on it either... Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find a bit strange ;-)
Cheers,
Markus _______________________________________________ Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Hi!
Hans N Beck hnbeck@t-online.de wrote:
Hi,
why not simply squeak-help ?
A few views:
- squeak-help sounds nice and evidently a helpline. - we already have multiple lists but I too want such a list to "push" newbies back over to squeak-dev. I don't want us to split. :) - I gladly answer questions but can't take the time to track yet another list. So feel free to bump them on me in private when you think it has to do with SqueakMap and I will answer.
regards, Göran
Goran for the list 3.9, squeak-dev, packages, and others I would prefer to kill some of the useless or not active mailing- list and push a low entry one. I have rules that just push them all in the same folder (but ordered) this way I use 3.9 to communicate with others on what we are doing and but I get a general overview so for me I'm not split over multiple mailing-list
On 22 avr. 06, at 22:32, goran@krampe.se wrote:
Hi!
Hans N Beck hnbeck@t-online.de wrote:
Hi,
why not simply squeak-help ?
A few views:
- squeak-help sounds nice and evidently a helpline.
- we already have multiple lists but I too want such a list to "push"
newbies back over to squeak-dev. I don't want us to split. :)
- I gladly answer questions but can't take the time to track yet
another list. So feel free to bump them on me in private when you think it has to do with SqueakMap and I will answer.
regards, Göran
Suppose a squeak-help list exists and any posts to it were copied to squeak-dev with [help] prefixed to the subject, and any replies from squeak-dev to [help] subjects were copied to squeak-help. The dev list sees the help traffic, can provide assistance, and gain "non-expert" perspective on the state of Squeak. The help seekers are spared the "intimidating" traffic. The [help] tags provide a filter handle for those that want one. Possible? Desirable? ...
Sean McGrath
Hello Sean,
SM> Suppose a squeak-help list exists and any posts to it SM> were copied to squeak-dev with [help] prefixed to the subject, SM> and any replies from squeak-dev to [help] subjects were copied to
[newbie] or [beginner] like the list name i suggest.
SM> squeak-help. The dev list sees the help traffic, can provide assistance, SM> and gain "non-expert" perspective on the state of Squeak. SM> The help seekers are spared the "intimidating" traffic. SM> The [help] tags provide a filter handle for those that want one. SM> Possible? Desirable? ...
I think this is a really great idea!
Take away the tags when relaying back to the beginner list. I hope someone with the knowledge will say that is easily done.
Cheers,
Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@gmx.net
I think Squeak-Tutors implies discussion among the tutors, not between tutors and learners.
How about, simply, "learn-squeak"?
----- Original Message ---- From: Hilaire Fernandes hilaire@ext.cri74.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:05:17 AM Subject: Re: Looking for good souls
francois schnell a écrit :
Personally I quiet like the "tutor" prefix (or any prefix which focus on *learning* but not on belonging to any kind of select club or 'sect'). As I mentioned before the list 'Python-Tutors' works well and have been very helpful for me and it begins with a statement which don't scare beginners : "Tutor -- Discussion for learning programming with Python".
I agree with François, "tutor" included in the mailing list name will be meaningfull for starters.
Hilaire
Sorry I'm late. May I add the WYSIWYG perspective: if what you type is what you get, then
- starters gets you appetizers - chat gets you gossip, rumors (only IRC gets you fun :) - users gets you to the most frustated group of people ever created by applied information technology (the so called MFGPECAIT's ;) - help promises help (suggested by Hans, O.K. for me) - answers gets you answers, my 2 pennies
/Klaus
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:50:47 +0200, stéphane ducasse ducasse@iam.unibe.ch wrote:
Ok so let's find a good name.
squeakers squeak-starter squeak-chat squeak-users (i'm afraid that people think about using = etoy but why not).
I like the chat idea of the meeting on irc (that I usually miss).
Stef
On 22 avr. 06, at 15:39, Sebastián Sastre wrote:
Stef,
I will help with what I can. Anyway I'll don't wait to be some kind of expert (by the way... wich nobody cant tell you when that happen) to give some help to users. I must say that I support this idea and I think is the rigt direction.
