2009/6/28 Göran Krampe goran@krampe.se:
Hi all!
Matthew Fulmer wrote:
Awesome job guys. The volume of improvements Pharo has over Squeak really makes me wonder if the latter has any real relevance anymore.
Yes, it is quite an interesting situation IMHO, and one that most of us could foresee too I think.
NOTE: Read the following with a nice bucket of love, ok? I don't intend to make anyone upset. :) And sorry for the long post.
On one hand I really appreciate the Pharo project - lots of good people doing lots of good progress etc. It seems to be doing simply great.
On the other hand the "negative" effect I can see is the "drain" it has caused (I think) from squeak.org/squeak-dev. In other words, squeak.org has lost a lot of momentum, and of course not only due to the birth of Pharo I should add. And in many ways Pharo may also be the "rescue" to squeak.org. God knows we have been trying to find "our way" lately and with... less impressive results. :)
So... how will the future evolve? Does the Squeak community (in the large sense) have anything to gain from keeping both the squeak.org and the pharo fork "alive"?
I presume we have at least the following three scenarios:
- Continue as now and take no specific action. This will probably lead
to Squeak.org going weaker and Pharo stronger by the day. Developers will want to be where the "action" is. Soon squeak.org turns irrelevant and dies a slow death.
- Take some decisive action and "merge" the two in some *smart* way
beneficial to both. Impossible? I hope not.
- Just kill off squeak.org. A mercy kill :). Then people could move
over to Pharo without having to think about it - there is no other "Squeak".
Eh, well, my analysis is probably full of silly holes here. Looking at the above, 1 and 3 feels less nice. So how could a "merge" look that would be attractive to *both* camps? I call the theoretical merged project Phreak below (but I am not proposing name changes etc, but I need a name to use in the text).
Pharo characteristics:
- A small "benevolent dictator" board. Lots of action, less talk.
- Has a very clear stated "direction".
- Has a website using CMSBox.
- Uses Google code for issue tracker and wiki.
- Has Mailman mailinglists and downloads at gforge.inria.fr (I think)
Squeak.org org characteristics:
- Has an elected SOB, an election process and a Team model. The jury is
still out I think, we seem to have lots of trouble "getting shit done".
- Has very little stated "direction" at the moment.
- Has a website using Swazoo.
- Uses Mantis, Swiki, file archive and Mailman on a community paid
Hetzner server.
Now... why would Squeak.org want to merge with Pharo?
Pros: Get momentum back. 1 + 1 = 2. A revitalization. Very important!
Cons: The SOB & Team model would probably have to be dropped. The work made since Pharo forked may or may not be a "lost cause", that depends on if Phreak is interested in utilizing that work. Other cons?
...and Pharo?
Pros: An influx of developers. A much stronger position as Phreak would be Squeak + Pharo. No "compatibility" to worry about, Squeak is out of the picture.
Cons: Some people in Pharo may perceive such a merge as dangerous since they might be afraid that certain aspects of Squeak.org (that Pharo was created in order to escape from) is coming back "knocking on the door".
I personally don't think there is such a danger if Phreak simply adopts the simple organisation of Pharo (with board and all) BUT... since it would make the Pharo community much *larger* the effects of that growth need to be taken into account. But Pharo should not fear growth, because that would be an odd position.
How could a merge be done practically? I really don't know :). And I must stop typing now, this post is waaaaay to long anyway and I have probably stepped on too many toes already.
Hello Goran. You are definitely didn't stepped on any of my toes/toys. And i would certainly sacrifice my SOB membership (if this is a sacrifice), to see things moving & progressing as fast as they do in Pharo. As many others, i eagier to see the squeak/pharo/phreak shining - make it cool & modern software. The rest of things is barely bothering me.
What i like in Pharo, that they make decisions on strictly technical basis - no politics. If code is good - it candidate to be included. If code stinks - its a candidate to be excluded. Simple concept :)
For anyone, interested in my opinion: i would put a huge +1 for a merge on a Pharoer's conditions.
regards, Göran
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