UI September 2007

ui@lists.squeakfoundation.org

29 participants
102 discussions

Workspace backgrounds - almost there
by Bill Schwab 26 Sep '07

26 Sep '07

I did some fiddling to try to reproduce the installation problems I had, added a reminder about the Damien's dev image to the UI swiki page, downloaded it, and did an installation of Gary's widgets using Monitcello. Then I moved my BibTeX helper code into the new image. I appear to have made a happy mistake in the latter, capturing a change that I considered redundant, and ended up with more or less the visual changes I was trying to create, and grabbed a screenshot before I had time to break it :) I will probably send it to Gary as a start. What is the proper way to make it available? I suppose the easiest thing is to put it on my web page, but I have not yet learned how to use Linux to remotely access our servers, so I can't do that right now. When it becomes available, you will notice the background color of the browser's and debugger's code pane. I would hope for the debugger's inspector panes to be so colored also, though they currently show it only for the top line. Ironically, the workspace in the image is not correctly colored, though a newly-created instance has the correct color, though, as in the debugger's inspectors, it shows the color only to a point, after which the default white takes over. Again, this is not a super big deal, but I find that similar changes that OA made to Dolphin long ago grew on me. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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Re: creating instance variable accessors
by Todd Blanchard 22 Sep '07

22 Sep '07

In general - Squeak's menus need reorganizing in a BIG way. On Sep 21, 2007, at 9:42 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote: > Todd Blanchard wrote: >> Yes, but the feature is inexplicably buried. >> Cmd-click in class list pane to get menu that begins with 'browse >> full' >> choose 'more...' >> on subsequent menu it is the last item 'create inst var accessors' > [snip] > > Thanks Todd, > > I thought I had looked in that menu. But I guess I missed it. > > It seems that it would be nice if it were in the Instance Variable > submenu, possible right below the > 3. Create accessors for instance variable > we could have > 4. Create accessors for instance variables. > or if we want to be truly explicit > 4. Create accessors for all instance variables. > > > I played with it just now to see if it met my other question with > regard to adding accessors to variables which do not have them and > it did. I even modified one of the existing accessors to see if it > would leave it alone or overwrite it. It did as I had hoped. > Beautiful! > > Thanks again for pointing this out. > > Jimmie >

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Re: [UI] Well, shall we do something then?
by Bill Schwab 21 Sep '07

21 Sep '07

That happens far too often. Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> siguctua(a)gmail.com 09/21/07 3:11 AM >>> On 20/09/2007, Chris Muller <asqueaker(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I've observed Martin Loewis' new WeakKeyDictionary implementations > reduce the problem dramatically. > > http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6348 > > I know sig has done similar work but I haven't had time yet to try it. > Btw, regarding weak finalization process, i posted a fix which should improve speed even more: http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6652 But it seems my post was ignored, no any comments, nor discussion.. > > On 9/19/07, David T. Lewis <lewis(a)mail.msen.com> wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 12:38:44AM +0300, Igor Stasenko wrote: > > > On 18/09/2007, Gary Chambers <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com> wrote: > > > > Well, there is the Model but there has to be a linkage for when the model > > > > changes. That's the basics. We need to decide on the way(s) we wish that to > > > > happen. I find changed/update rather inefficient. Much prefer when:send:to:. > > > > > > > > But that's just the start. Pretty fundamental though. > > > > > > > Yes! And i think this is the point where we should start from. > > > How to create flexible event system , how exchange data between view > > > and model. Based on that we then can build up a model which will use > > > it (MVP/Morphic whatever) > > > > A note of caution: The #when:send:to: mechanism can have serious performance > > issues due to its use of weak dictionaries. Performance of the entire image > > is seriously impacted by weak array finalization as the number of these > > dictionaries increases. There is no easy fix for this, so make sure you > > know what you are getting into before you start with an approach based > > on this mechanism. > > > > Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UI mailing list > > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Squeak UI/Usability Design
by Geert Claes 21 Sep '07

21 Sep '07

Don't get me wrong, I reckon the work Gary has done with his UI Enhancements is a great start and it actually showed me the true potential of Squeak. Squeak should be all about choice. I reckon the Squeak image should be stripped down to the bare minimum with a package loader allowing the user to choose what they want in their image. It is in people's nature to resists change and therefore I think it's important that the user should be given the choice how to interact with their Squeak image - current Morphic package or some new, different more user friendly Morphic package.

