Squeak-dev February 2005

squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

191 participants
430 discussions

Improving Squeak's Multimedia - Part 2
by Brad Fuller 08 May '05

08 May '05

Hi All, Fantastic, we have several people who are interested and I hope willing to play a part in improving Squeak's Multimedia capabilities: Blake (Blake: what's your last name?) Dean Swan Craig Latta Russell Penney Steve Elkins Martin Kuball Yoshiki Ohshima Mark McCahill Juan Vuletich Cornelius Huber Brad Fuller I hope I didn't misspell or miss someone. If so, apologies. Let me start off the discussion by asking some hi-level questions. And, by all means, please chime in. I present only one slanted POV --- your views will be valuable to provide a robust analysis of the situation. === Multimedia Definition Maybe the first order of business is to achieve agreement on what we mean by "Multimedia". I looked it up after Martin's email and he's right - multimedia includes a variety of media such as the real-time areas (e.g. film/video, music) as well as static media (e.g. text, graphics.) Russell provided another interesting POV that containers could hold a multitude of multimedia assets. and that these basic frameworks could provide easy re-use. My 2cents: I was only thinking of "real-time" assets such as audio, music, video, etc. What are your thoughts on the definition of Multimedia? === Hi Level Interests? Furthermore, our definition of Multimedia may be a clear superset of what we want to tackle. For instance, it might turn out that we have just enough hands, or interest, to look at the audio classes; or maybe just video; or maybe the majority is only interested in adding MPEG4 to Squeak. For me, I'm obviously interested in only audio and video. I know this is broad, but I just want to get the top level issues out of the way. As an example of elimination, I am not interested in graphics or text. What are your interests? ==== Attack Plan Finally, I propose that we decide on what to tackle and how to do it. From a bird's eye view, we might look at 3 distinct phases (not necessarily linear in order - can be approached simultaneously): * Review/Discuss/Plan/Fix existing classes (which hopefully fix existing tools/apps) * Discuss-Design/Plan/Enhance existing classes * Discuss-Design/Plan/Add new capabilities: new classes, tools and end-user applications. (That's a lot, right there.) I'm willing to put in time, at the very least, toward fixing and enhancing the audio/music side of MM. I'm also interested in helping to test and use any video functionality - especially audio-video synchronization issues. Lastly, I would like to begin discussing new real-time capabilities for Squeak -- sort of plan while we get the house in order (the discussions might circumvent fixes, who knows.) What areas interest you? And, are you interested in helping? ===== Is This A Team? Finally, Finally, In light of the current squeak-dev traffic: Does this look like a team to propose? It seems orthogonal to the team proposals from the castaways. What do you think about MM as a team? Is it a sub-team? How does the rest of the Squeak community feel? brad BTW: Are there any related on-going projects that should be incorporated?

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[ANN] Kedama version 2.0
by Yoshiki Ohshima 03 May '05

03 May '05

Hello, I've been working on a parallel particle programming system called Kedama. The last version wasn't quite good enough to announce, but I feel this version is a bit better. Kedama is deeply inspired by StarLogo and StarSqueak. In Kedama, you can control thousands of objects with eToy-like tile scripts. Please take a look at: http://www.is.titech.ac.jp/~ohshima/squeak/kedama2/ and give it a try. Thank you! -- Yoshiki

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Squeak-3.7b audio recording issue on FC3
by Brad Fuller 12 Apr '05

12 Apr '05

Hi All, I'm running the following: FC3 kernel: 2.6.10-2.1.11.rhfc3.ccrma Alsa driver 1.0.8-1.rhfc3.ccrma Squeak VM 3.7b from the hp dnl site (the Intel x86 Linux rpm) Squeak3.7.5958-full.image clean Both Alsa and the OSS emulation work fine with other applications (such as ardour and mplayer using it's OSS interface). I haven't seen any problems with them so far. In Squeak, audio plays fine. But, when I start up squeak, go to the Widgets flap, drag out a "Sound" morph and push record, squeak hangs. Its repeatable every time. Any idea why? I'm thinking back thru my memory and I can't remember if this has happened before... but it may have. I searched thru Mantis and found nothing but one audio bug that was a playback bug. Anybody else running Linux with 3,7? If you are, can you try this and see if you get the same result? Any ideas? I'll keep searching the archives... and dig more into this bug on 3.7. Just wanted to see if anyone has seen this issue before I go searching too far. thanks, brad

