Which again raises the question:
what ever happened to the new all dancing and singing download page Andreas proposed a while ago?
I'm gonna raise this issue every time people trying to run Squeak on Linux have problems ;-)
Michael
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Michael Rueger wrote:
Which again raises the question:
what ever happened to the new all dancing and singing download page Andreas proposed a while ago?
I'm gonna raise this issue every time people trying to run Squeak on Linux have problems ;-)
I'm gonna ignore this issue every time the people in question have been unable to find an solution to their problem at www-sor.inria.fr/~piumarta/squeak ;-)
I agree that the current (diverse, hopelessly contradictory and inconsistent) Unix-related information on the Swiki and (to a lesser extent) at squeak.org is confusing. But (1) none of it was put there by me and (2) my site has been available since before the first "helpful Unix page" was added.
Just about the only pieces of information in the whole Swiki mess surrounding Unix "issues" are the first line of "Other Info" at the bottom of
http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/2961
and the very first line at the top of
http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/298
If someone creates that initial "song and dance" download page, and deletes all the other junk that's lying around, I'll (more than) happily fill in the Unix details. Just send me the URL, once it's created.
Hmm, I think the Unix song and dance will be in the key of... d-moll. (When it comes to getting serious about music, German is definitely the language of choice. ;)
Ian
Hi Ian,
I'm gonna ignore this issue unless the people in question have been unable to find an solution to their problem at www-sor.inria.fr/~piumarta/squeak ;-)
That's only an indicator of the general problem. Note that the message said "I picked it up from a website that I assumed is the standard home of Squeak" and unfortunately, the download page of Squeak.org sends you into a variety of places with good chances that you end up "somewhere else".
What we were trying to achieve with the download page was more along the lines of having a single page with ALL relevant information and direct links to the stuff you need to run Squeak as well as being easily editable. Check out our example at
http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3262
which should give you an idea about what we're after (note that the "info" link on Unix VMs goes straight into your primary web site for support) as well as the thread starting at
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeakfoundation/2003-June/00137 1.html
The whole point of this download page is to make clear what the "standard home" for Squeak downloads is, be able to update it easily and provide up-to-date information on the individual ports.
Cheers, - Andreas
-----Original Message----- From: squeakfoundation-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeakfoundation-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Ian Piumarta Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 1:21 AM To: Discussing the Squeak Foundation Subject: Re: [Squeakfoundation][Fwd: Re: installing squeak on Debian Woody]
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Michael Rueger wrote:
Which again raises the question:
what ever happened to the new all dancing and singing download page Andreas proposed a while ago?
I'm gonna raise this issue every time people trying to run
Squeak on
Linux have problems ;-)
I'm gonna ignore this issue every time the people in question have been unable to find an solution to their problem at www-sor.inria.fr/~piumarta/squeak ;-)
I agree that the current (diverse, hopelessly contradictory and inconsistent) Unix-related information on the Swiki and (to a lesser extent) at squeak.org is confusing. But (1) none of it was put there by me and (2) my site has been available since before the first "helpful Unix page" was added.
Just about the only pieces of information in the whole Swiki mess surrounding Unix "issues" are the first line of "Other Info" at the bottom of
http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/2961
and the very first line at the top of
http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/298
If someone creates that initial "song and dance" download page, and deletes all the other junk that's lying around, I'll (more than) happily fill in the Unix details. Just send me the URL, once it's created.
Hmm, I think the Unix song and dance will be in the key of... d-moll. (When it comes to getting serious about music, German is definitely the language of choice. ;)
Ian
_______________________________________________ Squeakfoundation mailing list Squeakfoundation@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/squeakfoundation
Andreas Raab wrote:
Who is that "Brian Foote" guy which all downloads point at? Perhaps we should blame him for the mess? ;-)
Hi Andreas,
What we were trying to achieve with the download page was more along the lines of having a single page with ALL relevant information and direct links to the stuff you need to run Squeak as well as being easily editable. Check out our example at
That's a _lot_ better. A total pain to update whenever new versions arrive (and too wide to format into a reasonably-dimensioned browser ;), but _much_ better all the same.
