Hi!
This a call for old versions of Smalltalk. I used to have a couple of them, and feeling the urge to see if they work in DOSbox on OS X, I having tried in vain to find them. I did find my copy of Smalltalk/ V 3.0 for DOS and use a computer at my wife's work for this purpose to copy files off the 5.25" disks, and it works! This is a graphical version of Smalltalk for DOS that doesn't work well in DOSbox, perhaps problems with EGA drivers or something. But I did have another version of Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text windows, though I can't remember the precise name/version of the software- Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?
Anyway, if you have a copy of this, could you please send it my way?
In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk for various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love to see a real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for instance. Please email me if you can help me out with this!
Regards, Aaron
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:18:42 -0600, Aaron Reichow revaaron@bitquabit.com wrote:
But I did have another version of Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text windows, though I can't remember the precise name/version of the software- Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?
Smalltalk/V 286 was the successor to Smalltalk/V DOS. I worked on a distributed objects/multi-machine simulation system written in Smalltalk/V 286 back in 1989, and it had a full graphical environment.
You might be thinking about Methods, which was the predecessor to Smalltalk/V.
Later, Jon
-------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Hylands Jon@huv.com http://www.huv.com/jon
Project: Micro Raptor (Small Biped Velociraptor Robot) http://www.huv.com/blog
That's right. Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical environment. Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/smt-286.jpg As you can see from Date today it is pretty fresh and in good shape ;-). So if you are looking for a text based version of /V I can't help.
Btw, Is there a gallery with screenshots of various smalltalk images anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg It was the try to merge VisualWorks with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise but as you know it never got into production.
If anybody has a ready to use virtual machine (VMware etc.) with OS/2 3 running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images I would like to run again.
Regards, Franz Josef
Jon Hylands schrieb:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:18:42 -0600, Aaron Reichow revaaron@bitquabit.com wrote:
But I did have another version of Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text windows, though I can't remember the precise name/version of the software- Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?
Smalltalk/V 286 was the successor to Smalltalk/V DOS. I worked on a distributed objects/multi-machine simulation system written in Smalltalk/V 286 back in 1989, and it had a full graphical environment.
You might be thinking about Methods, which was the predecessor to Smalltalk/V.
Later, Jon
Jon Hylands Jon@huv.com http://www.huv.com/jon
Project: Micro Raptor (Small Biped Velociraptor Robot) http://www.huv.com/blog
Franz-
On Feb 23, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Franz Josef Konrad wrote:
That's right. Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical environment. Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/ smt-286.jpg As you can see from Date today it is pretty fresh and in good shape ;-). So if you are looking for a text based version of /V I can't help.
Well, I'm not specifically looking for a text-based version of Smalltalk/V- I just can't remember for sure what that other version of Smalltalk is. I purchased it used when I made frequent trips to a local computer store scouting for any used software that had to do with programming/IDEs, etc. Speaking of which, that is certainly something you don't see anymore- computer stores that sell used software. But, unlike my Smalltalk/V disks, I can't find the disks of this mysterious other Smalltalk I once purchased.
Jon's mention of Methods sounds familiar, that may have been it.
Btw, Is there a gallery with screenshots of various smalltalk images anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one: http:// squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg It was the try to merge VisualWorks with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise but as you know it never got into production.
Definitely interesting! I don't know of any site like that, but it would be fun to work on compiling one! Especially if we could get access to some of the software and create new screenshots, direct comparison shots. Something like a GUIdebook entry for Smalltalks over the years ( GUIdebook = http://www.guidebookgallery.org/ screenshots ).
If anybody has a ready to use virtual machine (VMware etc.) with OS/ 2 3 running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images I would like to run again.
Unfortunately, I can't help you there! I've very fond memories of OS/ 2 2.1, though I never had Warp 3 or 4.
Regards, Aaron
It was Methods. I think Steve Burbeck still has a copy. Steve?
As for other DOS versions, I have the old ParcPlace ST80 for DOS. It struggles to run in a dos box, but on an old DOS install it should run fine.