I must say too that the list's name "squeak-starters mailing-list" is not going in this direction and what is worse is subtlelty teaching everybody that is not. I say this because it will keep allways the subscribers thinking in theirselves as starters (of something that should be "going" someday). I would agree with a name like "squeak-users" so it subtlelty teach that (in fact) *is* going. I think it will help us to help.
Best regards,
Sebastian
-----Mensaje original----- De: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre de stephane ducasse Enviado el: Sábado, 22 de Abril de 2006 04:00 Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Asunto: Looking for good souls
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Hello,
I guess trying a new list for a bit different audience is ok. I'll subscribe and try to help there. I would imagine that the mailing list may not get too much traffic, as Squeak-announce was somewhat similar in a sense. (But we'll see.)
I, too, think one list for all is ideal (I might agree though that some people can be intimidating on this list^^;).
Don't forget about the Pygmalion Effect. People tend to act how they are supposed to act. If we have two lists, and one is labelled as the "friendlier" list, that could be interpreted as a message saying that another list is "unfriendly", and it is ok to act unfriendlier there. This is not what we want.
I don't see it a problem that the same questions coming up to the list over and over again. Any question is the same, and human being is the best filter and the best mentor. If someone wants to ask a question, he should ask it, instead of looking for the right keyword to search the wiki database.
Apart from the intimidation, the barrier to any mailing list is the burden to go through the registration process... Is it reasonable to set up the mailing list which is moderated by bunch of people over different timezone, and accept posts from non-members?
-- Yoshiki
Am 23.04.2006 um 10:43 schrieb Yoshiki Ohshima:
Hello,
I guess trying a new list for a bit different audience is ok. I'll subscribe and try to help there. I would imagine that the mailing list may not get too much traffic, as Squeak-announce was somewhat similar in a sense. (But we'll see.)
I, too, think one list for all is ideal (I might agree though that some people can be intimidating on this list^^;).
Don't forget about the Pygmalion Effect. People tend to act how they are supposed to act. If we have two lists, and one is labelled as the "friendlier" list, that could be interpreted as a message saying that another list is "unfriendly", and it is ok to act unfriendlier there. This is not what we want.
Indeed - that's partly why I suggested "newbies" as list name.
I don't see it a problem that the same questions coming up to the list over and over again. Any question is the same, and human being is the best filter and the best mentor. If someone wants to ask a question, he should ask it, instead of looking for the right keyword to search the wiki database.
Apart from the intimidation, the barrier to any mailing list is the burden to go through the registration process... Is it reasonable to set up the mailing list which is moderated by bunch of people over different timezone, and accept posts from non-members?
Good idea. But how do the non-subscribers get their answers? We could try to CC the non-subscribed thread participants. Or auto-subscribe any poster?
Also very nice for newbies would be a mailing list <-> web forum gateway. I like the one at Nabble (http://www.nabble.com/Squeak- f14152.html), but it also requires creating an account ...
- Bert -
I would like to close this thread. I will try and set up a list
squeak-newbies and if it does not work, it does not work.
If you do not want to be in the other list, do not subscribe: simple! Sometimes simple stuff looks complex, but this is easier to talk than to try. Now I encourage everybody to have a look at our wiki and help because this is really not an cosy place.
Stef
Hello,
I guess trying a new list for a bit different audience is ok. I'll subscribe and try to help there. I would imagine that the mailing list may not get too much traffic, as Squeak-announce was somewhat similar in a sense. (But we'll see.)
I, too, think one list for all is ideal (I might agree though that some people can be intimidating on this list^^;).
Don't forget about the Pygmalion Effect. People tend to act how they are supposed to act. If we have two lists, and one is labelled as the "friendlier" list, that could be interpreted as a message saying that another list is "unfriendly", and it is ok to act unfriendlier there. This is not what we want.
Indeed - that's partly why I suggested "newbies" as list name.
I don't see it a problem that the same questions coming up to the list over and over again. Any question is the same, and human being is the best filter and the best mentor. If someone wants to ask a question, he should ask it, instead of looking for the right keyword to search the wiki database.
Apart from the intimidation, the barrier to any mailing list is the burden to go through the registration process... Is it reasonable to set up the mailing list which is moderated by bunch of people over different timezone, and accept posts from non-members?
Good idea. But how do the non-subscribers get their answers? We could try to CC the non-subscribed thread participants. Or auto- subscribe any poster?
