Squeak-dev April 2002

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195 participants
665 discussions

Re: Website look
by goran.hultgren＠bluefish.se 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

"Mark S. Miller" <markm(a)caplet.com> wrote: > >Lex Spoon <lex(a)cc.gatech.edu> said: > >> you worry that businessmen will equate "open source" > >>and "OSI", but that hasn't even happened (yet?) among us technical > >>people. > > Hi all, I'm Mark Miller, and I run an open source project over at > http://www.erights.org . > > Lex, my perception is that this has indeed happened among both technical and > business folks. I agree. [SNIP of good argument about guarding the distinctions made by FSF & OSI] > > In any case, I've read section 6 of SqueakL and don't understand the problem > with it. I tried looking at the squeak archive, but it's no better indexed > than mine ;), so I wasn't able to find an explanation of the problem. If > this has already been hashed out, then please respond to me privately rather > than on the list. Here are some quotes on that from OSIs license-discuss: "... Requiring compliance with U.S. laws, even in other jurisdictions is unnecessary. But the way paragraph 6 is worded, I think it obviously fails the OSD non-discrimination test. I quote that paragraph: 6. Export Law Assurances. You may not use or otherwise export or reexport the Apple Software except as authorized by United States law and the laws of the jurisdiction in which the Apple Software was obtained. In particular, but without limitation, the Apple Software may not be exported or reexported (i) into (or to a national or resident of) any U.S. embargoed country or (ii) to anyone on the U.S. Treasury Department's list of Specially Designated Nationals or the U.S. Department of Commerce's Table of Denial Orders. By using the Apple Software, you represent and warrant that you are not located in, under control of, or a national or resident of any such country or on any such list.<p> I am sorry that there are some previous licenses to work with here. Squeak is pretty well-known. But my recommendation: DEFINITELY DO NOT APPROVE. ..." And also regarding the "font problem" (which we easily can fix of course by removing them): "... Section 2: There is a thorny issue about fonts. While fonts are clearly not part of the program if distributed separately, it is difficult to say that they are not part of the program when they are so distributed. If they are part of the program, then this section runs afoul (IMO) of #1, "shall not restrict any party from selling . . . the software". I think the fonts should be in a separate package differently licensed, with all references to them excised from this license. ..." "... Striking the section is, IMO, necessary: elsewise there is a restriction in the license on the software that the OSD requires there not be. I'm pretty sure this list's opinion on 'unenforcable' clauses is 'then take it out!' :) ..." regards, Göran

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Re: PLEASE use MIME Atttachments! (was: Re: [FIX] Comments for Set...)
by goran.hultgren＠bluefish.se 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