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Re: [UI] Squeak UI/Usability Design
by Bill Schwab 20 Sep '07

20 Sep '07

Just an observation: "complete list of functionality (World Menu, Open Menu, Appearance Menu, Windows & Flaps Menu, Browsers ...)" - you are assuming the status quo. I urge you to look at the amazing work Gary is doing as a gift. He's willing to theme it, and is doing some of the best work I have seen in Squeak for several years. We should encourage/help him to the extent possible, and the gin up a zero-impact theme for those who can't stomach something different that the current look and feel. Since that changes with every release, I don't quite grok the resistance to change, but maybe that's just me. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com 09/19/07 8:52 PM >>> I agree with previous posts that Squeak does not need to mimic Windows or even Mac as their look and feel. However, instead of starting with ideas on how to improve the UI technically, I reckon the first thing the UI group needs to come up with is a complete list of functionality (World Menu, Open Menu, Appearance Menu, Windows & Flaps Menu, Browsers ...) which somehow will need to be accessed by the user. This should then be the sole input for a proper usability design irrespective of OS. The result of this usability design will be some basic interface mock-ups defining how a user will be able to access a certain functionality. Graphic designers can then come up with colour schemes and icons to make to whole thing appealing to the eye.

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Re: [UI] Well, shall we do something then?
by Bill Schwab 20 Sep '07

20 Sep '07

Dave, This sounds like a problem with objects not being gc'd. There are subtle problems with one of the of the #when:* variants - IIRC, it's #when:evaluate:, that will result in entire webs of objects not being collected. OA found and partially fixed, partially designed around it in Dolphin, and we have had no such problems. This is starting to sound like an as-yet unidentified bug that is causing people to shun a very nice design. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> lewis(a)mail.msen.com 09/19/07 11:24 PM >>> I don't know what a "usual load" is. The effect would be be cumulative for all of the event-driven thingamabobs in all of the projects in an entire image. I'm guessing that the nature of the beast that that the total number of these things could accumulate in an image over time, and sooner or later (probably sooner) you would start fielding questions from folks whose images had slowed to a crawl for "no reason at all". I ran into this issue in an experimental version of my CommandShell, in which I had tried to move the event driven stuff to use #when:send:to:. The net result was that when I created command pipelines with lots of event-driven activity, I ended up with an image that moved like molasses. I had to go back and change everything to use the old update protocol, which turned out to be perfectly satisfactory for my needs, and which did not have a performance problem. HTH, Dave On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 08:29:22PM -0400, Bill Schwab wrote: > Dave, > > I take your word for it. I would hope that with my usual load of > browsers, inspectors, and a debugger or two, it would be ok. Anything > that gets into thousands of widgets, I would long-since have been > emulating. Is that realistic, or is worse than that? > > Bill > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > > >>> lewis(a)mail.msen.com 9/19/2007 4:03:29 PM >>> > On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 08:47:18AM -0400, Bill Schwab wrote: > > Is the weak dictionary problem unique to Squeak? Dolphin seems to > get > > along just fine with MVP. OTOH, what you describe could be a part > of > > why I emulate for large grids, etc., or it could be a "SquWeakness" > that > > needs attention. I use events with the emulated framework, but there > is > > also some > > I don't know about other Smalltalks, but it is an issue for Squeak. > The original update mechanism is perfectly fine by the way. > > > Years ago now, I made inquires about Squeak's process > syncrhonization > > objects, and scaling of threads, and was regaled with stories of > great > > victories over the dragons of software complexity ;) More recently, > I > > am getting the sense that (e.g. "we almost had to rewrite in Java") > some > > of this stuff is just plain broke. It is unclear whether it really > is > > sound, or was sound and has since gotten into trouble, etc. > > It's not broken, it just does not scale with respect to performance, > and > that fact is not well known or documented. > > Dave > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Squeak's Menus Are Excellent (was: Re: [UI] Squeak's Menus Are Awful)
by Chris Muller 20 Sep '07