Also very nice for newbies would be a mailing list <-> web forum gateway. I like the one at Nabble (http://www.nabble.com/Squeak- f14152.html), but it also requires creating an account ...
- Bert -
Hi Stef--
At 4:30am pacific time, you write:
I would like to close this thread. I will try and set up a list (squeak-newbies), and if it does not work, it does not work.
This is a bit autocratic for my taste. I think this decision is more appropriately made by the board of directors. I particularly don't like it happening when I'm asleep and can't say anything about it. :)
I know it takes more time to get multiple people to do something, but this kind of thing is why we even bother having a board.
thanks,
-C
I agree, if there is such interest I think it's worthwhile to be *more democratic*
regards,
Sebastian
-----Mensaje original----- De: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre de Craig Latta Enviado el: Domingo, 23 de Abril de 2006 14:09 Para: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Asunto: re: mailing list creation
Hi Stef--
At 4:30am pacific time, you write:
I would like to close this thread. I will try and set up a
list > (squeak-newbies), and if it does not work, it does not work.
This is a bit autocratic for my taste. I think this decision is more appropriately made by the board of directors. I particularly don't like it happening when I'm asleep and can't say anything about it. :)
I know it takes more time to get multiple people to do something, but this kind of thing is why we even bother having a board.
thanks,
-C
-- Craig Latta improvisational musical informaticist www.netjam.org Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
Craig Latta wrote:
Hi Stef--
At 4:30am pacific time, you write:I would like to close this thread. I will try and set up a list (squeak-newbies), and if it does not work, it does not work.
This is a bit autocratic for my taste. I think this decision ismore appropriately made by the board of directors. I particularly don't like it happening when I'm asleep and can't say anything about it. :)
I know it takes more time to get multiple people to do something,but this kind of thing is why we even bother having a board.
good point.
I'll help.
Ron Teitelbaum
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of stephane ducasse Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 3:00 AM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: Looking for good souls
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Squeak is so deep that half the time I feel like a noob working with it.
But I'll certainly subscribe and jump in with help where I can.
-Todd
On Apr 22, 2006, at 12:00 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
I don't consider myself a newbie as I've been playing with Squeak for years and have not been shy about displaying my ignorance on this list for all to see. :)
I'm not sure we need a new list. But if we do keep this list as the one list for all, we do need to make the Subscription page better.
It says at the top: """ This is the main Squeak developers' list, which isn't restricted to any particular Squeak topic. It is the newest incarnation of the list formerly known as squeak@uiuc.edu. It has been given the more specific name "squeak-dev" to distinguish it from other Squeak lists that are emerging. """
I think that it hasn't been the squeak@uiuc.edu for so long that we should drop that comment. It isn't meaningful to most people who subscribe today.
In this section we should make it explicitly clear that the list is for everyone. Maybe something like:
""" This mailing list is a general discussion list for Squeak. Squeak is a multi-faceted environment providing a variety of applications, a development environment and the Smalltalk programming language.
This list is for those who are interested in any area of Squeak. Whether you are new to Squeak or are a long-time veteran, please feel free to participate in friendly, productive and sometimes excited discussion. Don't be shy, jump on in, were here to help.
For more information about Squeak go to: http://www.squeak.org
To subscribe, unsubscribe, view archives or for posting information see below.
Enjoy! Squeak makes computing fun! """
Okay maybe I went overboard. :)
But hey, hammer this out on the list and lets provide a better front to this mailing list. And then if it proves at some point to have a squeak-users (or somesuch) list, then we can do that.
Jimmie
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi all
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Stef,
Your newbie idea is going gangbusters - the newbie ML is moving along very well. Congrats to you and everyone that encouraged its birth!
brad
Thanks, whoever added it to gmane already. Tip for mozilla thunderbird users: if you don't see gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.beginners in the subscribe screen, click the refresh button.
I saw and this is really amazing. We have to reply to them now... and to learn also :)
Stef
I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we should learn.
Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list.
So if we are 4 or 5 we win!
Stef
Stef,
Your newbie idea is going gangbusters - the newbie ML is moving along very well. Congrats to you and everyone that encouraged its birth!
brad
-- Brad Fuller Sonaural Audio Studio +1 (408) 799-6124 Hear us online www.Sonaural.com See me on O'Reilly
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