Joseph Pelrine jpelrine@acm.org wrote:
At 18:05 02.06.2001 , danielv@netvision.net.il wrote:
Joseph Pelrine jpelrine@acm.org wrote:
You're right, modularity is not everything, but it's a big step in the right direction. If you want to check out some good reference sources, start out by reading
[snip yummy references]
More recent work can be found in Gamma et al.'s Paper on TeamStreams, presented at XP 2000 (I'm not sure whether there's a web link to it),
I think this is it - http://www.xp2001.org/papers/Chapter9-Lippert+alii.pdf
Definitely not that paper! I don't know what those guys think they're doing, but it ain't XP.
Why not?
However, they have a reference to Gamma et al.'s paper in there.
Yup, that (and being in XP200X) is what tricked me. My bad.
I miss having the RB and friends. One thing I missed in those was something telling me my code is too complex - enter the HintingBrowser. Someday soon I hope to have all those together on one image with Celeste...
Huh? I use the RB all the time for my Squeak work. I even call it from SUnit to wrap quality control tests in my work. Contact Bob Hartwig - he did the port, and is doing the StSq version too.
Last time I looked, the Squeak port wasn't fun(ctioning). I tried in the StSq prerelease, and extract method (the smoke test) doesn't work. First codePane wasn't set to the TextMorph, after fixing that manually. The refactoring itself asserted in a case that should have worked. You're saying this should work?
- Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
Daniel
At 22:38 02.06.2001 , danielv@netvision.net.il wrote:
[snip]
More recent work can be found in Gamma et al.'s Paper on TeamStreams, presented at XP 2000 (I'm not sure whether there's a web link to it),
I think this is it - http://www.xp2001.org/papers/Chapter9-Lippert+alii.pdf
Definitely not that paper! I don't know what those guys think they're doing, but it ain't XP.
Why not?
I don't want to go into too much detail about it publicly. Essentially, they're the first of a hoard of carpetbaggers, such as we've seen hit Smalltalk in the early-mid 90's, and Java in the past years. They're just using XP as a buzzword to sell some tool they've invented. Mind you' I didn't hear their presentation, as I was on a panel happening at the same time, but I read the papers, and asked two colleagues of mine, who were there. Their comments:
"Two examples for very bad talks were given by the group around Züllighoven. Two guys gave two talks about how they extended their JWAM approach do something that is very but not completely different from XP. One of the guys started to draw a meaningless chart saying, this is the cost curve for change over time as suggested by Kent. He then went on to say that sometimes the cost curve was more like that, drawing another meaningless line. He then drew some meaningless consequences from that observation but wasn't able to explain when one or the other cost curve apply, what the reason for this strange behavior was or anything at all, in fact.
The other guy explained how they are not using the planning game and not using proper iterations, and how they used a proprietary tool to not do that. Both JWAN guys wasted a couple of minutes of their precious speaking time to introduce us to the exact same company they're woking for, and how they had called done six XP projects. From what they said, there was strong evidence they were not nearly doing anything like XP, however... "
However, they have a reference to Gamma et al.'s paper in there.
Yup, that (and being in XP200X) is what tricked me. My bad.
You'll find the paper in the proceedings of XP2K, greedily published by AWL as "Extreme Programming Examined" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201710404/ref=sim_books/102-1709811- 4971362
Huh? I use the RB all the time for my Squeak work. I even call it from SUnit to wrap quality control tests in my work. Contact Bob Hartwig - he did the port, and is doing the StSq version too.
Last time I looked, the Squeak port wasn't fun(ctioning). I tried in the StSq prerelease, and extract method (the smoke test) doesn't work. First codePane wasn't set to the TextMorph, after fixing that manually. The refactoring itself asserted in a case that should have worked. You're saying this should work?
Sure. I remember hitting one bug once, but that's about it. The stuff that works works. That's what I like about the XP approach - cut back on scope, not quality. I always prefer to have limited functionality working correctly than have lots of half-wired stuff.
The RB got shoehorned into the StSq "release" (if you can call it that). Bob is going to do the cleanup and integration for it Real Soon Now (are you out there listening, Bob?). -- - Joseph Pelrine [ | ] Daedalos Consulting Email: jpelrine@acm.org Web: www.daedalos.com/~j_pelrine
Smalltalk - scene and not herd!
Last time I looked, the Squeak port wasn't fun(ctioning). I tried in the StSq prerelease, and extract method (the smoke test) doesn't work. First codePane wasn't set to the TextMorph, after fixing that manually. The refactoring itself asserted in a case that should have worked. You're saying this should work?
The entire engine is working and tested, both in a vanilla Squeak 2.7 image, and in the StSq image. There are a few minor problems with getting the SUnit suite to greenlight in Squeak 3.1 alpha, but that's almost there too.
The UI is a different story. Mark Schwenk, Michael Hewner, Doug Way, and I have done quite a bit of chipping away at the UI as we've found the time, overriding Browser (see the RB class, or evaluate RB openBrowser ) and shoehorning the refactorings one at a time. We've implemented a Smalllint shell (evaluate LintDialog open). We have also implemented rudimentary editors for the BrowserEnvironments, so you can see the results of Smalllint runs, but they are a bit cheesy.
So the RB works, but it's integration with the browser isn't complete yet. I noticed that a few things that were working in vanilla Squeak (BTW, what is our term for non-StSq Squeak?) are broken in StSq. Extract method was one of them. Mark Schwenk and I will likely be cleaning these things up in due time.
-Bob
squeakfoundation@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Bob Hartwig -
danielv＠netvision.net.il -
Joseph Pelrine