20 Sep '07

Squeak's menus are anything but "awful." Specifically, they support the keyboard and not just a modifier+hot-key (a la MS Windows menus). The usefulness of this is especially evidenced with World>>open...>>file... Just type away instead of "hunt-and-click". Squeak menus entry's can be tacked in place, and even invdividual menu items can be torn off (use the duplicate halo) and placed anywhere on the desktop or on a flap; thus building-up your own little custom IDE. They can even be turned sideways for special cases. Your complaint seemed pretty insignificant to me, so I felt the subject language of this thread was more than overly critical; more like plain wrong. On 9/13/07, Todd Blanchard <tblanchard(a)mac.com> wrote: > Specifically, they open to the right of the mouse. If you open a > menu, don't move the mouse, and click, you will pick up the menu with > the hand. This happens to me - oh - about 50% of the time. Either > open the menu under the mouse, or make it so I can't pick it up > except with the title bar. > > Just did this for the nth time today and had to vent. > > -Todd Blanchard > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui >

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Re: [UI] Well, shall we do something then?
by Bill Schwab 20 Sep '07

20 Sep '07

Dave, I take your word for it. I would hope that with my usual load of browsers, inspectors, and a debugger or two, it would be ok. Anything that gets into thousands of widgets, I would long-since have been emulating. Is that realistic, or is worse than that? Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> lewis(a)mail.msen.com 9/19/2007 4:03:29 PM >>> On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 08:47:18AM -0400, Bill Schwab wrote: > Is the weak dictionary problem unique to Squeak? Dolphin seems to get > along just fine with MVP. OTOH, what you describe could be a part of > why I emulate for large grids, etc., or it could be a "SquWeakness" that > needs attention. I use events with the emulated framework, but there is > also some I don't know about other Smalltalks, but it is an issue for Squeak. The original update mechanism is perfectly fine by the way. > Years ago now, I made inquires about Squeak's process syncrhonization > objects, and scaling of threads, and was regaled with stories of great > victories over the dragons of software complexity ;) More recently, I > am getting the sense that (e.g. "we almost had to rewrite in Java") some > of this stuff is just plain broke. It is unclear whether it really is > sound, or was sound and has since gotten into trouble, etc. It's not broken, it just does not scale with respect to performance, and that fact is not well known or documented. Dave _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Where is Tweak? (was: Re: [UI] Well, shall we do something then?)
by Chris Muller 20 Sep '07

20 Sep '07

> On 16-Sep-07, at 11:41 AM, Bill Schwab wrote: > > > Todd, > > > > I had forgotten about the costumes - now I really want no part of > > Tweak > > Costumes are in my opinion one of the more useful parts of the tweak Can anyone point me to information about Tweak? The link from squeak.org, tweak.impara.de, has been non-functional for a long time.

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Squeak UI/Usability Design
by Geert Claes 20 Sep '07

20 Sep '07

I agree with previous posts that Squeak does not need to mimic Windows or even Mac as their look and feel. However, instead of starting with ideas on how to improve the UI technically, I reckon the first thing the UI group needs to come up with is a complete list of functionality (World Menu, Open Menu, Appearance Menu, Windows & Flaps Menu, Browsers ...) which somehow will need to be accessed by the user. This should then be the sole input for a proper usability design irrespective of OS. The result of this usability design will be some basic interface mock-ups defining how a user will be able to access a certain functionality. Graphic designers can then come up with colour schemes and icons to make to whole thing appealing to the eye.

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UI September 2007