Hey, THAT's a good idea. This is now a squeakf thread. If you really think this is too much fun to miss, you know where we are. There, now people can enjoy Jecel et al without this mess. People, please answer the legal parts of the "Closure compiler"-derived threads on squeakfoundation, not on squeak-dev.
About sublicensing - have you read the CPL version of indemnification I mentioned? sounds reasonable enough to me that maybe the DFSG guys will accept it, and it seems to provide pretty good protection to Apple (and the rest of us).
I marked out the relevant parts at - http://tai42.xs4all.nl:8099/http://www.opensource.org/licenses/cpl.php
If this was the main issue Debian Legal was bugged about, this could help. Andrew?
Daniel
All the issues raised by debian-legal -
Issues in http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2000/debian-legal-200008/msg00117.h tml) ******************** I`m not sure we can honor the preamble:
PLEASE READ THIS SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT "LICENSE" CAREFULLY BEFORE DOWNLOADING THIS SOFTWARE. BY DOWNLOADING THIS SOFTWARE YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE, DO NOT DOWNLOAD.
The questions is wether this kind of licenses is binding or just void. ******************** Which we could change to "if you do not agree, do not use". Would this solve the problem?
******************** 2. Permitted Uses and Restrictions. This License allows you to copy, install and use the Apple Software on an unlimited number of computers under your direct control. You may modify and create derivative works of the Apple Software ("Modified Software"), however, you may not modify or create derivative works of the fonts provided by Apple ("Fonts"). You may distribute and sublicense such Modified Software
The "Fonts" is clearly non-free. Can the package use fonts not provided by Apple? ******************** Remove the fonts before we sublicense, remove that part.
******************** 6. Export Law Assurances. You may not use or otherwise export or reexport the Apple Software except as authorized by United States law and the laws of the jurisdiction in which the Apple Software was obtained.
Doesn`t this alone makes it non-free? I think we have discussed it several times what it means when licenses explicite referes to some laws which "isn`t DFSG-free". I think that it makes the license non-free, but I don`t remember what we have agreed on. ********************
Issues raised at the FSF list, not Debian, just for reference, and it case it might have merit http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/savannah-hackers/2002-11/msg00115.html ******************** The fonts are definately not Free Software. The choice of law clause is also incompatible. -- -Dave Turner Free Software Licensing Guru This is not legal advice. If you need legal advice, see a lawyer.
(I guess he's talking about the following -) Controlling Law and Severability. If there is a local subsidiary of Apple in the country in which the Apple Software License was obtained, then the local law in which the subsidiary sits shall govern this License. Otherwise, this License shall be governed by the laws of the United States and the State of California. If for any reason a court of competent jurisdiction finds any provision, or portion thereof, to be unenforceable, the remainder of this License shall continue in full force and effect. ********************
The real hell raiser (because it's so funny) http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200106/msg00003.h tml ******************** Choice of language (the clause saying that if you live in quebec, the agreement is still in english) ********************
At http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2001/debian-legal-200105/msg00170.h tml ******************** If the Modified Software contains modifications, overwrites, replacements, deletions, additions, or ports to new platforms of: (1) the methods of existing class objects or their existing relationships, or (2) any part of the virtual machine, then for so long as the Modified Software is distributed or sublicensed to others, such modified, overwritten, replaced, deleted, added and ported portions of the Modified Software must be made publicly available, preferably by means of download from a website, at no charge under the terms set forth in Exhibit A below.
I think this puts the whole package in non-free. This precludes CD manufacturers from selling binary CD's and then providing the source on a separate CD that you have to pay a reasonable duplication fee for. ******************** I don't understand how this makes it *un*free. It does mean any user can change, because This may be irrelevant because Squeak always includes source,
Cees de Groot cg@cdegroot.com wrote:
--Boundary_(ID_KlDN0GcL6O4UOGY1GCzXyQ) Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-e1meIsI0QoRt4nNTfh4D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1
--=-e1meIsI0QoRt4nNTfh4D Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
[We should be moving this thread to SqF, as this whole issue is killing the squeak-dev list...].
The Apple guy responded positively to the idea of sublicensing. I've asked him for permission to share our email exchange with others, which I assume I'll get later today. He indicated that for Apple to look positively at the sublicensing thing we'd need to come up with something that only deviates minimally from SqueakL, just enough to fix it up for DFSG/OSI/... wherever we want to head.=20
So, can we decide as a community that this is OK, a cleaned-up SqueakL? If yes, it is probably time for some legal guys to take over :-)
Regards,
Cees
--=-e1meIsI0QoRt4nNTfh4D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQA+g1EP8wOTf+CYnosRAni4AJ9XEKGAYXYIi5KSRMbQQ3xRKDqGaACbBtDa rIVGkI8YkePo3BhfqO1qkpE= =EssR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--=-e1meIsI0QoRt4nNTfh4D--
--Boundary_(ID_KlDN0GcL6O4UOGY1GCzXyQ) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
--Boundary_(ID_KlDN0GcL6O4UOGY1GCzXyQ)--
- Export Law Assurances. You may not use or otherwise export or reexport the Apple Software except as authorized by United States law and the laws of the jurisdiction in which the Apple Software was obtained.
Doesn`t this alone makes it non-free? I think we have discussed it several times what it means when licenses explicite referes to some laws which "isn`t DFSG-free". I think that it makes the license non-free, but I don`t remember what we have agreed on.
To the best of my understanding this is implicit no matter what you put in your license. Federal law stands whether you mention it or not. If the existence of this condition makes something non-free then there's a lot of software that is non-free; for example rather a lot of Gnu code that was written in the US. http://www.eff.org/CAF/law/software-export-law has lots of stuff that seems related including specific mention of software with encryption capabilities; Squeak may well count (DESPlugin, MD5Plugin etc).
To the best of my understanding this is implicit no matter what you put in your license. Federal law stands whether you mention it or not. If the existence of this condition makes something non-free then there's a lot of software that is non-free; for example rather a lot of Gnu code that was written in the US. http://www.eff.org/CAF/law/software-export-law has lots of stuff that seems related including specific mention of software with encryption capabilities; Squeak may well count (DESPlugin, MD5Plugin etc).
Which was written in Argentia, fortunately. Now if we put the primary download site into the Netherlands we should be pretty safe in this respect ;-) Good thing that SqueakMap is in Sweden, heh, heh ;-)
Cheers, - Andreas
"Andreas Raab" andreas.raab@gmx.de wrote:
Which was written in Argentia, fortunately. Now if we put the primary download site into the Netherlands we should be pretty safe in this respect ;-) Good thing that SqueakMap is in Sweden, heh, heh ;-)
... and you think that US law doesn't reach there? Maybe not yet, but....
tim
Tim Rowledge tim@sumeru.stanford.edu wrote:
"Andreas Raab" andreas.raab@gmx.de wrote:
Which was written in Argentia, fortunately. Now if we put the primary download site into the Netherlands we should be pretty safe in this respect ;-) Good thing that SqueakMap is in Sweden, heh, heh ;-)
... and you think that US law doesn't reach there? Maybe not yet, but....
Hey! Don't be rude. (Insert small smiley here meaning that I am only 50% joking)
regards, Göran
PS. Btw, I wonder for how long the US is going to hold a Swedish citizen imprisoned on Cuba without even telling him what he is charged for. And AFAIK Sweden is the only country that has issued a protest to this. Frankly, I am pretty damn sick of US right now.
PPS. Not my intention to start a political flamewar here, but I just can't help it. Some things are just more important than others.
squeakfoundation@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Andreas Raab -
Daniel Vainsencher -
goran.hultgren＠bluefish.se -
Tim Rowledge