Obviously this issue has been resolved (I think) but anyway, that "sick horse" still seems to be twitching a bit, let's go get it... "Richard A. O'Keefe" <ok(a)cs.otago.ac.nz> wrote: > Good point at the end, > skip the rest if you aren't interested in the argument. > > goran.hultgren(a)bluefish.se wrote: > > Looking at the code, I see that "mail to list" sends the message > > to "squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu". I note that the originating address for > > Eh. Where did you look? I just looked in my 3.2g image and I ended up > in: > > ChangeSet>>buildMessageForMailOutWithUser: > > ...and as far back as 9/27/2001 (#4385) it seems to be correct. Mind > though I might be looking in the wrong place. The address is in my > image: squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > What update-level is your image? > > Squeak 3.0.1 of 2001.02.04, update 3552. Yes, the list has moved after that so unfortunately that hardcoded address is wrong. > Sure could! In that case I guess that Squeak fired it away alright but > you didn't get to see the bounce(?) > > It was simpler and far more embarassing than that. See bottom. > > > Ear sick horse. Mail sent from Netscape worked fine. > > What does "Ear sick horse" mean? I am not native english speaking so I > didn't get that. > > "Ear sick horse" = "Yes of course". Ok. :-) > > - they are not necessary, > > - they are not supported by all mail user agents, > > - they are notorious for insecurity. > > Just curious, how is uuencoding better than attachments then? It's not > supported in all email clients AFAIK. > > The key point is that it doesn't _have_ to be. Eh. You lost me there I think... Or, ok, you mean that we can always copy/paste into Squeak and get a cs.gz that way? Yes, that's true. It would perhaps add an extra step (for most people) to get that .cs.gz down on disk but sure. Honestly, my only point is that I want us to use ONE scheme. What particular scheme that is doesn't really bother me. > So you want us to change this? > > Obviously not. Why should I want to stop anybody doing anything that > works for them? What I was hoping for was a more generous attitude. Ok, I misinterpreted you. I thought that you wanted either that we should change over to another scheme or at least allow the use of both schemes (or more). Changing the scheme would be alright for me, as long as it is simple for most users. I am still against having multiple schemes. > For example, for someone who understands Celeste, it should be a simple > task to write a filter that decodes a uuencoded message and fires it out > again as a Celeste attachment. Less than half the energy that has been Sounds like a dandy feature. > spent in stepping on me could have given us the best of both worlds. Well, this list is a friendly place. I hope I didn't participate in any "stepping". Anyway, you were kindof "aggressive" IMHO so... ;-) Peace. > > I am of course perfectly willing to use whatever method *works*. > > Well, you could have fooled me. > > But you say you read the bit where I said I had made repeated attempts > to try the official way, with no success. How could such statements > possibly fool you into thinking I was not willing to use a working method? As I said earlier I might have misinterpreted you. You argumented quite heatedly for allowing the use of uuencoding (If I am not mistaken) which sounded to me that you where unwilling to use the method that the rest of us use. [SNIP] > I propose the following change to Celeste. For all I know, it may already > have been made in Squeak 3.2, but if not, I hope someone will do it. > > A "Mister Postman" window has two big buttons at the top, > "send message" and "add attachment". Change this to three: > "send message later", "send message now", and "add attachment". > "send message now" should open up an SMPT socket and send the > message right away. Sounds good. regards, Göran

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Re: Website look
by goran.hultgren＠bluefish.se 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

Bert Freudenberg <bert(a)isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> wrote: > On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Göran Hultgren wrote: > > > [...] But I still think it (the phrase on Squeak.org) should either be > > written differently - or, if people really insist on keeping the current > > phrase "Squeak is open source." then IMHO it should be accompanied with > > an explanation of FACTS. [...] > > Actually, the current wording is "Squeak comes under an open source > license, meaning that you can download and use it for free." Sorry, my fault, I quote myself from the initial post: "Btw - perhaps we should change the wording "Squeak comes under an open source license" to perhaps "Squeak has a very liberal license" or something like that. I think the last word on OpenSource certification was that SqueakL is NOT OpenSource." > This is only the intro page. All the detail is in the "About" page, > including an explanation of the license terms. Yes, I know. > > All this may sound silly to a lot of you [...] > > Indeed. I'm glad you acknowledge that ;-) Well, it was never meant to become a long thread! It was just a detail that I thought could perhaps be changed in order to avoid misunderstandings or accusations of false claims. But obviously I am quite alone in thinking this - which may very well mean that I am "wrong" - so let's just forget it, it's not that I care THAT much! ;-) > -- Bert regards, Göran

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RE: Website look
by Peter Crowther 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

> From: Lex Spoon [mailto:lex@cc.gatech.edu] > The font and indemnification and export clauses are > nothing for someone trying to use Squeak in practice. You may not export the Software to a national of any US embargoed country, or anyone on a couple of US Government internal lists. Are you sure you never have? - Peter

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Re: Some 3D initial reactions
by Bill Schwab 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

Joshua, Based on your overlapping morph suggestion, I just tried it on the P3 with the original morph framing (which probably overlapped by a pixel along any or all edges) and again with framing that keeps morphs well-away from the two 3D views. I'm still seeing a degredation of performance when acceleration is enabled (and it is hitting the disk every second if not a little faster), BUT, without acceleration, the frame rate went from 10-15 and struggling to keep up with user input to 20-30 and responsive. It will be interesting to see what happens on the P2. Thanks! Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bills(a)anest4.anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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[BUG] command key in MVC projects?
by Craig Latta 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

