Squeak-dev October 2001

squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

191 participants
600 discussions

RE: Access vs. Media
by Swan, Dean 12 Nov '01

12 Nov '01

John, >A 320x240 screen is just too small for >programming, in Squeak or any other >language. Programming is hard enough >even when you have enough screen real >estate... Forgive me, but I just can not let this go un-rebuked. Many of us started our programming careers on machines like the venerable Apple II, which only had a 280x192 screen and a fixed pitch 40 by 24 text mode. So, as Andreas mentioned, a lot of people once "knew" that you can't write an operating system in C. It seems that a lot of people now "know" that a 320 x 240 screen is too small for programming. We really should be able to craft a version of Squeak that would be a usable development and runtime environment on a machine with the power of a 33 MHz 68K and a small display. I avoid saying a "Palm" because: 1) There are many low cost handhelds in this category. 2) The Palm OS has some limitations that could impede performance. -Dean P.S. This message is 40 characters wide by 37 lines, just to make a point. With a 6x8 font, it would fit completely on a 240 x 320 screen with room to spare.

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RE: A stupid newbie question
by G.J.Tielemans＠dinkel.utwente.nl 07 Nov '01

07 Nov '01

You are missing the point that for a normal user - not the computer-fun-people - the best solution is to put all materials in one box and if they want to use it, they only would have to open that box: windows-shorthand for that: "give me a .exe" -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. O'Keefe [mailto:ok@atlas.otago.ac.nz] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 1:30 AM To: squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: RE: A stupid newbie question "Stephen Pair" <spair(a)advantive.com> wrote: Looks like we have two metaphors to compare: A) Double click and icon and squeak runs B) Drag one icon on top of another and run Squeak Am I missing something, or have I been using (A) on MacOS for as long as I've had Squeak (since 2.7)? What's to complain about? It's there! It just works.

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[BUG] New projects need kickstarting
by David N. Smith (IBM) 06 Nov '01

06 Nov '01

Hi: I've been creating a lot of new projects (using them as foils in a talk) and have noticed an irritating feature. Every time I open a new one, and dive into it, I can't get menus to work. I discovered that if I press Command-Period (Mac) or the equivalent on Windows, get a walkback, and close the walkback window, then things work. I'm on the latest updates on 3.1 and usually run Squeak-D3D.exe. Did I somehow miss an update or something? Dave >From "Ned Konz <ned"@bike-nomad.com Fri Oct 12 21:13:00 2001 Return-Path: <"Ned Konz <ned"@bike-nomad.com> Delivered-To: squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org Received: from mail.whidbey.net (mailout.whidbey.net [209.166.64.124]) by lnx-1.theinternetone.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 89E0BC3465 for <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org>; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:12:58 +0200 (MEST) Received: (qmail 19979 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2001 19:12:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO aSqueakSystem) (208.31.145.234) by mail3.whidbey.net with SMTP; 12 Oct 2001 19:12:46 -0000 Subject: [FIX] StringChangedFix-nk To: squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org Content-type: multipart/mixed;boundary="==CelesteAttachment74039==" Mime-version: 1.0 From: "Ned Konz" <ned(a)bike-nomad.com> Message-Id: <20011012191258.89E0BC3465(a)lnx-1.theinternetone.net> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:12:58 +0200 (MEST) Sender: squeak-dev-admin(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org Errors-To: squeak-dev-admin(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org X-BeenThere: squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org List-Help: <mailto:squeak-dev-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org?subject=help> List-Post: <mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/squeak-dev>, <mailto:squeak-dev-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> List-Id: The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev.lists.squeakfoundation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/squeak-dev>, <mailto:squeak-dev-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/> --==CelesteAttachment74039== from preamble: "Change Set: StringChangedFix-nk Date: 12 October 2001 Author: Ned Konz In Change Set 4393StringMorphOptimize-nk I missed a changed message in the case where the StringMorph doesn't change size. This fixes that problem and still avoids sending multiple changed messages for a single change."! --==CelesteAttachment74039== Content-type: application/octet-stream Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-disposition: attachment;filename="StringChangedFix-nk.cs.gz" H4sIAAAAAAAAAF2TTW/aQBCGzz7sfxjoATiEYODQWKrUJlHUqGqpBFUPUYQWe4xHeGcd77px o6i/vYOxA+Hk3fl4Zt6Z9eCutAaWTxXq3Ww81XmRabApzGARe7vBEqaTSQgPufboPFRFIocI Pszn4cdHsAzh9H2k9mKKwnk0nUNhBj3Vv8k0bxGW6KMgWPqSeHswJXdUX/BO3e6RQRCcodSX yme23Ht+YALfLL8odc9w5MF8djU7EL/bssgWhSdDL7iH3oMh5yRPQ3yoBgad05JJDD5DiLVD eM6wRLW/nnAgseh44NtMcMIcwyojBynV6CReZBal3eRoQHMCzlOeg/5jKXHgkBNBgalyT0WO 5w0IxZbSl5OgN++431NK9U67MCj6E3cnM4CBjmPJFt9AimlTiIl3EE4uw+llM3iZ+uRK5p2S v7Hskb1TKngFF2tmGSnj87WtWPrbNJ92B/Cqgi5kDbfkilz/XbaGp4ri3U/pyC846pySX59e qkbtta1FFvtI5Odpc1zZXw7HKjhWXsNwOOyquUbqb0p8FkHctjwCo+uWYYjJVKaJGAF8fpOS E+NXpG3mR4J/L2fdygOs90D49+moXIIb8MEVnTiCoJ9gqmVh4OTN+YuYyrgi74DSDsi2exBJ /7wqpauykv/i4dB5t/DHcQ9krf8BCE7Fs2UDAAA= --==CelesteAttachment74039==--

