Hi avi
I mainly agree with you. For me I do not want higher order modules in Squeak. I would like to have a good way of handling together classes and changes in logical group with dependencies. I think that the modules of henrik could cover that. I'm not against having namespace there. Some people claim that packages and namespace should be orthogonal. They are certainly right but I could really live with that.
What I would like is **any** system that helps me managing my work and the dependencies between the stuff I have. If the system could perform some analysis indicating that I will crash my system this would be great (I accept reflective thing breaking but not simple: this class is not present what do I do). Then I would like to see how squeak can be cut into piece so that I do not have to have sound and etoy if I do not need it. For me modules or packages should be a way to realize distributed development and to help the multiple head that squeak could have to grow (we could have mini squeak, etoy squeak, sqScript all based on the same VM and core and load the other on wish).
They should also help SqCentral people to focus on their business and not cleaning and checking that the parts of the system do not desaggregate.
So I think that we have the same wishes. A simple tool to control complexity.
Stef
On mercredi, octobre 16, 2002, at 10:04 pm, Avi Bryant wrote:
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, [ISO-8859-1] Göran Hultgren wrote:
Ok, what about all you other people out there? Are my explanations making any sense? Henrik - could you please acknowledge that I haven't made any gross factual errors? Daniel, what do you think?
I continue to stand by the Modules codebase as a good start, but I am always open for improvements.
It seems to me that part of the problem with these discussions of modules is that nobody has been terribly clear about what they hope to get out of them. Perhaps if we make our goals clearer, it will be easier to talk about the possible solutions. Here are a few things that I would think a module system might provide:
- A way to specify related pieces of code. This has to
include both entirely new classes and patches/additions to existing classes. Let's call these "packages". 2. A way to easily save and load these packages to and from easily distributable files. 3. A way to cleanly update an image with a new version of a package. 4. A way to cleanly unload a package from an image. 5. A way to analyze dependencies between packages. 6. A way to specify dependencies between packages. 7. A way to protect packages from name clashes. 8. A way to organize packages hierarchically.
IMO, 1-3 are the most important. Not surprisingly, these are also what DVS mostly provides, although it works better for straight additions to existing classes than for patches to them. The interesting thing is that this can be provided without any changes to the base image, as a simple addon package.
4, I think, could also be done fairly easily on top of 3.2, but it seems much less important to me: once I've loaded something into an image I rarely want to remove it. If I'm testing a new package, I use a throwaway image. I guess that assumes a minimal base image to load things into.
Daniel has already done 5, again in 3.2. I don't see why 6 would be very difficult - it ties into what Daniel and I were talking about with subclasses of Module to store metadata. 6 also seems like something that SqueakMap might be extended to do.
7 is, of course, the big one: it is the real justification, as far as I'm concerned, of the work that's beem put into 3.3a. But how big a deal is it? Are people routinely struggling with naming conflicts? I tend to throw a 2 letter prefix in front of my class names and forget about it. But maybe that's just me.
8 would be nice, but the major benefits (being able to load/unload groups of packages at once) can be gotten through dependecies + dummy packages, the same way most of the linux packaging systems work.
This is a highly personal take on things, of course - I'm not pretending that these preferences will be the same for everyone. I'd be curious to hear what, for example, Stef's or Henrik's version of this list would look like. But me, I'd rather see a lightweight module system in 3.2 without namespaces or hierarchy get widely used first, and then start to think about the full Module system a la 3.3a.
Avi
Dr. Stéphane DUCASSE (ducasse@iam.unibe.ch) http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/ "if you knew today was your last day on earth, what would you do different? ... especially if, by doing something different, today might not be your last day on earth" Calvin&Hobbes