Hi Thierry, indeed, the breadth and depth of all the Squeak projects and code out there is truly massive and intimidating.
One thing that has helped me grok others code and my own is having improved the productivity of the tools for code exploration. The Hierachy Browser and Tracing Messages Browser have served me well for years for this. You can load Tracing Messages Browser from SqueakSource for 3.9 or SqueakMap for 3.8 or earlier. There are certainly other tools too, but the point is I've noticed how many new (and some veteran!) Squeakers have developed a habit of using only Package Browsers and then scrolling and clicking around in those to browse and edit code.
And, sadly, this obsession with Package Browsers has gotten worse in 3.9 because you can't even make Hierarchy Browser the default anymore! Its really boggling at how difficult it is to simply focus on the *class-model* instead of always just the package-organization.. So I usually find 3.8 better for groking code (at least until I get time to fix up 3.9)..
There is one other small enhancement that has, in my dev image, paid good dividends. "Code Editor Enhancements" on SqueakMap allow me to browse *from* anywhere I might be, *to* anywhere I could logically want to go from that place. Like, if I'm viewing a method, update: aCustomer, I can double-click the text, "aCustomer", press a hot key, and the Customer hierarchy opens up..
The idea is by being able to navigate quickly without having to hunt, scroll, click, click, scroll, and click, my train of thought is not disrupted and I digest code much more quickly.
I think your idea about a skeleton application with base "user/role" functionality is a good one; seems like most applications have that doesn't it?
Cheers, Chris
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:03:44 -0700 From: "Thierry Thelliez" thierry.thelliez.tech@gmail.com Subject: [Setools] Gjallar: extracting features To: goran@krampe.se, "Software Engineering Tools for Squeak" setools@lists.squeakfoundation.org Message-ID: 42f5c4430702072203p18d8030ap518363bb180f19ce@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
For the last few days I have been trying to understand the Gjallar code. I like the Seaside-Magma approach. As mentioned somewhere else the code base could serve as an example for other applications. Trying to catchup with all this code is quite overwhelming.
From my point of view, it would be great to see a subset of the
application featuring just enought to have a user interface for the administrator role to login and create other users (different roles). The created users should be able to login/logout. This would be a great starting point to demonstrate several aspects including the Seaside-Magma approach. Most of the web applications I am interested in start with these features.
Just some thoughts. Thierry
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End of Setools Digest, Vol 9, Issue 2
Thanks a lot for your tips. Below are some comments:
You can load Tracing Messages Browser from SqueakSource for 3.9 or SqueakMap for 3.8 or earlier.
I am currently with a 3.9 image. Trying to install the Tracing Messages Browser I got an error: 'No installer found for package Tracing Messsages Browser'.
Too bad it sounds like something I had started to think about just few days ago!
There is one other small enhancement that has, in my dev image, paid good dividends. "Code Editor Enhancements" on SqueakMap
This one installed ok. Is the proper usage to highligh a term, then press 'shift' and right click (on Windows)?
I think your idea about a skeleton application with base "user/role" functionality is a good one; seems like most applications have that doesn't it?
I think it is a must if the goal is to achieve out of the box quick productivity. Especially against other options like: ROR, Django..
Thierry
Hi Chris,
Have you tried the OmniBrowser tools that come with 3.9?
I don't know Tracing Messages Browse, but it seems that the new OB sender/implementor inspectors do exactly this... Also, the classes in the selected category are displayed in a hierarchy.
It seems that people don't know these new tool very well although they are very cool and should be pushed further. There are still a few issues but after using them for a couple of months now, I wouldn't want to go back to the old ones.
Adrian
On Feb 9, 2007, at 04:20 , Chris Muller wrote:
Hi Thierry, indeed, the breadth and depth of all the Squeak projects and code out there is truly massive and intimidating.
One thing that has helped me grok others code and my own is having improved the productivity of the tools for code exploration. The Hierachy Browser and Tracing Messages Browser have served me well for years for this. You can load Tracing Messages Browser from SqueakSource for 3.9 or SqueakMap for 3.8 or earlier. There are certainly other tools too, but the point is I've noticed how many new (and some veteran!) Squeakers have developed a habit of using only Package Browsers and then scrolling and clicking around in those to browse and edit code.
