Here's my second initial project proposal, mostly triggered by the meeting with Paul.
The first project must be a no-brainer, reasonably easy to implement, and a test of the (initial) environment. I propose CVS/Sourceforge, I know it's not optimal for St projects but it is there, it works, and we can use it to bootstrap up to a Squeak-specific SCM system.
Proposal:
Calling SqC's hand on SqF cooperation, I propose that we put the VM plus a very minimal core class library on SourceForge, and call that the official Squeak reference implementation.
Rationale:
As Paul indicated in his notes on our conversation, there are lots of parallels between Squeak and Linux - as Linux is tremendously succesful, we might just as well learn from it :-).
Both systems are an operating system, and both are applicable in a very broad range, both horizontally (from iPAQ to "SqueakNOS for System/390 ;-)") and vertically ("BusinessSqueak", "SchoolSqueak", ...). Like Linux, a worthwhile model could be to define a very basic core (kernel, libraries) and have third parties build distributions on top of that with added value. So a BusinessSqueak could be core+networking+Glorp+Swazoo (with a competing one core+networking+Comanche+SMS), a SchoolSqueak would have Morphic and eToys, etcetera. Keep in mind, that's the general direction I think it useful, the first step I propose here is just a very minimal first step. A side effect of this operation is that we force the issue of modularity.
Squeak-Core (as I propose to name this bit) would define the de-facto standard, which automatically opens up a clear, minimal target for competing and/or platform-optimized implementations. The first work, apart from maybe some refactoring, could be to write unit tests for this core so that alternative implementations could be validated.
The "Calling SqC's hand" terminology I used above is in response to Dan's message indicating SqC's support for the SqF effort ("great, Dan - prove it" ;-)). Handing over the responsibility for the core to the community and pledging to cooperate on this bit would make this support very concrete. As it would be a extremely minimal bit of Squeak, it is very likely to consist of very stable code so that the impact on SqC day-to-day operations is likely to be small. That helps us to focus on procedures around SqC/SqF cooperation, roles, responsibilities.
Goal:
Produce Squeak-Core v1.0 on SourceForge.
Steps:
- (in parallel with the other steps) setup a mailing list where we can discuss the scope of Squeak-Core (probably VMConstruction plus stripped-down versions of Kernel, ST80, Collections, System - the goal is to have stuff in Core that must be present everywhere, no matter what the size of the platform or the application).
- Setup a SourceForge project or adopt an existing one for this goal.
- Setup a self-contained CVS changeset with some extra bits of code so that e.g. the Help menu is extended with SourceForge CVS interactions ("update code from SourceForge", "commit code to SourceForge", "send patches to Squeak-Core project mailing list", etcetera).
- Take a code cut and stash it into SourceForge. Call it "1.0.0".
- Start a machinery like the linux kernel machinery: Squeak-Core 1.1.x is hacking, alpha, unstable, when there's a nice set of new features start stabilizing until a version can be called 1.2.0 which is the next "official" release, etcetera.
Here's my second initial project proposal, mostly triggered by the meeting with Paul.
The first project must be a no-brainer, reasonably easy to implement, and a test of the (initial) environment. I propose CVS/Sourceforge, I know it's not optimal for St projects but it is there, it works, and we can use it to bootstrap up to a Squeak-specific SCM system.
Proposal:
Calling SqC's hand on SqF cooperation, I propose that we put the VM plus a very minimal core class library on SourceForge, and call that the official
Squeak reference implementation.
I should point out I'm in the middle of helping Tim move the macintosh source code to VMMaker. As part of this the source code in the image is going out into flat files, and of course the logic is going in to let one build any variety of VM based on that tree. Once the files are in a directory structure then you can use CVS to manage it or what ever you wish. First though is getting all the files in a manageable form. Hopefully I'll have this done by the end of the week.
Hi foundation fellows!
--- Cees de Groot cg@cdegroot.com wrote:
Here's my second initial project proposal, mostly triggered by the meeting with Paul.
The first project must be a no-brainer, reasonably easy to implement, and a test of the (initial) environment. I propose CVS/Sourceforge, I know it's not optimal for St projects but it is there, it works, and we can use it to bootstrap up to a Squeak-specific SCM system.
When it comes to using CVS with Squeak Martin Kobetic is your man. :-) He is one of the CVSTProj members and he has done most of the fully functional CVS integration in VW/Squeak/Dolphin (but not the ports). Personally I have focused on the client/server protocol and that is not yet ready - but it might show up soon in Stable Squeak, who knows. Stable Squeak has as a semiofficial goal to be able to use CVS as a storage backend for the repository mechanisms.
