What Juan is doing sounds great to me. The musical notes thing sounded especially cool.
From: goran@krampe.se Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: I am standing by Juan's proposal, do you? (was Re: Removing Etoys,Morphic and other friends) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:03:17 +0200
Hi all!
Since it feels that we are getting more concrete here I decided to rename the subject. Perhaps people join up in the discussion again. :)
Juan Vuletich jvuletich@dc.uba.ar wrote:
Hi Goran!
goran@krampe.se escribió:
Hi Juan and all!
I just want to say I am 100% with you on all this.
Thanks. It's nice to know that.
Though I am just one of "us" you know. :) But yes, it is nice to feel that people agree - and as I said I am all with you for three major reasons:
- You are a doer. You have already proved that.
- You are committed to this. We don't have many people committed to
Morphic development (on this low level) these days and I value each and every one highly. 3. You have a plan.
And my principle is that if someone is itching to improve something and has the above 3 things, then there is not much to argue about - I say go. :)
Could you possibly (as you probably know Morphic/eToys better than
most
of us) list the parts that we could "decide" about leaving in or
ripping
out? Lex started a list, but he also included some things that I had
not
thought were included (like ImageSegment for example).
To me eToys what you can find in the eToys package. That's why I put it there!
:)
Going thru Lex's list. (Lex, I didn't answer to your post because I think the list should be built by the community, and I didn't want to sound authoritative on this!)
- Tile based programming system. Yes. The central part of eToys.
- Halos. No. Halos are key to Morphic.
- Named morph search. No. I'd put this in 'MorphicExtras'.
- Uniclasses. Yes. They were implemented in Squeak to support eToys. And
they are not Smalltalky to me. However, 'make own subclass' is not eTtoys, and distinct from uniclasses to me.
- SmartRefStream and ImageSegments. No! Why would they?
- Projects and saving projects. No.
- Paint tool. No.
- Flaps. No.
I think this list sounds perfect to me.
Anyway, I don't want to say what should be removed and what should not. But clearly in my reduced 3.7 image, I removed lots of stuff besides
eToys.
Let me repeat: To me eToys what it is in the eToys package.
I think it would be a nice way forward in this discussion.
regards, Göran
PS. This subject came up around an OOPSLA hacking table with Dan
present
- he also remarked that Morphic is indeed quite small - if you
consider
only Morphic itself.
:)
But we did not discuss the issue at any great length. Also Doug applied your recipe to have a look at the result
etc.
Doug, I'd like to know what were your impressions on this!
We never got around to any personal conclusions, though. But I for one applaud and greatly appreciate your diligence in this matter and I
think
it would be GREAT to have a small "isolated" clean Morphic in Squeak that is maintained and proven. And I am probably not alone in that.
Well, I hope you're interested in my Morphic 3.0 project then. It is my vision for morphic improvement. Check www.jvuletich.org !
I am. Let me put this interest in some perspective btw:
- Morphic is proven to work. But seems to be in a mess and thus is
brittle and also not maintained much because people can't get a grip and are also appalled about lots of the stuff that is in there today (eToys related I think). So it is sitting still today. Btw, this is MY primary objective behind getting eToys out - because I want a more attractive Morphic that then might get maintained instead of just sit there.
- Tweak came along and people interested in these things probably
decided to hang around and wait to see if Tweak would end up replacing Morphic in "official Squeak". Now it seems to not go that route, at least not in a hurry. I love the fact that we have Tweak and new ideas etc, but perhaps it is time to grab what we have and make the best of it instead of waiting for Tweak.
So... Juan stepping up and offering his time to produce a clean, maintainable and rejuvenated Morphic is IMHO Right On Cue.
I hope that people raise their voices and give him their support. I then hope that the next release team (3 people that we still do not know who they are) considers giving Juan a slot in 3.10 for this rejuvenation, and I also hope that the board show their support in this. And I hope that Juan is willing to take on the Steward role for Morphic together with a few more brave souls with an interest in Morphic (there are a few I think). I bet perhaps even Dan Ingalls could be interested, but he might be too busy at work.
Cheers, Juan Vuletich
regards, Göran
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