Sam S. Adams, IBM Distinguished Engineer, IBM Research Robinson, tie 444-1497, outside 919-254-1497 ssadams@us.ibm.com Corinthians 1:10>>
Aaron Reichow <revaaron@bitquab it.com> To Sent by: The general-purpose Squeak squeak-dev-bounce developers list s@lists.squeakfou <squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation. ndation.org org> cc
02/23/2007 11:04 Subject AM Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS
Please respond to general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev@lists .squeakfoundation .org>
Franz-
On Feb 23, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Franz Josef Konrad wrote: Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical
environment. Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/ smt-286.jpg
good
shape ;-).
help. Smalltalk/V- I just can't remember for sure what that other version of Smalltalk is. I purchased it used when I made frequent trips to a local computer store scouting for any used software that had to do with programming/IDEs, etc. Speaking of which, that is certainly something you don't see anymore- computer stores that sell used software. But, unlike my Smalltalk/V disks, I can't find the disks of this mysterious other Smalltalk I once purchased. Methods sounds familiar, that may have been it. with screenshots of various smalltalk
images anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one: http:// squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg
with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise
but as you know it never got into production.
don't know of any site like that, but it would be fun to work on compiling one! Especially if we could get access to some of the software and create new screenshots, direct comparison shots. Something like a GUIdebook entry for Smalltalks over the years ( GUIdebook = http://www.guidebookgallery.org/ screenshots ). with OS/
2 3 running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images I would like to run again.
very fond memories of OS/ 2 2.1, though I never had Warp 3 or 4.
Yes, I do have a Methods distribution from 1985 complete with manual, two floppies and the license. It is an interesting historical note that Digitalk license protected the binary interpreter but gave essentially unlimited rights to the Smalltalk Source Code including rights to distribute, sell, license, lease or loan them as you wish! So, anyone who wishes to reimplement the interpreter is home free. I would guess that it wouldn't be a huge task to repurpose the Squeak interpreter to run Methods. But with Squeak available, who would bother?
Whether the 5.25" floppies are readable is another matter. Needless to say, I don't even have a floppy drive to find out.
Regards, Steve Burbeck
___ Multicellular Computing www.evolutionofcomputing.org ___
In the 20th century we created ever more capable computers. Now we create ever more elegant groups of collaborating computers. We recapitulate the biological evolution from single-cell to multi-cell organisms.
Sam Adams wrote:
It was Methods. I think Steve Burbeck still has a copy. Steve?
As for other DOS versions, I have the old ParcPlace ST80 for DOS. It struggles to run in a dos box, but on an old DOS install it should run fine.
Sam S. Adams, IBM Distinguished Engineer, IBM Research Robinson, tie 444-1497, outside 919-254-1497 ssadams@us.ibm.com Corinthians 1:10>>
Aaron Reichow <revaaron@bitquab it.com> To Sent by: The general-purpose Squeak squeak-dev-bounce developers list s@lists.squeakfou <squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation. ndation.org org> cc 02/23/2007 11:04 Subject AM Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS Please respond to general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev@lists .squeakfoundation .org>Franz-
On Feb 23, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Franz Josef Konrad wrote: Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical
environment. Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/ smt-286.jpg
good
shape ;-).
help. Smalltalk/V- I just can't remember for sure what that other version of Smalltalk is. I purchased it used when I made frequent trips to a local computer store scouting for any used software that had to do with programming/IDEs, etc. Speaking of which, that is certainly something you don't see anymore- computer stores that sell used software. But, unlike my Smalltalk/V disks, I can't find the disks of this mysterious other Smalltalk I once purchased. Methods sounds familiar, that may have been it. with screenshots of various smalltalk
images anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one: http:// squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg
with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise
but as you know it never got into production.
don't know of any site like that, but it would be fun to work on compiling one! Especially if we could get access to some of the software and create new screenshots, direct comparison shots. Something like a GUIdebook entry for Smalltalks over the years ( GUIdebook = http://www.guidebookgallery.org/ screenshots ). with OS/
2 3 running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images I would like to run again.
very fond memories of OS/ 2 2.1, though I never had Warp 3 or 4.
On 24-Feb-07, at 10:43 AM, Steve Burbeck wrote:
So, anyone who wishes to reimplement the interpreter is home free. I would guess that it wouldn't be a huge task to repurpose the Squeak interpreter to run Methods.