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Re: Debian and SqueakL revisited again...(was Re: Debian source package)
by goran.hultgren＠bluefish.se 04 Nov '01

04 Nov '01

Hi guys! (cc:d to Stephen since he should be able to answer some questions) Ok, we are discussing the Squeak-L, Debian etc. Stephen, I thought (from discussing this with a Debian friend) that the main problem with getting Squeak into Debian was related to the export restrictions, but that may have been wrong(?). Having read up a bit on your postings to linux.debian.legal it seems that it was a combination of: - the indemnification stuff - fonts - publishing of base modifications First of all - the fontproblem is solvable and/or not a problem. StableSqueak has replaced them so that is one simple way out. And then it may be a non-issue altogether: http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/1849 Regarding the publishing of base modifications, I am not sure what Debian's problem is/was? I also saw your posting: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Debian+Squeak&hl=en&rnum=1&selm=E15qMT m-0000ML-0W%40anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net And you also wrote somewhere else that: > A similar clause in the Squeak license was > enough to prevent me from packaging it as Apple confirmed to me that it > did indeed mean that if a Debian user sued them then Debian could > theoretically be liable to pay any legal fees and damages. You need to > have this clarified. That does sound as "the killer" - also read more below. Andrew? John Hinsley <jhinsley(a)telinco.co.uk> wrote: > Duane Maxwell wrote: > > > > On Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:21 PM, Andrew C. Greenberg wrote > > > On Thursday, October 25, 2001, at 08:19 PM, Lex Spoon wrote: > > > > The main problem Debian has with Squeak-L is the indemnification clause, > > > > not the "non-free" parts. Would you not be worried yourself about > > > > agreeing to such a clause? > > > > > > No. I would expect anybody who let me play with their code for free, so > > > that I was free to do anything I wanted to do with it -- including using > > > it to cause damage or infringe, would expect me to hold them harmless > > > when THEY got sued for MY conduct. > > > > I agree completely. You often hear the OSS community whining about how some > > software house should release their abandoned code base as OSS (cf. BeOS, > > Amiga, OpenMail, etc.) . In today's litigious environment, no sane company > > would do so unless they were able to at least raise some indemnification > > barrier to protect them, so I would expect clauses like this one, and ones > > that are more or less required by XYZ country's export restrictions to be > > pretty much standard in anything that somehow manages to get released. > > Now, perish the tort ;-) I don't want to get involved in arguments with > lawyers, but the GPL states: > > 8. > If the distribution and/or use of the Program is restricted in certain > countries either by patents or by copyrighted interfaces, the original > copyright holder who places the Program under this License may add an > explicit geographical distribution limitation excluding those countries, > so that distribution is permitted only in or among countries not thus > excluded. In such case, this License incorporates the limitation as if > written in the body of this License. > > (Which might cover the export restriction stuff) This is interesting. I had missed that in the GPL. But still Squeak-L doesn't talk about "patents or by copyrighted interfaces" - it simply says that countries in some way banned by the US is a no no. > and > > 11. > BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR > THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN > OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES > PROVIDE THE PROGRAM ``AS IS'' WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER > EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED > WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE > ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH > YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL > NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. > > 12. > IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING > WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR > REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR > DAMAGES, INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL > DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM > (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED > INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF > THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR > OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. > > Which seems to me to cover the indemnity stuff adequately. At least we could perhaps sortof "settle" on why Debian is not doable so that we at least know why we can't bang on Debian's door anymore. regards, Göran PS. Sorry for continuing the thread... :-) DS