Hi-- The command key doesn't seem to work properly in MVC projects. To duplicate, open a workspace in an MVC project in a fully-updated image, and try to evaluate (3 + 4) with cmd-p. I'm getting inconsistent answers from InputSensor>>primMouseButtons. I've noticed this on win32 and Linux. Does this ring any bells? thanks, -C -- Craig Latta improvisational musical informaticist craig.latta(a)netjam.org www.netjam.org crl(a)watson.ibm.com Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]

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storing MVC projects?
by Craig Latta 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

Hi Dan-- How much effort (in time) do you think it would be to get MVC project storage working? (I'm writing a talk about the history of Smalltalk GUIs, and I'd like to store a project that contains other projects, some of which are MVC.) thanks! -C -- Craig Latta improvisational musical informaticist craig.latta(a)netjam.org www.netjam.org crl(a)watson.ibm.com Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]

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Re: [Q][morphic] how to hide submorphs
by Martin Drautzburg 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

Ned Konz <ned(a)bike-nomad.com> writes: > On Monday 29 April 2002 10:41 am, Martin Drautzburg wrote: > > > How can I hide a submorph ? #hide makes a submorph invisible but it > > still gets mouse events and thus will allow dragging its parent. > > If you don't want the parent to be picked up by mouse down, tell it to > be sticky: My problem is I have submorphs outside the area of its parent (I did it again). Occasionally I want to hide them but if I use #hide I can still drag the parent from the invisible submorphs. The parent should not be sticky as such.

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Some 3D initial reactions
by Bill Schwab 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

Andreas, I finally made some time to experiment with Squeak's 3D graphics. Using a Wonderland w/o an editor seemed the way to go, as I'm guessing that by the time I got Balloon3D to do what I wanted, I'd have created a buggy version of Alice anyway. Reasonable? Alice's terminology was a _slight_ hinderance, because I know just enough (though not much) about 3D graphics to expect different conventions. Even so, with the Squeak books handy, I had stuff floating around on the screen under (horribly simplistic) user control in just a few hours. I'm really just getting started, but, the performance so far is fine on my P4. It appears not to be adequate on my P2-400 and a P3 here in my office, but, I'm not yet using hardware acceleration. Interestingly, the same P2 was happy with slightly more graphics using Dolphin's DirectX kit. My guess is that hardware acceleration was the key. But, I can't prove it because enabling acceleration on that machine in Squeak causes a crash. I have a dump if it will help. Much to my surprise, my P4 experienced a reduction(!!) in frame rate with acceleration enabled. Same on the P3, but I hear lots of disk activity, so maybe that's the problem? The P3 has "only" 128MB of RAM, so with win2k, it's not the fastest machine. However, it's also possible that I don't have the machines properly configured. Is there a way to tell whether Balloon3D is happy with the setup? Is there a way to disable shading? Some of what I want to display would actually be better as wire frames anyway. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bills(a)anest4.anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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[ENH] DateAndTime
by Ross Boylan 30 Apr '02

30 Apr '02

from preamble: "Change Set: DateAndTime Date: 21 October 2001 Author: Ross Boylan This change set is an adaption and extension of Brent Pinkney's work to bring ANSI standard DateAndTime and Duration implementations to squeak. However, that work replaces the existing Date, Time, Week, and other classes, while this leaves them in place. The new analogues have DT prefixed to their names (e.g., DTDate, DTWeek). I have also removed various code that makes the new scheme the default for the whole system. So this makes the new approach available, without mandating it or changing the rest of the system. I have used it in 3.1 and 3.2 alpha images. Since someday these may become the standard classes in the image, I recomend NOT hardcoding these class names. Instead use DateAndTime dateClass and similar methods in the DateAndTime class migration protocol. I have also made a few changes and extensions, notably providing more support for formatted printing and reading of DateAndTimes. The reading capabilities are still primitive. In particular, you must use 4 digits for the year. See Brent's Swiki page http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/1871 for more information and motivation. Brent, who is currently on an extended vacation, is pinkfoot(a)bigfoot.com. Ross is RossBoylan(a)stanfordalumni.org"!

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