Proposal:
Calling SqC's hand on SqF cooperation, I propose that we put the VM plus a very minimal core class library on SourceForge, and call that the official Squeak reference implementation.
My small revision to this proposal would be to start with focusing on the VMs and plugins and waiting a second with the "image"/class libraries. That will be a good chunk of work anyway since there are a whole range of ports. This way we might also get some good timing with the very imminent first "release" of Stable Squeak. More below.
Rationale:
As Paul indicated in his notes on our conversation, there are lots of parallels between Squeak and Linux - as Linux is tremendously succesful, we might just as well learn from it :-).
Both systems are an operating system, and both are applicable in a very broad range, both horizontally (from iPAQ to "SqueakNOS for System/390 ;-)") and vertically ("BusinessSqueak", "SchoolSqueak", ...). Like Linux, a worthwhile model could be to define a very basic core (kernel, libraries) and have third parties build distributions on top of that with added value. So a BusinessSqueak could be core+networking+Glorp+Swazoo (with a competing one core+networking+Comanche+SMS), a SchoolSqueak would have Morphic and eToys, etcetera. Keep in mind, that's the general direction I think it useful, the first step I propose here is just a very minimal first step. A side effect of this operation is that we force the issue of modularity.
Modularity is one - or should I say - THE main focus of the work being done in Stable Squeak. As my teaser for the next article said - StSq has an ENVY-killer in the making... Tremendously interesting.
Squeak-Core (as I propose to name this bit) would define the de-facto standard, which automatically opens up a clear, minimal target for competing and/or platform-optimized implementations. The first work, apart from maybe some refactoring, could be to write unit tests for this core so that alternative implementations could be validated.
These actions that you describe are exactly what StSq has been doing. They have broken down a minimal image with refactorings and written a whole bunch of unit tests for it.
The "Calling SqC's hand" terminology I used above is in response to Dan's message indicating SqC's support for the SqF effort ("great, Dan - prove it" ;-)). Handing over the responsibility for the core to the community and pledging to cooperate on this bit would make this support very concrete. As it would be a extremely minimal bit of Squeak, it is very likely to consist of very stable code so that the impact on SqC day-to-day operations is likely to be small. That helps us to focus on procedures around SqC/SqF cooperation, roles, responsibilities.
Goal:
Produce Squeak-Core v1.0 on SourceForge.
Steps:
- (in parallel with the other steps) setup a mailing list where we can discuss
the scope of Squeak-Core (probably VMConstruction plus stripped-down versions of Kernel, ST80, Collections, System - the goal is to have stuff in Core that must be present everywhere, no matter what the size of the platform or the application).
Why not just merge this mailinglist with the (nonexistant) "Stable Squeak mailinglist"? StSq is in dire need of one and I have been very close to setting one up - I have installed mailman but I haven't gotten around configuring it. You have done that so could you set one up? StSq would be grateful - right now we just have an alias "stsq@bluefish.se" which points to a bunch of people - a list is better and the connection with SqF should be good. StSq and SqF needs to "connect" I believe.
- Setup a SourceForge project or adopt an existing one for this goal.
There is one that was setup for the VM I think. I believe Stefan Rudlof did that a while ago and there was some heated discussion about it involving Andreas Raab and Ian Piumarta I believe - can't remember the issues though - but it sort of didn't catch on since Andreas and Ian did not really "support" it. (My memory may not server me right...)
- Setup a self-contained CVS changeset with some extra bits of code so that
e.g. the Help menu is extended with SourceForge CVS interactions ("update code from SourceForge", "commit code to SourceForge", "send patches to Squeak-Core project mailing list", etcetera).
Ok, this is where CVSTProj comes in. That project IS hosted on SF right now - go and take a look. The code is fully functioning and Martin Kobetic is the guys who knows the most of it. But it uses an external executable CVS right now. A coming version would use my protocol implementation but we haven't gotten there yet.
Take a code cut and stash it into SourceForge. Call it "1.0.0".
Start a machinery like the linux kernel machinery: Squeak-Core 1.1.x is
hacking, alpha, unstable, when there's a nice set of new features start stabilizing until a version can be called 1.2.0 which is the next "official" release, etcetera.
These things has been discussed at lenght on the Squeak ML. But I do not remember the results! :-)
As a sidenote - we are setting up a public new Swiki for StSq later today in preparation for the coming release.