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[celeste] moving from Communicator to Celeste....
by John Hinsley 03 Nov '01

03 Nov '01

I'd like to switch from Communicator to Celeste. I don't have any problems with multiple ISPs and such. The problem I do have is simply the huge amount (well, hugeness is relative, currently nudging half a gig and all in standard Netscape 4.7* on *nix format) of stuff I have to transfer over. It can't be as simple as copying all the child directories over, or can it? Ideas, advice and cries of "don't do it!" welcome. Cheers John -- If you don't care about your data, like file systems which automagically destroy themselves and have money to burn on 3rd party tools to keep your system staggering on, Microsoft (tm) have the Operating System for you.

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[RFI] A couple of small issues
by Karl Ramberg 03 Nov '01

03 Nov '01

A change set a few months back enhanced the way progress was shown when loading progress: SlightProgress-skwm.1.cs I used it and thought it improved the visual feedback, so I suggest it should be fixed to work with the latest and greatest system and included. Another issue is the flap tabs; they obscure each other. Take the 'widgets' and 'supplies' flaps at the bottom of the screen when I do a 'browser reentry' to do some stuff in the mac they will cover each other so I only see one of them. A change so that they lay out not totaly obscuring each other would be nice. (also paying attentenion to the nav bar would be good) Also when I click one to view the contents and another is allready open, the other one could collapse again. Karl

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[ENH] save preferences to disk
by Simon Michael 03 Nov '01

03 Nov '01

"Add buttons to the preferences panel to save & restore settings to & from disk. This is useful for transferring preferences from one image to another..." I implemented this to save effort when I start a new image. It's my second changeset, and I welcome all comments. Lightly tested with 4411 and 4418. Cheers, -Simon

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libcurl?!
by goran.hultgren＠bluefish.se 02 Nov '01

02 Nov '01

Hi guys! When looking for ammo :-) in "the GPL/LGPL duel" on the net I stumbled upon cURL and libcurl: http://curl.haxx.se/libcurl/ Could this be a good plugin candidate? It sounds super to me, has a good license (MIT, which I guess is ok with SqueakL, oooh, here we go again... ;-) and seems to be very easy to interface to, take a look at the C-api. Anyway, fishing a bit before I try myself. There are so many other good slang-wielders out there but of course, now that VMMaker (thanks, Tim) is here I have no good excuse to stay out of the plugin business, right? :-) regards, Göran PS. Plugins for solid good libraries is IMHO a very simple way of making Squeak better. We don't HAVE to make everything ourselves, right? :-) Even if it is fun... DS

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Command Key Actions on NT
by frippiat.j＠kst.be 02 Nov '01

02 Nov '01

I use Squeak on NT and the Command Key sequence "Cmd-6" (and alike) seems not to work. Is there a way to make it work ? Thanks. Joseph

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Re: [ENH][Modules] Projects vs Modules, was: Delta Modules
by Henrik Gedenryd 02 Nov '01