Now, I have no substantive issues with any reasonable download organisation (with one very big exception -- which you'll be able to figure out, later in this message). So what follows is kind of taking my position to an extreme, but I'm going to indulge in it anyway as a kind of thought experiment...
Rather than having nrows*ncols of VM dowloads for Unix on that page (with so many version numbers screwed into everything that I certainly wouldn't want to spend an hour editing it and testing every link each time a new release comes out), explain why having that huge Unix download matrix is better than having a single link to
www-sor.inria.fr/~piumarta/squeak
where the entire matrix is reproduced (almost) verbatim (except that you missed a few archives -- there should be 32 of them in total ;) _and_ is generated automatically (it takes me less time to rebuild the entire download matrix than it does to open the editor to change the one variable defining the version number ;) _and_ in which every one of those download links is verified automatically each time I rebuild the page?
I don't know if anyone has noticed this but the process is entirely automated -- from build to publishing the new downloads (and almost all of the re-sync with SF too ;). If I change something for Unix and bump the version number, I run one script and 5 minutes later all affected archives amongst those 32 have been rebuilt -- and the links to them on the download page updated and verified for correctness.
which should give you an idea about what we're after (note that the "info" link on Unix VMs goes straight into your primary web site for support)
I still can't see the advantage of reproducing the download links in some place that's only indirectly connected to their content's origin: (1) the matrix is incomplete; (2) it's unmaintainable (without inordinate amounts of work each time it changes -- and that's sometimes every few hours for Unix during beta test); and (3) I often pay little or no attention to problem reports that arise from VMs packaged by other people -- and I suspect you'd feel similarly about repackaged win32 VMs that had been randomly scrambled. (I recall Stef, I think, although I could be wrong, getting quite upset [in public -- which I was not happy about] over problems with Solaris that arose from somebody repackaging stuff.)
The whole point of this download page is to make clear what the "standard home" for Squeak downloads is, be able to update it easily and provide up-to-date information on the individual ports.
As far as Unix goes, the most up-to-date you could possibly get would be to remove the entire Unix matrix and replace it with one link to the original Unix download page. Or even better, one link and a list of the platforms for which archives are available via that link. (I would be more than willing to keep that list up to date -- my OS versions change far less frequently than do my VM versions. ;)
Apart from anything else, when I'm not distracted with other things, new betas come out every few days -- sometimes every few hours [*] -- and nightly automatic builds of the live source tree are available for download too.
The "download" section for new Unix Squeak users on my page is also much more detailed, and includes a lot of information that is specific to Unix. That section is not going to go away, and reproducing a small "generic" subset of it elsewhere (along with a bunch of archives that merely incites people to dive in potentially underprepared) is simply bad for new Unix users.
Thought experiment terminated. ;)
Cheers, Ian
[*] Just a silly example: I released beta9 two hours ago. I'm about to release beta10 within the next hour -- to incorporate your new sqOpenGLRenderer fixes (unless I fall asleep first ;). If it wasn't for the total automation of the process, which makes creating a new release (and updating its download links and verifying them) trivial to manage, beta10 would not be happening any time soon. It seems strange to want to deprive anyone of that kind of "liveness" by keeping a second-hand set of links to stale archives...
Hi Ian,
That's a _lot_ better. A total pain to update whenever new versions arrive (and too wide to format into a reasonably-dimensioned browser ;)
That is (like the page sez) a proposal. I'm sure people will come along with better layouts, the point I was trying to make is that it is possible to have a better organized download page.
explain why having that huge Unix download matrix is better than having a single link to
www-sor.inria.fr/~piumarta/squeak
Simple. It means that the Squeak community has a common vocabulary what "the download page" is and what you need to do in order to get some Squeak version. It means that if someone asks "where can I get the latest version of Squeak" we can - regardless of platform or whatever else - answer "go to The Download Page (tm) and click on either <full> or <VM>+<image> and you got it". It's also a question between "1 click shopping" or "2 click shopping" - all user studies on the web will show you that every click is one click too much so having an "extra link" to your page is significant in terms of getting to users.