If anyone is thinking of taking action on these things described above - do get in contact with StSq first (using stsq@bluefish.se for now) and check out what already is done!
regards, G�ran
PS. I am sort of taking the role of StSq-nag-person, the guy nagging everybody... :-) DS
===== G�ran Hultgren, goran.hultgren@bluefish.se icq#:6136722, GSM: +46 70 3933950, http://www.bluefish.se "Department of Redundancy department." -- ThinkGeek
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Göran
I don't think that it would be a good idea to merge this list with the StableSqueak one. There's a lot of talk here about things that really don't interest me (in fact, I'm probably going to unsubscribe today), written by people who (as you can see from your answers below) have no real idea or interest in our work.
Just my SFR 3 (about 2 cents). Joseph
At 08:37 28.05.2001 , Göran" Hultgren wrote:
Hi foundation fellows!
--- Cees de Groot cg@cdegroot.com wrote:
Here's my second initial project proposal, mostly triggered by the meeting with Paul.
The first project must be a no-brainer, reasonably easy to implement,
and a
test of the (initial) environment. I propose CVS/Sourceforge, I know
it's not
optimal for St projects but it is there, it works, and we can use it to bootstrap up to a Squeak-specific SCM system.
When it comes to using CVS with Squeak Martin Kobetic is your man. :-) He is one of the CVSTProj members and he has done most of the fully functional CVS integration in VW/Squeak/Dolphin (but not the ports). Personally I have focused on the client/server protocol and that is not yet ready - but it might show up soon in Stable Squeak, who knows. Stable Squeak has as a semiofficial goal to be able to use CVS as a storage backend for the repository mechanisms.
Proposal:
Calling SqC's hand on SqF cooperation, I propose that we put the VM plus a very minimal core class library on SourceForge, and call that the official Squeak reference implementation.
My small revision to this proposal would be to start with focusing on the VMs and plugins and waiting a second with the "image"/class libraries. That will be a good chunk of work anyway since there are a whole range of ports. This way we might also get some good timing with the very imminent first "release" of Stable Squeak. More below.
Rationale:
As Paul indicated in his notes on our conversation, there are lots of parallels between Squeak and Linux - as Linux is tremendously
succesful, we
might just as well learn from it :-).
Both systems are an operating system, and both are applicable in a very
broad
range, both horizontally (from iPAQ to "SqueakNOS for System/390 ;-)") and vertically ("BusinessSqueak", "SchoolSqueak", ...). Like Linux, a
worthwhile
model could be to define a very basic core (kernel, libraries) and have
third
parties build distributions on top of that with added value. So a BusinessSqueak could be core+networking+Glorp+Swazoo (with a competing one core+networking+Comanche+SMS), a SchoolSqueak would have Morphic and
eToys,
etcetera. Keep in mind, that's the general direction I think it useful,
the
first step I propose here is just a very minimal first step. A side
effect of
this operation is that we force the issue of modularity.
Modularity is one - or should I say - THE main focus of the work being done in Stable Squeak. As my teaser for the next article said - StSq has an ENVY-killer in the making... Tremendously interesting.
Squeak-Core (as I propose to name this bit) would define the de-facto standard, which automatically opens up a clear, minimal target for
competing
and/or platform-optimized implementations. The first work, apart from
maybe
some refactoring, could be to write unit tests for this core so that alternative implementations could be validated.
These actions that you describe are exactly what StSq has been doing. They have broken down a minimal image with refactorings and written a whole bunch of unit tests for it.
The "Calling SqC's hand" terminology I used above is in response to Dan's message indicating SqC's support for the SqF effort ("great, Dan -
prove it"
;-)). Handing over the responsibility for the core to the community and pledging to cooperate on this bit would make this support very
concrete. As it
would be a extremely minimal bit of Squeak, it is very likely to
consist of
very stable code so that the impact on SqC day-to-day operations is
likely to
be small. That helps us to focus on procedures around SqC/SqF cooperation, roles, responsibilities.
Goal:
Produce Squeak-Core v1.0 on SourceForge.
Steps:
- (in parallel with the other steps) setup a mailing list where we can
discuss
the scope of Squeak-Core (probably VMConstruction plus stripped-down
versions
of Kernel, ST80, Collections, System - the goal is to have stuff in
Core that
must be present everywhere, no matter what the size of the platform or the application).