Well don't forget that most of the compiler was in the v m as well; that would add quite a lot of effort.
To the best of my knowledge I had the first copy of Methods in Europe. I was an IBM Research fellow at the time, working on UI stuff for 3D CAD systems. It's rather disconcerting to think that on a 4- ish MHz 8086 with less than 1MB of ram, it was possible to run a tolerable Smalltalk with a snappy UI. Now I have a 4Ghz (split across 2 cpus) and 2GB ram and the UI is just barely tolerable.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim "How many Pak Protectors does it take to change a lightbulb?" "Only one, but the lightbulb has to smell right."
Steve-
On Feb 24, 2007, at 12:43 PM, Steve Burbeck wrote:
Yes, I do have a Methods distribution from 1985 complete with manual, two floppies and the license. It is an interesting historical note that Digitalk license protected the binary interpreter but gave essentially unlimited rights to the Smalltalk Source Code including rights to distribute, sell, license, lease or loan them as you wish! So, anyone who wishes to reimplement the interpreter is home free. I would guess that it wouldn't be a huge task to repurpose the Squeak interpreter to run Methods. But with Squeak available, who would bother?
Whether the 5.25" floppies are readable is another matter. Needless to say, I don't even have a floppy drive to find out.
Thanks for the reply! I'm not interested in re-implementing the Methods interpreter in Squeak, or anything like that. I'm mostly interested in playing around with these old Smalltalk systems, and in general other development and application software from years past. However, that bit of info about the license is really interesting- it's a shame that sort of flexibility is so rare these days.
Would you be willing to lend, give or sell your copy of Methods? I've access to an older machine with a 5.25" drive, and I can copy the disks and send the files back to you.
Regards, Aaron
Regards, Steve Burbeck
___ Multicellular Computing www.evolutionofcomputing.org ___
In the 20th century we created ever more capable computers. Now we create ever more elegant groups of collaborating computers. We recapitulate the biological evolution from single-cell to multi- cell organisms.
Sam Adams wrote:
It was Methods. I think Steve Burbeck still has a copy. Steve?
As for other DOS versions, I have the old ParcPlace ST80 for DOS. It struggles to run in a dos box, but on an old DOS install it should run fine.
Sam S. Adams, IBM Distinguished Engineer, IBM Research Robinson, tie 444-1497, outside 919-254-1497 ssadams@us.ibm.com Corinthians 1:10>>
Aaron Reichow <revaaron@bitquabit.com> To Sent by: The general-purpose Squeak squeak-dev-bounce developers list s@lists.squeakfou <squeak- dev@lists.squeakfoundation. ndation.org org>
cc
02/23/2007 11:04Subject AM Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS
Please respond to general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev@lists .squeakfoundation .org>Franz-
On Feb 23, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Franz Josef Konrad wrote: Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical
environment. Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/ smt-286.jpg
good
shape ;-).
help. Smalltalk/V- I just can't remember for sure what that other version of Smalltalk is. I purchased it used when I made frequent trips to a local computer store scouting for any used software that had to do with programming/IDEs, etc. Speaking of which, that is certainly something you don't see anymore- computer stores that sell used software. But, unlike my Smalltalk/V disks, I can't find the disks of this mysterious other Smalltalk I once purchased. Methods sounds familiar, that may have been it. with screenshots of various smalltalk
images anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one: http:// squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg
with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise
but as you know it never got into production.
don't know of any site like that, but it would be fun to work on compiling one! Especially if we could get access to some of the software and create new screenshots, direct comparison shots. Something like a GUIdebook entry for Smalltalks over the years ( GUIdebook = http://www.guidebookgallery.org/ screenshots ). with OS/
2 3 running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images I would like to run again.
very fond memories of OS/ 2 2.1, though I never had Warp 3 or 4.
Steve Burbeck wrote on Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:43:00 -0500
Yes, I do have a Methods distribution from 1985 complete with manual, two floppies and the license. It is an interesting historical note that Digitalk license protected the binary interpreter but gave essentially unlimited rights to the Smalltalk Source Code including rights to distribute, sell, license, lease or loan them as you wish! So, anyone who wishes to reimplement the interpreter is home free. I would guess that it wouldn't be a huge task to repurpose the Squeak interpreter to run Methods. But with Squeak available, who would bother?