02 Nov '01

goran.hultgren(a)bluefish.se wrote: > Projects vs Modules > ---------------------- > > I have read the stuff on the Swiki and my naive view is this: > > A Module is a published piece of code. Right, an abstract (piece of a) program with no reference whatsoever to how it is represented, run, or anything. Effectively a sort-of-mathematical abstraction. > It is not a "binary deliverable". > But you can download/load/activate them in your environment. I think it > is good that they are not binary and I think it would be much harder to > build such a system with the functionality that Henrik have put in there > if they were binary. Being non binary also makes it possible to > manipulate these things more easily. On the other hand the repository is > a pluggable component so that we can have different kinds of > repositorys. For example, we could have a repository implementation that > uses ImageSegments or something to increase loading speed. > A Project is more of a published binary deliverable. It surely can/could > contain one or more modules but it also contains live instances etc. It > is in my eyes analogous to the "binary download" you see everywhere on > the Internet - just click and go. Typically not used by developers when > they need a module to use in their own project but more for Squeak > endusers "surfing for content". I would like to distinguish Projects from Components--a Component is a concrete representation of the code in a Module, that can be dynamically loaded and unloaded. (Components also imply dynamic hook-up and such, which is a much smaller problem in Smalltalk than in e.g. C++, which has no standard representation for program meta-objects. Smalltalk already has all/most of that.) So a Component = a Module or Modules as concretely represented in Squeak (class and compiledmethod objects, etc.). A Project is more than just this. > A Project is more of a published binary deliverable. It surely can/could > contain one or more modules but it also contains live instances etc. I assume what you read was <http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/2058>. Importantly, Projects have contents, as in "content provider", not just code (but it may contain code). This is what you call live instances, and I think this is the essential difference between Projects and Components. What projects really are today is kind of vague, but the best notion I've been able to come up with is "the kind of thing Alan wants kids to create with their DynaBooks". But Alan/SqC also seems to have frequently changed their mind about^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H refined the notion of what Projects are. I proposed Creation as the best name I could come up with instead of Project, which is extraordinarily vague and generic for such a specific use, and gives poor hints to what this "thing" is and does. A Creation is a collection of "hand-made" objects that someone has created (with a nod to Koestler with the colored planes). See the above page for a discussion of this. As I see it, as concepts, Components are layered on top of/incorporate Modules, and Creations extend Components to include hand-made objects. Eventually. _____ a Creation ( ) ¨¨|¨¨ _____ Components ( ) * (0 or more) ¨¨|¨¨ _____ Module(s) ( ) + (1 or more) ¨¨¨¨¨ > Example: > > I write a cool Morphic game including classes for general animation. The > code is composed of a Module representing the Game itself with 2 more > general submodules for Animation and Sound. They are not really blessed > to go into the "base image" so I put everything in "People/gh/CoolGame". > Ok, I upload it all onto the virtual module server (more on that later) > so that people easily can load this module. Yes, this is enough if all your objects can be programmatically generated by your code. > > But I also set up a Project where I start the Game up with a centered > window and I also type in a todo-list in an open Workspace. Finally I > smack in a nice looking background image and then publish the Project > onto Bobs superswiki AND also to another superswiki in Sweden containing > only Morphic games (just fantasy). These are "hand-made" (ie. non-programmatically generated) objects, which code isn't sufficient for creating (without taking extreme measures). At least code isn't convenient for creating them. You need the ability to conveniently (distribute and) load _objects_. This is the added role I assign to Creations. I think Creation also implies this having to do with "hand-made" objects (vs. code-generated). > So, developers typically load the module to get to the code and perhaps > reuse my Animation module or just check out how the game was done. Right, just to get the code, Modules are enough. Components/image segments may be convenient (think the 1MB refactoring browser). > End > users typically find the project and loads that - it probably is faster > and they get a "just point and click" experience. They get the modules > with the project, but that is just a bonus. Right, this to get the non-code objects too. In general, I think Repositories should be a general facility for conveniently storing and accessing anything Squeak-related, including e.g. Projects/Creations, so that you can just give a path to a Project, or help pages, or you personal preferences file, or whatever, and Squeak will be able to locate the files for you. > regards, Göran So what we really need is for SqC to agree with this ;-) Henrik

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