Why not just merge this mailinglist with the (nonexistant) "Stable Squeak mailinglist"? StSq is in dire need of one and I have been very close to setting one up - I have installed mailman but I haven't gotten around configuring it. You have done that so could you set one up? StSq would be grateful - right now we just have an alias "stsq@bluefish.se" which points to a bunch of people - a list is better and the connection with SqF should be good. StSq and SqF needs to "connect" I believe.
- Setup a SourceForge project or adopt an existing one for this goal.
There is one that was setup for the VM I think. I believe Stefan Rudlof did that a while ago and there was some heated discussion about it involving Andreas Raab and Ian Piumarta I believe - can't remember the issues though - but it sort of didn't catch on since Andreas and Ian did not really "support" it. (My memory may not server me right...)
- Setup a self-contained CVS changeset with some extra bits of code so
that
e.g. the Help menu is extended with SourceForge CVS interactions
("update code
from SourceForge", "commit code to SourceForge", "send patches to
Squeak-Core
project mailing list", etcetera).
Ok, this is where CVSTProj comes in. That project IS hosted on SF right now - go and take a look. The code is fully functioning and Martin Kobetic is the guys who knows the most of it. But it uses an external executable CVS right now. A coming version would use my protocol implementation but we haven't gotten there yet.
Take a code cut and stash it into SourceForge. Call it "1.0.0".
Start a machinery like the linux kernel machinery: Squeak-Core 1.1.x is
hacking, alpha, unstable, when there's a nice set of new features start stabilizing until a version can be called 1.2.0 which is the next
"official"
release, etcetera.
These things has been discussed at lenght on the Squeak ML. But I do not remember the results! :-)
As a sidenote - we are setting up a public new Swiki for StSq later today in preparation for the coming release.
If anyone is thinking of taking action on these things described above - do get in contact with StSq first (using stsq@bluefish.se for now) and check out what already is done!
regards, Göran
PS. I am sort of taking the role of StSq-nag-person, the guy nagging everybody... :-) DS
===== Göran Hultgren, goran.hultgren@bluefish.se icq#:6136722, GSM: +46 70 3933950, http://www.bluefish.se "Department of Redundancy department." -- ThinkGeek
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Squeakfoundation mailing list Squeakfoundation@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/squeakfoundation
-- - Joseph Pelrine [ | ] Daedalos Consulting Email: jpelrine@acm.org Web: www.daedalos.com/~j_pelrine
Smalltalk - scene and not herd!
Hi all!
--- Joseph Pelrine jpelrine@acm.org wrote:
G�ran
I don't think that it would be a good idea to merge this list with the StableSqueak one. There's a lot of talk here about things that really don't interest me (in fact, I'm probably going to unsubscribe today), written by people who (as you can see from your answers below) have no real idea or interest in our work.
Point taken - SqF and StSq do "overlap" in interests but are definitely not the same in other respects (StSq more technical and SqF more... political, if you all mind the expression :-))!
But I was thinking of merging with the list that Cees proposed to set up about producing a core - not the current list. Or do you think we should have our own anyway?
Just my SFR 3 (about 2 cents).
:-) regards, G�ran
Included below the part about the lists:
[megasnip]
Steps:
- (in parallel with the other steps) setup a mailing list where we can
discuss
the scope of Squeak-Core (probably VMConstruction plus stripped-down
versions
of Kernel, ST80, Collections, System - the goal is to have stuff in
Core that
must be present everywhere, no matter what the size of the platform or the application).
Why not just merge this mailinglist with the (nonexistant) "Stable Squeak mailinglist"? StSq is in dire need of one and I have been very close to setting one up - I have installed mailman but I haven't gotten around configuring it. You have done that so could you set one up? StSq would be grateful - right now we just have an alias "stsq@bluefish.se" which points to a bunch of people - a list is better and the connection with SqF should be good. StSq and SqF needs to "connect" I believe.
===== G�ran Hultgren, goran.hultgren@bluefish.se icq#:6136722, GSM: +46 70 3933950, http://www.bluefish.se "Department of Redundancy department." -- ThinkGeek
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gohu@rocketmail.com said:
Why not just merge this mailinglist with the (nonexistant) "Stable Squeak mailinglist"?
[and other indicators that there's synergy in the air...]
Yeah, why not?
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/stablesqueak
(even though I don't like the name "StableSqueak" - it suggests too much that everything not labelled StableSqueak is of Microsoft quality. But I'll probably subscribe to the StSq list and fight you guys on that over there ;-)).
Wanna have a Swiki with it? http://swiki.squeakfoundation.org/stablesqueak
So, SqF is alive and kicking and just adopted it's first project?
Regards,
Cees
Hi all!
