UI February 2008

ui@lists.squeakfoundation.org

14 participants
12 discussions

Re: [UI] Morphic restructuring
by Alain Plantec 29 Feb '08

29 Feb '08

On Saturday 23 February 2008 18:30, Gary Chambers wrote: > Once we have a nice performant and flexible framework I see the roles being > reversed, Morphic being handled via an adaptor in the new framework... > > All thoughts welcome. > Gary. Hi Gary, Maybe this is (at least partly) what I'm working on with Miro. Here is what I said about it on squeak-dev 2 weeks ago as a answer to Hilaire > On Tuesday 12 February 2008 13:49, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > > Regarding the recent posts on Morph. I just want to write I am very > > interested by what Juan is doing with Morph 3, and also about Alain > > Plantec work to improve Morph. > > .... > > Thanks Hilaire, > Miro is in very early stage and I did'nt want to say to much about it > before I can show something to the community. > but I can say a little bit more. The aim is to provide a set of > re-targetable widgets. By re-targetable, I mean that it would be possible > to use them with Morphic2, Morphic3, or SqueakGtk or another connectable > viewing framework. For now, I'm using a fork of 4 morph classes (Morph, > ImageMorph, TextMorph and TransformMorph). My widgets are build by > composition of these 4 morph classes (no inheritance but only real > composition). Each widget is connected to its view classe (like my 4 Morph > classes are) by a mediator called a Director. A director have the > responsibility to build the scene (compose Morphs), to dress the scene > (style and theme handling) and to manage communications between the scenes > and the widgets. > Communications between the scene and the director and the widgets and > finally the client GUI is made with the help of Announcement framework. > So I think this architecture can be powerful but it has a cost and I want > to experiment it before I claim I have something interesting. > From my point of view, Morphic3 is a very interesting project because it > aims to provide a minimal set of very clean Morph classes. This is exactly > what I'm looking for as a built-in viewing framework. > A first demonstration of Miro usability will be obtained when I will be > able to really transparently re-target the same client GUI from Morphic2 > compatible classes to Morphic3. The next big step will be to connect Miro > to SqueakGtk. I will really be satisfied when I will be able to bring > native widgets connection to squeak. > As soon as I have a minimal set of clean widget connected to Morphic2 > compatible view classes, I document it and expose it to the community in > order to receive some feedbacks. > A long way to go but funny :) > cheers > alain >

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Re: [UI] Morphic restructuring
by Bill Schwab 23 Feb '08

23 Feb '08

First, I am not aware that anything is being done in the dark. However, Object Arts did pretty well with MVP w/o a lot of input, so maybe a small group _should_ be working behind closed doors. Indeed, the technology that seeded this effort came from a well-intentioned and skilled group of people at Pinesoft. Please note that they have made substantial changes based on our feedback, and this thread started with them asking for input on a future change. It's working; let's not derail them. Sincerely, Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> siguctua(a)gmail.com 02/16/08 4:53 PM >>> I'd like to add, it wouldn't hurt to discuss design of new framework publicly, so everyone will have a chance to put his 2 cents and share ideas. :) On 16/02/2008, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > Tim, > > Agreed, and then some. I would not be upset by a framework that can > work down to the individual widget, but what you describe would give > most of the benefits of host integration and very few of the hassles. > In that, I am assuming (a safe bet I think) that Gary will ensure that > the feel is sufficiently configurable that we will not need an outside > framework to impose discipline re keyboard focus, etc. > > Bill > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > >>> tim(a)rowledge.org 02/15/08 3:00 PM >>> > > Our basic intent when designing Ffenestri was to allow pretty much any > usage. If you want to map a single SystemWindow level object to a host > window then that would be good and would match most needs in typical > applications. Don't forget to consider floating palette type windows > as well - those that accompany a main window and provide a palette of > tool icons etc. And menus could be implemented by opening a short > lived small window; this might well be much simpler and more portable > than trying to hook cleanly into every OS menu api, whilst allowing > the menu to be taller than a small app. window if needed. > > tim > -- > tim Rowledge; tim(a)rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim > Klingon Code Warrior:- 10) "This code is a piece of crap! You have no > honor!" > > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Seaside and UI Enhancements??
by Bill Schwab 18 Feb '08

