Hi Goran and all
goran.hultgren@bluefish.se wrote:
And: A list of open issues and major known bugs is surely a useful tool for guiding a development process.
Indeed. Would you mind setting one up? I have made offers earlier in this regard but will keep my focus on SM. (Hint: The guides aren't SqC. We are not intended to do the work *for* the community.)
I'm interested in looking at your offers. It would help me if you could post the links to them. A quick look (10 min) at the titles your last 300 posts of this list does not show anything like that. (including http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/squeakfoundation)
And the list on http://swiki.squeakfoundation.org/squeakfoundation/88 is not terribly maintained. Last change 19-DEC-02.
How do you think volunteers can notice possible tasks they could help if they don't preceive them? We are not computers. Just writing something in the body of an email somewhere does not get noticed.
BTW The high number of your post shows an incredible energy and enthusiasm. Thanks a lot! But wouldn't it be an idea for every 20th email you write to update *one* swiki page on www.squeakfoundation.org and point people to them from time to time (e.g. once every month)?
So much energy / knowhow and person-hours are available for bringing Squeak foward, but for reasons I'm not yet fully aware of a lot of this energy dissipates unused because of poor follow ups.
-- Hannes
P.S. Perhaps somebody could write an opportunity statement regarding this. I'll try to make up my mind of this as well.
Hi Hannes and all!
Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel.squeaklist@bluewin.ch wrote:
Hi Goran and all
goran.hultgren@bluefish.se wrote:
And: A list of open issues and major known bugs is surely a useful tool for guiding a development process.
Indeed. Would you mind setting one up? I have made offers earlier in this regard but will keep my focus on SM. (Hint: The guides aren't SqC. We are not intended to do the work *for* the community.)
I'm interested in looking at your offers. It would help me if you could post the links to them.
A quick look (10 min) at the titles your last 300 posts of this list does not show anything like that. (including http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/squeakfoundation)
Well, that is because it was back in october/november 2001. About 2000 emails ago. Christ. :-)
And the list on http://swiki.squeakfoundation.org/squeakfoundation/88 is not terribly maintained. Last change 19-DEC-02.
I am not sure what that list has got to do with this? That is a list of roles that people have taken on. Not a wishlist for people to sign up on.
How do you think volunteers can notice possible tasks they could help if they don't preceive them? We are not computers.
No, we are humans. Humans communicate. Exactly what are you "accusing" me of here? Not telling volunteers what they can do? Not writing down a list somewhere what they can do?
There are tons of places on both the Squeak Swiki and also the SqF swiki where there are needs listed.
And needs are almost daily communicated on these two mailing lists. The need for good bug tracking is not new, we have had it for years.
Just writing something in the body of an email somewhere does not get noticed.
Duh.
BTW The high number of your post shows an incredible energy and enthusiasm.
Yes.
Thanks a lot! But wouldn't it be an idea for every 20th email you write to update *one* swiki page on www.squeakfoundation.org and point people to them from time to time (e.g. once every month)?
Well, personally I am not too fond of Swikis exploding into a jungle of old pages. Secondly I don't want the SqF swiki to compete with the Squeak Swiki so it should be kept small and to the point. Thirdly... I am at a loss of words. You are actually telling me to update a Swiki page every 20 email?!?
So much energy / knowhow and person-hours are available for bringing Squeak foward, but for reasons I'm not yet fully aware of a lot of this energy dissipates unused because of poor follow ups.
There are tons of reasons. Not having everybody spewing out Swiki pages is IMHO not one of them. Not having a bug tracking system is one though, an important one. Discussing in which posting I offered to set one up is not one of them either.
Btw, Jitterbug is a simple webbased system that could possibly work but even though it does sound like he NIH-syndrome I actually think we could do better by building something integrated in Squeak - like SM. SM just didn't lift off until it was accessible from inside Squeak.
regards, Göran
goran.hultgren@bluefish.se wrote: [SNIP]
Btw, Jitterbug is a simple webbased system that could possibly work but even though it does sound like he NIH-syndrome I actually think we could do better by building something integrated in Squeak - like SM. SM just didn't lift off until it was accessible from inside Squeak.
What I mean with this is that I think (now 2 years later) an external webbased bug tracking system - no matter how simple (Jittebug is very simple for example) - would not turn out good. I think it would be better if we "cooked our own". Btw, Julian Fitzell probably has good ideas in this area too - I believe he told me that he had worked on one of the OSS tools in this area. (Personally I have installed/hacked and made Jitterbug work in a 12 developer company - but the needs where probably different from Squeak.)
Yes, it sounds really NIH-ish and not STTCPW either, but I think the importance of integration in the tools/image plus integration with SM and/or the new Harvesting tool is of extreme importance.
And in fact - the bug tracking system may very well *be* the new Harvesting tool, what do I know.
I just know that we need support for bug tracking and harvesting and both mechanisms should IMHO be package aware and integrated in the Squeak environment.
regards, Göran
Finally catching up on some list email...
On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 09:22 AM, goran.hultgren@bluefish.se wrote:
Hi Hannes and all!
Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel.squeaklist@bluewin.ch wrote:
...
And the list on http://swiki.squeakfoundation.org/squeakfoundation/88 is not terribly maintained. Last change 19-DEC-02.
I am not sure what that list has got to do with this? That is a list of roles that people have taken on. Not a wishlist for people to sign up on.
To make things a bit clearer, I just added some text this page saying: "If you have a strong interest in volunteering for a role (that is not already listed here or under Guide roles), please post to the Foundation Mailing List first to make your interest known."
I think that's a reasonable way to handle things. After discussion it can be determined whether the proposed role makes sense, whether someone else is already doing it, etc.
So much energy / knowhow and person-hours are available for bringing Squeak foward, but for reasons I'm not yet fully aware of a lot of this energy dissipates unused because of poor follow ups.
There are tons of reasons. Not having everybody spewing out Swiki pages is IMHO not one of them. Not having a bug tracking system is one though, an important one. Discussing in which posting I offered to set one up is not one of them either.
Btw, Jitterbug is a simple webbased system that could possibly work but even though it does sound like he NIH-syndrome I actually think we could do better by building something integrated in Squeak - like SM. SM just didn't lift off until it was accessible from inside Squeak.
Absolutely. For a lot of things it doesn't make much sense to "reinvent the wheel", but with something like SqueakMap or a bug/bugfix tracking/harvesting system, the benefits for integrating closely with Squeak are too great too ignore. Plus a bug tracking system is not a particularly difficult wheel to reinvent. :-)
- Doug Way
squeakfoundation@lists.squeakfoundation.org