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graphic designers: trash can icon!!
by Lex Spoon 04 Apr '05

04 Apr '05

The current trash can icon in Squeak does not look right if your background is non-white. I have played a little with trying to fix it, but this is beyond my graphics tweaking skills. Does anyone know how to fix the thing so that it looks okay on an arbitrary background? Or, is there a trashcan icon we can steal from somewhere else? Or does someone want to draw a new one? Don't forget there are really two icons: closed can, and open can. -Lex

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Squeak on Handhelds, Status?
by Stefan Krecher 02 Apr '05

02 Apr '05

Hello, the topic "Squeak on Handhelds" has been discussed several times on this list in the past. I'd just like to ask, what's the state of the art, if there are people working with/ on Squeak for Handhelds, an maybe if there's some help needed. Background: Smalltalk is my favorite programming language, and a couple of years ago i worked with Visual Age for Smalltalk. In the past years I played around with Squeak, but i'm far away from beeing a Squeak-expert. At the time i have to implement a UI for a Handheld running WindowsCE (iPaq). The UI shall control actions served by an ejb/ servlet-container (jboss) via HTTP-GET-Requests to a servlet. For the first version of the control-sw we used ewe, a free Java-Implementation for Handhelds (www.ewesoft.org). Unfortunately the UI was not "sexy" enough for our customer. Now I'm trying Squeak, because Morphic as a lot of possibilities to implement graphics/ animation/ sound and other "sexy" things. (btw. "sexy" in this context means: colorful, animated, playful etc.). For the first tests I used the SqueakVM 3.0 compiled for ARM (http://www.is.titech.ac.jp/~ohshima/squeak/WinCE/) and a default 3.2-image. Everything seems to work fine, i built funny buttons, lists and so on. Networking works fine too (WLAN). I'd like to know if there are any pitfalls - for now everything seems to be a bit too easy. Do you have any hints/ tips for stripping down the image? Any ideas on how to implement an automatic installer (an executable that installs the sw on the iPaq)? I heard of the possibility to "close" the image (prevent the user from opening a world-menu etc.). Thanks in advance for any hints, tips or resources. And if there's any help needed, let me know. regards, Stefan -- GPG fingerprint = 2E77 C256 47B1 27B8 AE07 94BE D7A1 2A3C C716 2BE9 GPG public key: http://krecher.de/pubkey.asc ICQ #84067348 "A specter ist haunting the modern world, the specter of crypto anarchy" The Crypto Anarchist Manifesto, Timothy C. May

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Problems building Win32 Squeak
by Aaron Gray 20 Mar '05

20 Mar '05

Hi, I have downloaded the 3.7.1 Win32 source and tools from SourceForge and have tried building Squeak, but am getting link time errors. The following symbols are undefined :- win32JoystickDebugInfo win32JoystickDebugPrintRawValues win32JoystickDebugPrintAlternativeValues win32DebugPrintSocketState 'sqWin32FilePrims.o' seems to be missing from the link as there are further undefined symbols from this file. And there are thurther error messages... Help, Aaron

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[ANN] v2 Package loading/unloading - fully functional
by Michal 18 Mar '05

18 Mar '05

hi - Attached you'll find a much cleaner editor for loading/unloading scripts attached to PackageInfo *and* a fully functional loader/unloader of packages (hence ignore the quick'n'ugly hack I posted a couple of days ago). I've tested it in both 3.7 and 3.8g and was able to load and unload packages cleanly, with preambles and postscripts run for both loading and unloading. To use it, just file it in and open a new Monticello browser. There you'll find: 1. a new button 'scripts'. Click on it (with a package selected) and it will offer to edit anyone of the four scripts (preamble, postscript, preamble of removal, postscript of removal). 2. a new button 'save as package'. This will save your monticello project as a loadable/unloadable package instead of a simple mcz file. 3. a working 'unload' function. In the package pane, get the menu and choose 'unload'. This now runs the preamble, postscripts of removal around the actual unload process. 4. when filing in the newly created package, it is seen as a normal SAR file and will do the right thing. Note that the package format will change towards the one that Avi suggested. This change set implements my original suggestion of creating a SAR which contains the install/preamble|postscript and removal/preamble|postscript. I have done this only as a proof of concept, to show you how the new instVars in PackageInfo lead to directly loadable/unloadable package now, today. (The extension of the package file is simply .mcz.sar) I expect that the package format will change next week to make it a simple mcz file which nows how to store the preambles/postscripts and how to use them on load/unload. But that's an implementation detail, in fact it needs to change only one method in this changset (#createPackageForVersion:). Enjoy and packagize :) Michal ps. I have also attached a trivial Dummy.mcz.sar package. If you load it and unload it in after having filed in the changeset, you'll see how the preambles/postscripts are run.