18 Feb '08

Hello all, Are any of you using Seaside with Gary's UI Enhancements? It seems like it should be ok, but if there are any tricks to getting everything installed, time-saving pointers would be appreciated. I am giving an introductory presentation on Smalltalk and Seaside (very basic stuff), and prefer to have the improved GUI if at all possible. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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Re: [UI] Seaside and UI Enhancements??
by Bill Schwab 18 Feb '08

18 Feb '08

Simon, By "with" I indeed meant just making it look nice, not to mention have an improved feel. I thought they would be orthogonal, but it is great to know that you have run the configuration for a while. You guys are doing great work, and I fully intend to put it on display. Thanks!! Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> simon(a)pinesoft.co.uk 02/17/08 3:00 PM >>> Bill Schwab wrote: > > Are any of you using Seaside with Gary's UI Enhancements? It seems like > it should be ok, but if there are any tricks to getting everything > installed, time-saving pointers would be appreciated. I am giving an > introductory presentation on Smalltalk and Seaside (very basic stuff), > and prefer to have the improved GUI if at all possible. > Hi Bill. Here at Pinesoft (where Gary works!) we're developing with Seaside in dev images (as in, Damien Cassou's dev images) with the UI enhancements enabled. I'm not sure what you mean by "with", do you just mean an image with the UI enhancements making it look pretty? If that's the case I'm not sure what issues there are, as afaicr Seaside and the UI enhancements are orthogonal. Cheers, Simon -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Seaside-and-UI-Enhancements---tp15529989p15532405.html Sent from the Squeak - UI mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Seaside and UI Enhancements??
by Bill Schwab 18 Feb '08

18 Feb '08

Adrian, Agreed, though I have less objection to the multiple packages and more objection to the lack (my fault as much as anyone's) of a script that automagically gets the most recent versions of the packages required to load it. If you have some spare time, please take a look at http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6005 and add anything you think might be missing. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> adi(a)netstyle.ch 02/17/08 5:38 PM >>> I tested UIEnhancements with a stock 3.9 image. Unfortunately, the package depends on Package Universes, which depends on YAXO. So its not straightforward to load, but its doable if you know how. It would be nice to have just one Monticello package without dependencies... Cheers, Adrian On Feb 17, 2008, at 21:00 , Simon Kirk wrote: > > > Bill Schwab wrote: >> >> Are any of you using Seaside with Gary's UI Enhancements? It seems >> like >> it should be ok, but if there are any tricks to getting everything >> installed, time-saving pointers would be appreciated. I am giving an >> introductory presentation on Smalltalk and Seaside (very basic >> stuff), >> and prefer to have the improved GUI if at all possible. >> > > Hi Bill. > > Here at Pinesoft (where Gary works!) we're developing with Seaside > in dev > images (as in, Damien Cassou's dev images) with the UI enhancements > enabled. > I'm not sure what you mean by "with", do you just mean an image with > the UI > enhancements making it look pretty? > > If that's the case I'm not sure what issues there are, as afaicr > Seaside and > the UI enhancements are orthogonal. > > Cheers, > Simon > -- > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Seaside-and-UI-Enhancements---tp15529989p15532405.html > Sent from the Squeak - UI mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Morphic restructuring
by Bill Schwab 16 Feb '08

16 Feb '08

Tim, Agreed, and then some. I would not be upset by a framework that can work down to the individual widget, but what you describe would give most of the benefits of host integration and very few of the hassles. In that, I am assuming (a safe bet I think) that Gary will ensure that the feel is sufficiently configurable that we will not need an outside framework to impose discipline re keyboard focus, etc. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> tim(a)rowledge.org 02/15/08 3:00 PM >>> Our basic intent when designing Ffenestri was to allow pretty much any usage. If you want to map a single SystemWindow level object to a host window then that would be good and would match most needs in typical applications. Don't forget to consider floating palette type windows as well - those that accompany a main window and provide a palette of tool icons etc. And menus could be implemented by opening a short lived small window; this might well be much simpler and more portable than trying to hook cleanly into every OS menu api, whilst allowing the menu to be taller than a small app. window if needed. tim -- tim Rowledge; tim(a)rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Klingon Code Warrior:- 10) "This code is a piece of crap! You have no honor!" _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Morphic restructuring
by Bill Schwab 16 Feb '08