I don't know if anyone has noticed this but the process is entirely automated -- from build to publishing the new downloads (and almost all of the re-sync with SF too ;).
Excellent! That brings up a thought experiment of my own. What if ... you would merely add a script which inserts your auto-generated matrix into such a download page? It's a Swiki after all chosen particularly for the ability to quickly and easily modify and update things. I really don't care how people update the page - if the process is automated, all the better!
I still can't see the advantage of reproducing the download links in some place that's only indirectly connected to their content's origin: (1) the matrix is incomplete; (2) it's unmaintainable (without inordinate amounts of work each time it changes -- and that's sometimes every few hours for Unix during beta test);
None of the two are issues if the matrix is automatically updated.
and (3) I often pay little or no attention to problem reports that arise from VMs packaged by other people -- and I suspect you'd feel similarly about repackaged win32 VMs that had been randomly scrambled.
Yes. I would, however expect the complaints to go to the people who maintain the port (which you can find through the "info" button). Note that badly maintained VMs will likely not being used for long if you have an alternative. So in this sense the download page encourages competition which (I think) solves the above problem implicitly.
Thought experiment terminated. ;)
Let me point out once more what the idea of the download page is: Establish a single place where ALL of the ports can be found in something like a "canonical" format. If we decide to redirect users again and again to other sites where individual bits and pieces can be found we are loosing a lot in terms of "getting Squeak to the users" rather than vice versa. Let me quote once more that bit about "a website that I ASSUMED is the standard". I would like to make it so that there _is_ a standard for Squeak downloads rather than having people to guess where to go - we have no data about how many people have tried to get Squeak and failed in doing so (but I have heard a number of serious complaints from various people and platforms how difficult it is even to find "all the things you need to run Squeak") and I really want to reduce that chance. Since it's very simple to do and doesn't require much work (if you have the process automated it's outright trivial) I favour the directness of The Download Page (tm) over the many (sometimes obscure) links that you find these days on, e.g., the Squeak.org downloads.
Cheers, - Andreas
-----Original Message----- From: squeakfoundation-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeakfoundation-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Ian Piumarta Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 3:01 AM To: Discussing the Squeak Foundation Cc: ian.piumarta@inria.fr Subject: RE: [Squeakfoundation][Fwd: Re: installing squeak on Debian Woody]
Hi Andreas,
What we were trying to achieve with the download page was
more along the
lines of having a single page with ALL relevant information
and direct links
to the stuff you need to run Squeak as well as being easily
editable. Check
out our example at
That's a _lot_ better. A total pain to update whenever new versions arrive (and too wide to format into a reasonably-dimensioned browser ;), but _much_ better all the same.
Now, I have no substantive issues with any reasonable download organisation (with one very big exception -- which you'll be able to figure out, later in this message). So what follows is kind of taking my position to an extreme, but I'm going to indulge in it anyway as a kind of thought experiment...
Rather than having nrows*ncols of VM dowloads for Unix on that page (with so many version numbers screwed into everything that I certainly wouldn't want to spend an hour editing it and testing every link each time a new release comes out), explain why having that huge Unix download matrix is better than having a single link to
www-sor.inria.fr/~piumarta/squeak
where the entire matrix is reproduced (almost) verbatim (except that you missed a few archives -- there should be 32 of them in total ;) _and_ is generated automatically (it takes me less time to rebuild the entire download matrix than it does to open the editor to change the one variable defining the version number ;) _and_ in which every one of those download links is verified automatically each time I rebuild the page?
I don't know if anyone has noticed this but the process is entirely automated -- from build to publishing the new downloads (and almost all of the re-sync with SF too ;). If I change something for Unix and bump the version number, I run one script and 5 minutes later all affected archives amongst those 32 have been rebuilt -- and the links to them on the download page updated and verified for correctness.
which should give you an idea about what we're after (note
that the "info"
link on Unix VMs goes straight into your primary web site
for support)
I still can't see the advantage of reproducing the download links in some place that's only indirectly connected to their content's origin: (1) the matrix is incomplete; (2) it's unmaintainable (without inordinate amounts of work each time it changes -- and that's sometimes every few hours for Unix during beta test); and (3) I often pay little or no attention to problem reports that arise from VMs packaged by other people -- and I suspect you'd feel similarly about repackaged win32 VMs that had been randomly scrambled. (I recall Stef, I think, although I could be wrong, getting quite upset [in public -- which I was not happy about] over problems with Solaris that arose from somebody repackaging stuff.)