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3.8 last items
by goran.krampe＠bluefish.se 06 Mar '05

06 Mar '05

Hi all! Just bringing this onto the list. And oh, I could of course have commented in Mantis, but what the hell. :) regards, Göran ------- Hi Michael! Michael Rueger <m.rueger(a)acm.org> wrote: [SNIP] > I'm waiting for some "last" m17n fixes and we need to port forward a few > fixes from the squeakland update stream. Otherwise we (especially Bert) > went through Mantis and collected the fixes that were up there. Good. I will ignore that and stick to the stuff below. > Here's our current 3.8 todo/question list: > > * ffi and #(nil true false) http://bugs.impara.de/view.php?id=617 Ouch. Have you fixed all the trivial fixes Andreas talks about? I can do that otherwise. It seems logical to stick with ANSI on this I guess. Do you know what the issue is in FFI? > * target setting http://bugs.impara.de/view.php?id=503 Do we want to > include it? Haven't looked at it yet, but can if you want me to. The description makes it sound useful. What is your view? > * clean out Project-Servers (FIND button) > http://bugs.impara.de/view.php?id=413 Just swiping those that don't work or? I can do that I guess, but have no idea what should work and not. :) > * Update Server (unstable updates?) Let's put Doug on that. Doug? > * Check Server list (file list, broadcast updates ...) Same thing, Doug? > * Flaps (http://bugs.impara.de/view.php?id=764) I can take a look and bounce on Ned. On first test the second version seems harmless enough and does what it should. Even though I must say that the font in the flaps is worthless on my lappy. Seems to be the same as eToys has by default: standardEToysFont BitstreamVeraSans Bold points: 9 height: 12.0 > I would leave it to you guys to make the decisions on those, we will > collect the remaining m17n/squeakland fixes as they come in, hopefully > this, latest next week. Cool. Btw, you are putting this in the regular stream? I updated to 6550, is that correct? And not using unstable? > Michael regards, Göran

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Retiring BFAV
by Ken Causey 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

Back in September of last year in more or less official terms (the best we could manage at the time anyway) it was suggested that all new BUG reports be posted on the Mantis database. At that time all ENH and FIXes would still go to the list. Compliance with this policy has been spotty at best. I'm now suggesting that we stop with the half-way measures and simply designate that the Mantis database (http://bugs.impara.de/) is THE official location for new BUG, ENH, and FIX reports. Why? 1. As the BFAV server maintainer I can testify that the system itself is somewhat fragile. 2. Posting BUG reports to the list has some benefits in terms of visibility but it has some major problems. a. Any tool that has to try to automatically extract the useful reports for the flood of activity has a difficult job even under the best of circumstances. b. There is no enforcement in email for any kind of standard of reporting in terms of minimal information or staying on topic. One result of this is that more than a few threads in BFAV are overloaded with off-topic discussion. This makes the task for the prospective fixer, harvester, reviewer whatever rather more difficult. Also it has happened in more than one case that reports to the list have the exact same subject even if they are not really on the same topic. This results in them being mixed together in BFAV client. 3. As we progress to a world where people are signing up to be responsible for parts of Squeak we need a way to filter reports to those people that are best placed to handle them. BFAV has a difficult time of providing this. Mantis already has the facilities to do this. Now, I don't expect the world to change overnight. I expect that for some time after we make this 'official' that reports will continue to appear on the mailing list. In fact sending reports to the mailing list is something that newbies would probably be more comfortable with than immediately jumping in and tackling the complexities of filling out a Mantis report form. To that end the Janitors group is proposing to form a small team who will accept the responsibility for seeing that all reports to the list after some date (sometime next week I hope) will be checked for reasonable validity and be posted as new reports on the Mantis database. I expect that we will continue to provide this service well into the forseeable future although with luck the volume of new reports to the list will decrease. Why not? 1. Using the Mantis requires a little knowledge. I think with the process I outline above that the Janitors will handle we can completely address this one by allow the occasional report to still appear on the list and the understanding that as quickly as possible we will see to it that it shows up in the Mantis database. 2. Using the Mantis database is awkward. Admittedly this is a new tool to many people. I feel that once everyone has learned to use it that most of the awkwardness will disappear. The only acception to this that I can come up with is trying to evaluate Squeak code attachments. Right now that requires a two-step of saving the file from the web page and then opening it in Squeak with a filelist or similar tool. I personally don't think that is too bad. However I expect that before too long we can address this one as well with a little Squeak tool that allows you to specify the Mantis ID number of the issue and then offers you a list of attachments that can be viewed and processed as easily as attachments in the BFAV client. Ken Causey