16 Feb '08

Karl, I think one ultimately "fixes" these things by adding a parallel framework that is clean from the ground up. Along the way, the existing Morphic IDE provides the tools to get there. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> karl.ramberg(a)comhem.se 02/14/08 11:04 AM >>> Gary Chambers wrote: > Not planning any Tweak low-level stuff. Just a restructuring of the event > mechanism to allow both "world" based and individual (host) window based > opportunity. Pick-n-mix! > A few morphic issues come to mind: Keyboard focus stuff is messy and cause lots of errors. Dozens of preferences that nobody use or know what are for. The mix of AlignmentMorph and other morphs for doing layout stuff. And more and more Karl > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ui-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> [mailto:ui-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Bill Schwab >> Sent: 14 February 2008 2:08 PM >> To: ui(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> Subject: Re: [UI] Morphic restructuring >> >> >> Gary, >> >> Morphic works, there is not much else to say in its favor, and you have >> shown amazing flare for user interface implementation, so I tend to >> trust your judgement. That said, a couple of questions/comments: >> >> Are you thinking of multiple host windows as in allowing each system >> window to have its own host window, perhaps in it own morphic world >> running therein? I have *no* idea whether the world is >> good/bad/optional. Details aside, it could be nice to have that option. >> There are times when a single host window for the IDE is great, and >> times when it is unfortunate. Any system that emulates (and I am >> convinced that emulation is a good thing far more often than the >> mainstream would have us believe) should be able to give the user the >> choice to host in one window or many. Great idea. Like it a lot :) As >> an example of when I might want to use a single window, imagine a >> machine running multiple "deployed" Squeak images with some debugging >> and image re-saving as part of the plan. Intermingling tools in host >> windows might get very confusing; I have not done this, but I would >> expect to do so if I end up using Squeak on a large scale. Multiple >> host windows have myriad uses, all the more so when considering end >> users. >> >> You mentioned Tweak. I fear Tweak. It has some good ideas, but >> altering the compiler was (IMHO) a huge mistake. I could mention >> a_few_other_things that are not quite where_they_belong, but you get the >> idea. Build separate code-generating/editing tools (e.g. WindowBuilder >> on steroids) to provide the same functionality with an >> object-composition/code-based event system underneath the tools, and I'm >> all over it. Put another way, I like new things to be built in >> Smalltalk, not into it, unless there is no other way. However, I >> suspect you are proposing backward-compatible changes to Morphic events >> to enhance it, which is probably great. What do you have in mind? :) >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. >> University of Florida >> Department of Anesthesiology >> PO Box 100254 >> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 >> >> Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu >> Tel: (352) 846-1285 >> FAX: (352) 392-7029 >> >> >>>>> gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com 02/11/08 11:01 AM >>> >>>>> >> Would anyone agree that a reorganisation of the Morphic event system >> would >> be useful? >> Just looking to perhaps transparently support use of multiple host >> windows. >> Kind of like, if an event has a tag of some kind that it is deferred to >> a >> registered handler, default would be as-is. A little bit Tweaky but just >> a >> start on the infrastructure. >> >> >> Gary. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UI mailing list >> UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UI mailing list >> UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui >> > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Morphic restructuring
by Bill Schwab 15 Feb '08

15 Feb '08

Gary, Morphic works, there is not much else to say in its favor, and you have shown amazing flare for user interface implementation, so I tend to trust your judgement. That said, a couple of questions/comments: Are you thinking of multiple host windows as in allowing each system window to have its own host window, perhaps in it own morphic world running therein? I have *no* idea whether the world is good/bad/optional. Details aside, it could be nice to have that option. There are times when a single host window for the IDE is great, and times when it is unfortunate. Any system that emulates (and I am convinced that emulation is a good thing far more often than the mainstream would have us believe) should be able to give the user the choice to host in one window or many. Great idea. Like it a lot :) As an example of when I might want to use a single window, imagine a machine running multiple "deployed" Squeak images with some debugging and image re-saving as part of the plan. Intermingling tools in host windows might get very confusing; I have not done this, but I would expect to do so if I end up using Squeak on a large scale. Multiple host windows have myriad uses, all the more so when considering end users. You mentioned Tweak. I fear Tweak. It has some good ideas, but altering the compiler was (IMHO) a huge mistake. I could mention a_few_other_things that are not quite where_they_belong, but you get the idea. Build separate code-generating/editing tools (e.g. WindowBuilder on steroids) to provide the same functionality with an object-composition/code-based event system underneath the tools, and I'm all over it. Put another way, I like new things to be built in Smalltalk, not into it, unless there is no other way. However, I suspect you are proposing backward-compatible changes to Morphic events to enhance it, which is probably great. What do you have in mind? :) Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com 02/11/08 11:01 AM >>> Would anyone agree that a reorganisation of the Morphic event system would be useful? Just looking to perhaps transparently support use of multiple host windows. Kind of like, if an event has a tag of some kind that it is deferred to a registered handler, default would be as-is. A little bit Tweaky but just a start on the infrastructure. Gary. _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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UI Enhancements dependency Package Universes
by Adrian Lienhard 14 Feb '08