--- Cees de Groot cg@cdegroot.com wrote:
gohu@rocketmail.com said:
Why not just merge this mailinglist with the (nonexistant) "Stable Squeak mailinglist"?
[and other indicators that there's synergy in the air...]
Yeah, why not?
Ok, there it is guys!
There was some arguments about this list before but I think that stemmed from the misunderstanding that we where going to merge with the SqF list. So... if everybody is ok with it then you just send me an email that you have "jumped" over to that list and I will remove you from the alias. If there is anything coming in at the alias I will forward that to the list.
I will wait with joining the list myself until I hear that StSq is ok with utilizing the list instead of our alias - guys?
(even though I don't like the name "StableSqueak" - it suggests too much that everything not labelled StableSqueak is of Microsoft quality. But I'll probably subscribe to the StSq list and fight you guys on that over there ;-)).
Yeah, the name issue is something that... well, it will just have to wait! :-) StSq is as a project name at least rather "burnt in" now.
Wanna have a Swiki with it? http://swiki.squeakfoundation.org/stablesqueak
We already have two of those actually! :-) But hey, our newly creted public one hasn't been used yet so perhaps we should take this offer - it does have a better url. And SqF will probably see to that links are made to it from www.squeak.org/www.squeakfoundation.org etc., right Cees?
Again I bounce it over to the rest of StSq, should we take the offer guys?
So, SqF is alive and kicking and just adopted it's first project?
Well, let me just raise a tiny flag here and be very, VERY frank - and I am only venting my OWN thoughts here - others in StSq may disagree. <Asbest suit on>
We in StSq aim for a very concrete goal - a solid Squeak. Pragmatism is our name and delivering is our goal. (he, cool sentence there...) John Sarkela is our current "tour guide" and he has the final say on StSq just like Linus has on the Linux kernel. It is a kind of "dictatorship is good as long as you trust the dictator to be able to make the best decisions". And we do that in StSq much in the same way as SqC trusts Dan.
My initial impression of SqF is admittedly mixed - there are some good stuff being done - for example your own crusade to build an infrastructure with lists/swikis etc. and the goal of SqF is good (even though I personally (no pun intended) object to the word "personal" in the declaration... :-). And I think SqF is needed and SqC is approaching it in a good way I think.
But there has also been... well, IMVHO a lot of fruitless discussion in SqF. In the OpenSource world action and source talks. I want to see SqF as a strong group of people being concrete and pragmatic bringing some "neutral ground" to the community. I do not want to see it become a philosophy discussion club. Harsh words, I know, but that is what I feel!
So... as long as SqF realize that StSq is all about making Squeak better and that technical skill will do the talking (as always in an OpenSource project) we gladly "join" the SqF effort as a project under its "blessing". But StSq will make its own decisions based on the people involved in working with it.
<Asbest suit off>
So... (phew) having said that - my proposal is that people in SqF interested in StSq joins the newly created list... that we haven't really accepted yet of course... Darn! :-) Anyway, if and when we accept the list and jump over there, THEN we can take it from there. ;-)
Regards,
Cees
regards, G�ran
===== G�ran Hultgren, goran.hultgren@bluefish.se icq#:6136722, GSM: +46 70 3933950, http://www.bluefish.se "Department of Redundancy department." -- ThinkGeek
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But there has also been... well, IMVHO a lot of fruitless discussion in
SqF. In the OpenSource
world action and source talks.
Agreed.
For that reason I think that the debate about unreleased code is "fruitless discussion" (as long as it is not released). To adopt an almost secret forking project would neither help SqF nor Squeak.
Andreas
Hi Andreas!
--- Andreas Kuckartz a.kuckartz@dokom.net wrote:
But there has also been... well, IMVHO a lot of fruitless discussion in
SqF. In the OpenSource
world action and source talks.
Agreed.
For that reason I think that the debate about unreleased code is "fruitless discussion" (as long as it is not released). To adopt an almost secret forking project would neither help SqF nor Squeak.
I agree fully Andreas - but I think that problem is being solved as we speak - there is no real "secrecy" here - just a couple of guys that want something to work before they release it to too many people. And do note that there has been voices being raised even from SqC that a release may be unfortunate as it would be thought of as a fork - see below.
As things stand today there will be no forking - the current scenario is that the StSq release coming very shortly (a matter of days) will be labeled in such a way that people understand that it is a testbed for stuff going into Squeak 3.2 and NOT a fork.