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[REPORT] Report 1 from castaways (that name sucks...)
by goran.krampe＠bluefish.se 04 Mar '05

04 Mar '05

Hello Squeakers! First I would like to say... phew. :) We know you guys are waiting to see what the heck we are going to do and I am sorry for this report to be a day late or so. But when you read it I hope you will forgive us. We know that the only thing worth anything is results - in every aspect of the word. So please keep your expectations at a reasonable level - we have had about 3 days now, mostly packed with communication - and while I do think we have quite a nice report here, 3 days aren't much at all. But we felt the pressure hard to get something OUT. The last few days have been hectic to say the least - but despite our bumpy start - it feels things are now moving along nicely. Ok, enough chit chat. Clarification -------------- I did post it separately, but here it is again. By this leadership group being *temporary* in the announcement we *meant* it. So hear us - 2006-02-15 at the LATEST, we will step down. We don't have the energy to go any longer than a year. Period. So if SqF hasn't delivered by then, we will either have to improvise and get a new group formed or we are all left hanging. The more likely period for us is probably in around 6 months. A Course Correction ----------------------- We want to make sure that we are seen as a legitimate leadership group by as many as possible in this community and Doug came up with a good idea to help doing that - by asking for the acknowledgement from the currently forming SqF... which is still forming, but we think it can be done. We will simply throw ourselves "at their feet". :) And we all like that idea. Who and what is SqF? Since SqF hasn't yet made any real public postings and hasn't yet formed its own structure (but we think more will come very soon about that) we are taking the liberty of at least giving you an idea. SqF (or what is called SqF formation) is currently a non-public mailinglist with 29 people. That list has a good cross section of people which includes all of the people in previous groups in charge of Squeak, the Guides, Squeak Central and several others. Of course, the list isn't by any means an elected representation of the community or anything like that, but it is the best we have at the moment. Roughly this will be done by us presenting our group and as much as we can about how and what we want to do. This is all what we have said previously and are saying with this report, nothing else. The proposal will also include a veto mechanism in which SqF will be able to veto any action on our part, as a safety mechanism - details are sketchy. Now, this can't be done until SqF gets a few mechanisms in place, like for example how to perform a vote :), but we are trusting in SqF to do so ASAP. We hope this will clear up any misunderstandings about our intentions, and of course that it will turn out all for the best. It is *also* putting some pressure on SqF to actually get cracking. And if we fail to get the support from that group of people - then this initiative ends Right There. There is of course no point in even trying to lead the community in that case. We are not stopping to wait for this support though - since as we have explained - we have no idea when that will be clear. Hopefully as soon as possible. Organisation boring stuff ------------------------------ We have created a Swiki for our notes, todolists, simple rules on how we work together etc. We just now made it public readonly so that you all can see at all times what we are doing, but my advice is to read this report in full before going there: http://anakin.bluefish.se/castaways It will be moved to a more proper place on the new server when we have that geared up. And of course we have the alias to reach us all: mysterious-island(a)discuss.squeakfoundation.org Now, our group has gone through some changes. Unfortunately it seems the Mysterious Island book is haunting us a bit. In the book one person fell off the balloon (!) just before landing on the island, not sure what became of him actually. So unfortunately the same happened (not literally though) in reality so Michael Rueger will not be able to work with us in this group. Michael is though still active in bringing the 3.8 release to a close, more on that below. So we are now four and we will not try to replace Michael. We need to get cranking instead and there is no real point in extending the group because we are focusing on extensively using a team/task driven approach. We also want to make clear that there is no internal hierarchy or anything like that in our group - the reason I am doing most of the talking is... well it beats me, it just turned out like that. :) So informally I might have ended up being a secretary/spokesperson, but that is ALL there is to it. I personally do not like that I have ended up so overexposed, especially since several people have expressed serious doubts about my interpersonal skills, but I trust you to believe us when we say that there is no hierarchy at all. Tasks and Teams ------------------- We are using a simple approach here. A task can be much anything. Each task has a team with a leader. On the castaway swiki there is a simple table that keeps track of the running tasks, who is the leader and also who of us (Doug, me, Marcus or