14 Feb '08

Hi, Pinesoft-Widgets depends on a Package Universes class. Would it be possible to remove this dependency so that one can load UI Enhancements into an image where no Package Universes is installed? Btw, great work! Cheers, Adrian

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RE: [UI] Mouse wheel
by Bill Schwab 04 Feb '08

04 Feb '08

Gary, Ok, the place to start is for me to double check my preferences. More to come. Thanks! Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com 02/04/08 6:01 AM >>> Odd, I get the expected behaviour (with mouseClickForKeyboardFocus enabled and mouseOverForKeyboardFocus disabled). > -----Original Message----- > From: ui-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > [mailto:ui-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Bill Schwab > Sent: 03 February 2008 12:32 AM > To: ui(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > Subject: RE: [UI] Mouse wheel > > > Gary, > > I saw 285 and loaded that and fiddled around slightly. I made a point > of using the wheel to scroll panes in inactive windows interspersed with > typing in the active window, and that seems to work except when the > scrolling list is part of the active window. With the other traffic, I > suspect that a change to regain keyboard selection in the lists is being > enabled on mouse over (if only in/under the active windows) vs. after > transfer of focus. I see where you are going, but it essentially brings > back the "lists grab the focus" problem. > > IMHO, if a user wants to simply point at a list and have it grab the > focus for keyboard navigation, they should use a policy that changes > focus on mouse-over. As a click/tab to change focus type, I want the > focus to be independent of the mouse movement, and will click/tab to a > list that I want to navigate by keyboard. Hopefully it will suffice to > limit the navigation to the list with the focus. Reasonable? > > As always, thanks for working on this!!! > > Bill > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > >>> gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com 01/28/08 11:42 AM >>> > Load Pinesoft-Widgets-gvc.284 from SqueakSource and enjoy! > Was tricky to figure out but done nicely, I think. > If the VMs get arround to generating mouse wheel events natively > (rrather > than simulating with a keystroke) it is a small matter to support that > when/if that happens. > > Will await feedback before updating the Universe. > > Regards, Gary. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ui-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > [mailto:ui-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Bill Schwab > > Sent: 22 January 2008 3:21 AM > > To: ui(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > Subject: Re: [UI] Mouse wheel > > > > > > Gary, > > > > It is not terribly high on my priority list, but the more I work with > > Squeak, the more I notice that the way other apps handle the wheel > makes > > a LOT of sense. Given a choice, I would opt for solid keyboard focus > > every time. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > > University of Florida > > Department of Anesthesiology > > PO Box 100254 > > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > > > >>> gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com 01/21/08 6:27 PM >>> > > I've looked at that, would be nice! Unfortunately, in Squeak, the > mouse > > wheel is simulated as keyboard events. It would require some hacking > to > > pick these up and send to the mouse focus instead. If there is > > sufficient interest I'll take a stab at it. > > > > Thanks. Gary. > > > > ----- Original message ----- > > From: Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > > To: <ui(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > > Sent: Mon, 21 Jan 2008, 20:45:13 GMT > > Subject: [UI] Mouse wheel > > Gary, > > > > I hope this is not a repeat, or worse yet reflective of my not having > > installed a new enough release, but _almost_ as much as I think > keyboard > > focus should be managed very carefully and independent of the mouse > > cursor location, I think the mouse wheel input should follow the mouse > > cursor, even so far as scrolling panes that are not active, and not > even > > part of the active shell. First, I just noticed Ubuntu, its graphical > > terminal, and OpenOffice do this to good effect (as just one example); > > second, if I am typing, mouse movement is probably made to avoid > visual > > distraction from the cursor, if I am turning the mouse wheel, it is > > almost certainly a deliberate action associated with the cursor > > location. Fair? > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > > University of Florida > > Department of Anesthesiology > > PO Box 100254 > > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UI mailing list > > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > > UI mailing list > > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UI mailing list > > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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UI February 2008