And BTW - I have had no problem getting my hands on the prerelease as I got involved in the project. Would you like to help? I can send you the url for the prerelease if you like. Do you want to join the project? I can add you to the current email alias too (though we might be moving to a list hosted at SqF shortly).
My summary of it all is that I personally think a release should have been made earlier - but I respect the fact that there has been reasons for not releasing yet.
regards, G�ran
===== G�ran Hultgren, goran.hultgren@bluefish.se icq#:6136722, GSM: +46 70 3933950, http://www.bluefish.se "Department of Redundancy department." -- ThinkGeek
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a.kuckartz@dokom.net said:
To adopt an almost secret forking project would neither help SqF nor Squeak.
Oh it will, very much even. It'll bring things out in the open, make sure they can be found, and thus - if necessary - criticized. By collecting as many projects under the umbrella of SqF without any kind of central committee deciding what's good and what's not, we create a marketplace where the community can vote with contributions what's good and what's not.
"Göran Hultgren" wrote:
But there has also been... well, IMVHO a lot of fruitless discussion in SqF. In the OpenSource world action and source talks. I want to see SqF as a strong group of people being concrete and pragmatic bringing some "neutral ground" to the community. I do not want to see it become a philosophy discussion club. Harsh words, I know, but that is what I feel!
Please don't let my comments turn you off from the Squeak Foundation. It is obvious by now my position is a minority one, so in the absence of positive feedback, I'll be shutting up on these issues in this forum.
It is obvious most people on the SqF list have a certain practical vision of what they want SqF to do and how they want it to operate. I would not want to stand in the way of this group accomplishing what positive things it can.
-Paul Fernhout Kurtz-Fernhout Software ========================================================= Developers of custom software and educational simulations Creators of the Garden with Insight(TM) garden simulator http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com
Hi All!
--- Paul Fernhout pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com wrote:
"G�ran Hultgren" wrote:
But there has also been... well, IMVHO a lot of fruitless discussion in SqF. In the OpenSource world action and source talks. I want to see SqF as a strong group of people being concrete
and
pragmatic bringing some "neutral ground" to the community. I do not want to see it become a philosophy discussion club. Harsh words, I know, but that is what I feel!
Please don't let my comments turn you off from the Squeak Foundation. It
No problem! :-) And don't let me turn you off either! :-)
is obvious by now my position is a minority one, so in the absence of positive feedback, I'll be shutting up on these issues in this forum.
Honestly, I did not have any particular individual in mind when I wrote that and I can't say I really know "your position". I just found a lot of "meta discussion" reading the archives that may be interesting to some but just not to me.
It is obvious most people on the SqF list have a certain practical vision of what they want SqF to do and how they want it to operate. I would not want to stand in the way of this group accomplishing what positive things it can.
IMHO all voices are good voices as long as something concrete is done TOO. Right?
regards, G�ran
===== G�ran Hultgren, goran.hultgren@bluefish.se icq#:6136722, GSM: +46 70 3933950, http://www.bluefish.se "Department of Redundancy department." -- ThinkGeek
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pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com said:
Please don't let my comments turn you off from the Squeak Foundation. It is obvious by now my position is a minority one, so in the absence of positive feedback, I'll be shutting up on these issues in this forum.
It's probably the sheer volume of what you wrote that triggered the absence of positive feedback. I for one haven't had the time to work through it yet :-)
gohu@rocketmail.com said:
But there has also been... well, IMVHO a lot of fruitless discussion in SqF. In the OpenSource world action and source talks.
A bunch of blind horses with an enormous amount of source code won't get anywhere. I think these discussions have been very fruitful because it has made a lot clearer (what we want to be, and where we want to go), although I really hope we (SqF) can have an IRL in Essen this summer - a one hour chat is better than 5Mb of mailing list archives...
Of course, some of the horses aren't at all blind ....
Cheers,
Alan
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At 7:03 PM +0200 5/29/01, Cees de Groot wrote:
gohu@rocketmail.com said:
But there has also been... well, IMVHO a lot of fruitless discussion in SqF. In the OpenSource world action and source talks.
A bunch of blind horses with an enormous amount of source code won't get anywhere. I think these discussions have been very fruitful because it has made a lot clearer (what we want to be, and where we want to go), although I really hope we (SqF) can have an IRL in Essen this summer - a one hour chat is better than 5Mb of mailing list archives...
-- Cees de Groot http://www.cdegroot.com cg@cdegroot.com GnuPG 1024D/E0989E8B 0016 F679 F38D 5946 4ECD 1986 F303 937F E098 9E8B
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