Cees) is responsible on our side to track it. We don't keep track of who are the team members - that is just all up to the team leader. The swiki has the current list of running tasks, but don't go there and spoil this report - read below instead. :) Special Advisor ----------------- One REALLY good thing is that Dan Ingalls has offered to help us in the role of a "special advisor". Now, what is that? Who cares, it's Dan!! ;) Well, but seriously Dan wants to give us his input on any and all issues so he is a full member but without the responsibilites. Which he likes fine. :) This means he also gets all our email and has write access to the Swiki etc. But he chooses himself how much he wants to do. We are of course delighted to have Dan with us, especially since he is also joining in some of the tasks! Contact persons ------------------ In order to get a better coordinated community "as a whole" we have also approached all the related "satellite projects" around Squeak and asked if they want to appoint a "contact person" that we can use to communicate with that project. The current list of contacted such projects or communities are: -Squeakland -SmallLand -Croquet, Andreas Raab confirmed -Tweak, Andreas Raab confirmed -Seaside, Avi Bryant confirmed -Tk4 -The Berne Guys, Stephane Ducasse confirmed -Japanese Squeak community, Yoshiki Oshima confirmed -Georgia Tech The idea is that we are then able to send out questions and info and request potential feedback before going forward with certain plans that may affect the projects. The projects also get a channel for grabbing our attention if needed. We will start by sending out a general inquiry to get a feel of what the projects want in a longer perspective. We will of course have this list published later with names of the contact persons we get. And if you know more such "satellite Squeak communities" that we have missed - please let us know. Burning issues ----------------- We started trying to make an inventory of "burning issues" in the community. The current content of the list is known to most, but we need this list to get our bearings and to make priorities. The list is available on the Swiki: http://anakin.bluefish.se/castaways/2 ...and if you want to help us add more to that list - remember, this is an inventory - nothing more. Also, Ned has written quite a bit on these issues here: http://bike-nomad.com/squeak/community2.html I (Göran) am still distilling the above document to find bullets for the list. So again, here is a great place to help us out, because right now things are hectic and we surely are missing stuff. Just email. Some of the issues there we are trying to deal with, but we will not remove any issue until it is solved, old and totally obsolete. Consider that list as our "collective pains". :) Services --------- As many know we have a new community server called "box1". It can be reached at box1.squeakfoundation.org, but has no webface at this time. But lots of stuff are being consolidated to that server. Some quick facts: - The machine is a virtual server running Debian with lots of bandwidth and disk. RAM is slightly more cramped, but no problem yet, and we can always just ask for more. - The machine is paid for using a PayPal account Cees set up a while back ready to take donations. And quite some money has arrived so the immediate need is definitely taken care of. - We are several people with root access that cooperatively maintain it. - SqueakMap, BFAV, a Subversion mirror and all new created lists are running there. - There is a file area which Bruce O'Neel has full control over (a Task btw): http://box1.squeakfoundation.org/files - There is a nightly backup running to a server at Bluefish, but we gladly add another one somewhere. - Rsync is on the box so that anyone can easily set up a mirror of the file area. - We have mirrored over the current www.squeak.org and we have Dan ready to repoint it to the new server any day now. ... and probably quite a few more things is there that I am forgetting now. There is also an ongoing Task to create a new nice website and it will be hosted there of course. Stephane leads that task and Bruce is working on the design and a bunch of other people are also involved. The new site will be wiki-editable with a team to do the editing. But Stephane can tell you more on that. I can only tell you that the sneak peak I have seen looks SLICK AS HELL. :) Release of 3.8 ---------------- We have talked to Michael Rueger about the 3.8 release and it is almost ready. There are only a very few items on the todo list left. Michael Rueger and Bert Freudenberg together with us 4 will try to wrap it up. I don't think we need more manpower to do that, but if so we will find it, and if you want to help - we aren't *stopping* you. :) We have agreed together with Michael to set the release date to 1st of march. Up, Up and Beyond ---------------------- Hehe, that heading puts on some pressure, now doesn't it? :) So what about 3.9 and after that? This is not a full description of everything that we think we should do - we have "only" picked two specific tasks that we are sure we want to push really hard and like us all to rally around. Also, don't take anything here as written in stone, it is of course all up to the community to work together in all this. We just hope it sounds good and that you will join us. :) Note that this section does