And, sadly, this obsession with Package Browsers has gotten worse in 3.9 because you can't even make Hierarchy Browser the default anymore! Its really boggling at how difficult it is to simply focus on the *class-model* instead of always just the package-organization.. So I usually find 3.8 better for groking code (at least until I get time to fix up 3.9)..
There is one other small enhancement that has, in my dev image, paid good dividends. "Code Editor Enhancements" on SqueakMap allow me to browse *from* anywhere I might be, *to* anywhere I could logically want to go from that place. Like, if I'm viewing a method, update: aCustomer, I can double-click the text, "aCustomer", press a hot key, and the Customer hierarchy opens up..
The idea is by being able to navigate quickly without having to hunt, scroll, click, click, scroll, and click, my train of thought is not disrupted and I digest code much more quickly.
I think your idea about a skeleton application with base "user/role" functionality is a good one; seems like most applications have that doesn't it?
Cheers, Chris
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:03:44 -0700 From: "Thierry Thelliez" thierry.thelliez.tech@gmail.com Subject: [Setools] Gjallar: extracting features To: goran@krampe.se, "Software Engineering Tools for Squeak" setools@lists.squeakfoundation.org Message-ID: 42f5c4430702072203p18d8030ap518363bb180f19ce@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
For the last few days I have been trying to understand the Gjallar code. I like the Seaside-Magma approach. As mentioned somewhere else the code base could serve as an example for other applications. Trying to catchup with all this code is quite overwhelming.
From my point of view, it would be great to see a subset of the
application featuring just enought to have a user interface for the administrator role to login and create other users (different roles). The created users should be able to login/logout. This would be a great starting point to demonstrate several aspects including the Seaside-Magma approach. Most of the web applications I am interested in start with these features.
Just some thoughts. Thierry
Setools mailing list Setools@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/setools
End of Setools Digest, Vol 9, Issue 2
Setools mailing list Setools@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/setools
On 09.02.2007, at 09:23, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
And, sadly, this obsession with Package Browsers has gotten worse in 3.9 because you can't even make Hierarchy Browser the default anymore! Its really boggling at how difficult it is to simply focus on the *class-model* instead of always just the package-organization.. So I usually find 3.8 better for groking code (at least until I get time to fix up 3.9)..
The package browser is a *extremely* bad hack that sadly seduces a lot of poeple to use it (e.g. Croquet once was shipped with an opened packagebrowser...). It should have been removed years ago. We should have removed it in 3.9.
Do *never* use it. Maybe you set the package browser to be the default one? there is a menu item in the window menu of the browser to select a new default one.
I would suggest, like Adrian, to have a look at OmniBrowser... after using it for some time, you don't want to go back. And it is *extensible* and *documented* (soon: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/cgi-bin/scgbib.cgi/abstract=yes? Berg07b)
Our students are using it with great success for all their new tools and experiments.
Marcus
Hi Marcus,
Could you explain these comments? I really don't understand. I have not used the omni browser, but I find the package browser to be very useful. I use Monticello to organize my code so having the package centric view makes sense to me. I use Package as a starting point and the Hierarchy mostly when I find what I need.
What are you major concerns with Package Browser? What part seems like a hack to you? How does Omni deal with those issues?
Thank you, I'm very interested in your thoughts,
Ron Teitelbaum
From: Marcus Denker Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:09
On 09.02.2007, at 09:23, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
And, sadly, this obsession with Package Browsers has gotten worse in 3.9 because you can't even make Hierarchy Browser the default anymore! Its really boggling at how difficult it is to simply focus on the *class-model* instead of always just the package-organization.. So I usually find 3.8 better for groking code (at least until I get time to fix up 3.9)..
The package browser is a *extremely* bad hack that sadly seduces a lot of poeple to use it (e.g. Croquet once was shipped with an opened packagebrowser...). It should have been removed years ago. We should have removed it in 3.9.
Do *never* use it. Maybe you set the package browser to be the default one? there is a menu item in the window menu of the browser to select a new default one.
I would suggest, like Adrian, to have a look at OmniBrowser... after using it for some time, you don't want to go back. And it is *extensible* and *documented* (soon: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/cgi-bin/scgbib.cgi/abstract=yes? Berg07b)
Our students are using it with great success for all their new tools and experiments.
Marcus
setools@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Adrian Lienhard -
Chris Muller -
Marcus Denker -
Ron Teitelbaum -
Thierry Thelliez