Though very off topic for this list, I have an interesting story related to this. I was building a 68000 based Smalltalk computer when Smalltalk V/286 came out with exactly the same license you described. This was before ParcPlace so Digitalk's Smalltalks were the only ones that mattered. Though it would have been pretty easy for me and the programmer who worked for me to build our own image from scratch just following the Blue Book the result wouldn't be entirely compatible with Smalltalk V and I felt this would be *really* bad for the future of the language.
So I exchanged some emails with Digitalk's Jim Anderson and then called him (if the emails were rather expensive for me at the time, an international phone call from Brazil was absurdly so) to propose that he let me distribute their image and sources with my machine. I would write my own virtual machine so Digitalk would have no costs at all and I was willing to pay some royalties. Note that through their license Digitalk had already given me permission to do what I wanted without paying them anything at all! But just because it would have been legal, I didn't think it would have been nice to do so without asking.
Jim expressed his doubts that I could do what I proposed and said he would think about it. I am still waiting for his final reply :-)
A couple of years later Digitalk did come out with a 68000 based product, Smalltalk V/Mac. And much later I found out about other similar projects they had with some academic and industrial partners at the time. So he might have felt there would have been some conflicts (my original impression that they were going to focus exclusively on the PC was wrong). I think they weren't very serious in their license and didn't expect anybody to actually copy the other parts without their virtual machine.
-- Jecel
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:18:42 +0100, you wrote:
Hi!
This a call for old versions of Smalltalk.
...
In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk for various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love to see a real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for instance. Please email me if you can help me out with this!
I have a backup copy of Smalltalk-80 V2.3R4 for Atari, 6 floppies. I'm not sure whether they can be read by any existing hardware but if someone out there with related experience can give it a try please contact me.
/Klaus
Regards, Aaron
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:18:42 -0800, Aaron Reichow revaaron@bitquabit.com wrote:
In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk for various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love to see a real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for instance. Please email me if you can help me out with this!
I think I may have my old Visual Age Smalltalk from '95--but that was for OS/2!
Chris Grindstaff did a port of Squeak to DOS back around 1.18. (I ran it a few times back then on my 486.) Probably still on a server somewhere.
Aaron Reichow wrote:
Hi!
This a call for old versions of Smalltalk. I used to have a couple of them, and feeling the urge to see if they work in DOSbox on OS X, I having tried in vain to find them. I did find my copy of Smalltalk/ V 3.0 for DOS and use a computer at my wife's work for this purpose to copy files off the 5.25" disks, and it works! This is a graphical version of Smalltalk for DOS that doesn't work well in DOSbox, perhaps problems with EGA drivers or something. But I did have another version of Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text windows, though I can't remember the precise name/version of the software- Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?
Anyway, if you have a copy of this, could you please send it my way?
In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk for various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love to see a real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for instance. Please email me if you can help me out with this!
Regards, Aaron
David-
Yes, in fact it still is! I've run it too, and it's pretty wild. And, just to share, it works great in DOSbox!
Regards, Aaron
On Feb 27, 2007, at 4:25 PM, David Mitchell wrote:
Chris Grindstaff did a port of Squeak to DOS back around 1.18. (I ran it a few times back then on my 486.) Probably still on a server somewhere.
Aaron Reichow wrote:
Hi!
This a call for old versions of Smalltalk. I used to have a couple of them, and feeling the urge to see if they work in DOSbox on OS X, I having tried in vain to find them. I did find my copy of Smalltalk/ V 3.0 for DOS and use a computer at my wife's work for this purpose to copy files off the 5.25" disks, and it works! This is a graphical version of Smalltalk for DOS that doesn't work well in DOSbox, perhaps problems with EGA drivers or something. But I did have another version of Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text windows, though I can't remember the precise name/version of the software- Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?
Anyway, if you have a copy of this, could you please send it my way?
In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk for various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love to see a real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for instance. Please email me if you can help me out with this!
Regards, Aaron
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Aaron Reichow -
Blake -
David Mitchell -
Franz Josef Konrad -
Jecel Assumpcao Jr -
Jon Hylands -
Klaus D. Witzel -
Sam Adams -
Steve Burbeck -
tim Rowledge