NOT deal with a lot of the things already proposed for 3.9 - "Stefs roadmap". We just haven't had time to go through that yet nor foster a good discussion around it in the community - that is on our immediate todo list though and a thread will be started right after this report has been posted. Then we discuss it all together and we get those things nailed down. Now, given all that... (deep breath) this is what we want to do. ToolBuilder! ------------- As many have seen the recent discussions on Tweak, Morphic etc spurred Andreas to write a little abstract UI framework that gives just the functionality that most of our tools need. Then it maps to the different backends (Morphic, Tweak, MVC etc). Andreas being who he is :) quickly worked something up and people started to join the fray. This little project has a good momentum and we want to push this even harder. Andreas started this great initiative, and we want very much for this layer to become an official package in Basic as of 3.9. This also means we want a dedicated maintainer with at least one co-maintainer of it and a team/task for making this happen. So the question is who wants to be team leader on this? Andreas? Avi? Anyone else? As for us - we intend to put our own efforts into this - Cees is already involved, I will start with porting SqueakMap Package Loader over to it and I think/hope Marcus will do SUnit. This project has a list of its own that you can join at: ui-subscribe(a)discuss.squeakfoundation.org Now, we believe this package will be *emintently* important given the second thing below... MinimalMorphic! ------------------- This part is a bolder move. We are starting a task with Cees de Groot as team leader called MinimalMorphic. The task will run *in parallell* with the ongoing regular work on 3.9 and track 3.9 as the base. The job is to create an automated procedure that brings/shrinks the 3.9 image down to a lean and clean tools-only Morphic image. Or possibly also down to MVC, but that is up to the team. The side product of this work is meant to be a loadable RestOfMorphic package and an eToys package. Or at least a RestOfMorphic package including eToys, that is also up for the team to find out. This is a hard job and involves cleaning up Morphic to its original simplicity and tweaking the tools to only use that part of Morphic. Dan Ingalls wants to be a part of this work (yes!) and Juan Vuletich has already announced his interest/intentions in working on this, which is just great. And there have been quite a number of people discussing these aspects recently. Cees will contact people and get the team together and anyone interested to help should of course talk to Cees. This procedure will not actually be applied to the 3.9 update stream, so 3.9 will be a "traditional fat" release, and exactly what 3.9 entails is that other "Stef roadmap"-thread we will start ASAP. But when 3.9 is released the MinimalMorphic procedure will be appliable to it and available on SM, which is a nice thing. The first thing for the 4.0 release is to actually apply the MinimalMorphic procedure in the update stream. Bam! 4.0 will start its life as a lean and mean Morphic machine. :) We of course then also let 4.0 get a shrunk V4.sources and an almost empty .changes file. Now, the ToolBuilder is a very important part of this dance - it defines the needs of the tools and will make it easier to see exactly what this small Morphic needs to deliver. So as we said before, it should enter 3.9 Basic as soon as we can make it. And since 3.9 is the last release with MegaMorphic intact as it looks today it will give the tool maintainers time to move over to ToolBuilder so that the tools will work in the new lean world of 4.0. There are of course lots of open questions and details to all of this but this is it - this is what we want to focus hard on. Of course it doesn't preclude other ongoing things, like getting the PackageInfo bit working and getting started on TFNR (assigning maintainers to parts of the image, without actually ripping them out) - I and Doug are still very much going to focus on that during the 3.9 period. Finally we would like to thank Avi for making us look in this direction and Dan for pushing us even further than we first dared, as Dan so well put it himself - "it's ballsy". :) But with Dan on board and the current energy level in the community (Can you feel it?) we think we can all pull this off. Final word ------------ We are aware that there are some members of this community that don't trust us, at least not yet. We are also aware of a large number of people that have expressed their support in full, and a lot of it in private. So the only question worth asking now is... are you prepared to give us the benefit of the doubt and work with us? We are NOTHING without you. While we both are trying to get teams cracking on concrete things, we also will continute to look at the burning issues list and try to improve our processes. But we gotta have something to do next week too. :) :) We are now moving over from the planning/communication phase to the "doing it" phase. We hope you join us in all the work ahead. Let the fun begin. :) regards, Doug, Göran, Cees (Marcus, see below) PS. Marcus is part ill, part overwhelmed by other things at this point. He is in catch-up mode and hasn't had time to fully catch up yet.

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