The whole point of this download page is to make clear what
the "standard
home" for Squeak downloads is, be able to update it easily
and provide
up-to-date information on the individual ports.
As far as Unix goes, the most up-to-date you could possibly get would be to remove the entire Unix matrix and replace it with one link to the original Unix download page. Or even better, one link and a list of the platforms for which archives are available via that link. (I would be more than willing to keep that list up to date -- my OS versions change far less frequently than do my VM versions. ;)
Apart from anything else, when I'm not distracted with other things, new betas come out every few days -- sometimes every few hours [*] -- and nightly automatic builds of the live source tree are available for download too.
The "download" section for new Unix Squeak users on my page is also much more detailed, and includes a lot of information that is specific to Unix. That section is not going to go away, and reproducing a small "generic" subset of it elsewhere (along with a bunch of archives that merely incites people to dive in potentially underprepared) is simply bad for new Unix users.
Thought experiment terminated. ;)
Cheers, Ian
[*] Just a silly example: I released beta9 two hours ago. I'm about to release beta10 within the next hour -- to incorporate your new sqOpenGLRenderer fixes (unless I fall asleep first ;). If it wasn't for the total automation of the process, which makes creating a new release (and updating its download links and verifying them) trivial to manage, beta10 would not be happening any time soon. It seems strange to want to deprive anyone of that kind of "liveness" by keeping a second-hand set of links to stale archives...
Squeakfoundation mailing list Squeakfoundation@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/squeakfoundation
Hi Andreas,
None of the two are issues if the matrix is automatically updated.
Ok, I'm almost convinced.
All I need now is to be persuaded that a Swiki page (does it *have* to be a swiki page -- with all the automation problems that entails?) can be updated automatically from a script that I run locally. I can get a superset by downloading "xyz.edit", but it's got lots of cruft around the actual editable content. Also, what I see in the xyz.edit page to upload the changes is a form button "save" with action="post". The former I can probably sed/awk out of the noise, but I'm not sure how to imitate a "post" to upload the modified content.
Anyone know definitively how to do this (from within a script)?
Cheers, Ian
"Andreas Raab" andreas.raab@gmx.de wrote:
Excellent! That brings up a thought experiment of my own. What if ... you would merely add a script which inserts your auto-generated matrix into such a download page? It's a Swiki after all chosen particularly for the ability to quickly and easily modify and update things. I really don't care how people update the page - if the process is automated, all the better!
I'm not sure if it's still true but it used to be possible to make a swiki page that would inline another file/page. Seems to me that this would make a dandy way to include automagically (or statically) generated sections of The One True Download Table from each port maintainer's favoured place. All we have to do then is agree on the canonical html snippet that will produce the table layout of our dreams.
tim -- Tim Rowledge, tim@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim Strange OpCodes: HEM: Hide Evidence of Malfunction
Hi guys!
I don't want to stop you from doing these things - anything that is better than the current situation is ... well, better. :-)
I just want to throw my little log into the fire too:
I have from the start imagined that SM could catalog other things than Squeak code packages. Squeak images, good websites for Squeakers and of course VMs come to mind.
That would (eventually) get us a canonical place to look for new VMs etc. And since I am planning a simple nice API for doing releases and other modifications to the map in a distributed manner - it should *eventually* (yes, not tomorrow) be very simple for Ian and other port maintainers to script their entries in SM2. No boring HTML forms to fill out.
And each such entry also (as packages have today) has a homepage so when the links etc don't suffice, Ian's (or Andreas' or any other nice homepage) homepage is only a click away.
As I said, just wanted to mention it.
regards, Göran
squeakfoundation@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Andreas Raab -
Bert Freudenberg -
goran.krampe＠bluefish.se -
Ian Piumarta -
Michael Rueger -
Tim Rowledge