UI September 2007

ui@lists.squeakfoundation.org

29 participants
102 discussions

Re: [UI] Well, shall we do something then?
by Bill Schwab 03 Oct '07

03 Oct '07

Jason, Understood/agreed. In fact I would expect to see a MorphicWorldPresenter that would allow one to incorporate morphs into an MVP framework. I probably would start out using Morphic for views, and once that was working, start looking for an alternative. It should be possible to coexist so that: (1) there will be a prayer of people looking at it let alone using it; (2) who wants to start writing an IDE while reworking the GUI =:0 Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> jason.johnson.081(a)gmail.com 09/18/07 1:06 PM >>> On 9/16/07, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > > I am not sure that we are actually trying to ditch Morphic, so much as > offer an alternative to it. With the MVP proposals I don't think we are doing either. I think Morphic could be used for the view if we want. I hope people don't take my questioning of Morphic as an indication that MVP has to replace it. I think these are two totally different issues. > Perhaps we can offer a choice between > Morphic and "The Welch Thing" on a per-use basis. Personally I see this choice as the power of the MVP model. We can create a domain class, a presenter for it and a view (or a few) for each possible View type (e.g. Tweak, Morphic, OpenGL, Seaside?), which can be selected automatically depending on user preferences. _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Well, shall we do something then?
by Bill Schwab 03 Oct '07

03 Oct '07

Todd, I had forgotten about the costumes - now I really want no part of Tweak :( I am not sure that we are actually trying to ditch Morphic, so much as offer an alternative to it. Perhaps we can offer a choice between Morphic and "The Welch Thing" on a per-use basis. If we get it right, the tools will move in our direction, especially with Matt and Colin paying attention to this list. Our work should also be able to co-exist with Morphic to aid those who want to migrate to MVP, but not all at once. Are you certain one needs vectors to get a GUI right? Good layout managers and setting font sizes in #onViewOpened (of MVP fame) should be enough - I think??? I tend to assume that anything beyond the basic widgets goes in an ImagePresenter and as such can scale as needed simply by rendering the image at an appropriate resolution. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> tblanchard(a)mac.com 09/16/07 1:44 PM >>> On Sep 16, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Bill Schwab wrote: > Anyone looking for another reason to at least have a > layer on top of Morphic might consider that Morphic is going to get > clobbered (has already been?) in Croquet. I am not happy about their > reasoning and suspect they will eventually regret the decision; > Morphic > could easily suffer for it. Maybe so. Tweak has a lot of issues of its own IMHO. The division of responsibilities between costume and player is not well understood by most (I haven't found a good explanation anywhere anyhow) and because of this - most external contributions will likely end up bastardized - similar to what happened to Morphic with etoys. > Morphic is certainly not all bad, and in a rewrite scenario, we should > be able to clone (aka steal<g>) quite a lot of code from it, clearly > classifying behavior as belonging to views, interactors (e.g. mouse > tracking) and presenters. A lot of cruft will be left behind. The main problem with trying to ditch Morphic is that you'll end up rewriting all the tools yet again. At least that was my experience with I was experimenting with Bricks. Perhaps ToolBuilder has eliminated that problem. Conclusions I reached were: 1) The graphics model lacks sufficient abstraction for what I was trying to do - too pixel oriented and a vector model is really needed. No abstraction for "shapes" available. 2) Morphic's event delivery model is just weird and difficult to alter because of a lot of special case code for handling halos. -Todd > > Bill > > > > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > >>>> jason.johnson.081(a)gmail.com 09/16/07 8:25 AM >>> > On 9/15/07, Brad Fuller <bradallenfuller(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Warning: I know NOTHING about Dolphin. I haven't even seen it. >> But, as > you >> explain it, it seems like some extra steps to make MVP objects > interactive. >> Morphic objects are by default interactive, with nothing to do to get > there. >> Why would you want a system that makes you perform extra steps? > > Because close coupling (and I'm assuming based on what I've read that > Morphic is closely coupled to the models) makes a less flexable > system. > > The way I personally program any GUI, web or otherwise, is I make my > model classes. These are classes that only understand the work to be > done. They know nothing about "does someone need to confirm this?" or > what order their instance variables might be displayed or anything. > You could call these classes in a background process that has no GUI > components at all. > > Now, there will be lots of different ways of displaying these model > classes and exposing the services they offer. It is very often the > case that different people are going to be interested in different > services. So to support this, the best way I have seen is to have a > "presenter" class that described generically how the class would be > presented to a "third party" if you will [1]. > > And even a given presentation may have different ways to view it (see > Magritte for examples). > >> I agree the event processing in Morphic can be improved. And, from my > small >> experience with it, there are things that need to be fixed. But, why > not put >> energy into improving Morphic? It's already there and MVP seems >> like a > LOT of >> work! > > It will be a lot of work to be sure, but other systems have better > means of doing GUI work right now then Squeak. It's time to catch up. > And I am still asking and not hearing (probably my own fault): what > does Morphic offer? Why bother with the huge clean up it needs? What > power/flexability does it offer that other graphic systems don't have? > > But as has been mentioned by myself and others already, making MVP has > nothing to do with Morphic. Morphic can make a suitable view for the > MVP framework. > > [1] Note that Lukas seemed to arrive at this conclusion independantly > with his Magritte framework that allows you to describe how a model > will be presented, and then it can be viewed via the web, Morphic, > anything that someone has written a "view" for. > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Re: Fwd: Workspace backgrounds - almost there
by Bill Schwab 02 Oct '07

02 Oct '07

I really didn't do much, so the credit belongs to OA (for doing it in Dolphin), Gary for the overall appearance, and Andy Tween's stunning work on Shout. Maybe Andy can give us some advice on where to change background colors. I could live with its being limited to Shout workspaces - especially if the alternative is not having anywhere ;) My only concern re Shout is that I typically do not use the workspace extension, because I often use workspaces (the system window variety) for notes more than code. The ideal solution changes the background of workspaces in inspectors, the debugger, browsers, and workspace system windows. Basically, anywhere do-it and friends are available, the background color is appropriate. If there is a good place to hack to get that effect, I can certainly do it, but it seems that Squeak should be able to do this w/o the need to edit code that is maintained by others. It case you want to reproduce it, the color is Color r:1.0 g:1.0 b:230.0/255 Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> klaus.witzel(a)cobss.com 09/27/07 11:04 PM >>> That looks great ! On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:21:55 +0200, Bill Schwab wrote: > This should do it: > > http://needle.anest.ufl.edu/users/wschwab/UI-almost.png > > Bill > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > >>>> Bill Schwab 9/25/2007 11:16:34 PM >>> > I did some fiddling to try to reproduce the installation problems I > had, added a reminder about the Damien's dev image to the UI swiki page, > downloaded it, and did an installation of Gary's widgets using > Monitcello. Then I moved my BibTeX helper code into the new image. I > appear to have made a happy mistake in the latter, capturing a change > that I considered redundant, and ended up with more or less the visual > changes I was trying to create, and grabbed a screenshot before I had > time to break it :) > > I will probably send it to Gary as a start. What is the proper way to > make it available? I suppose the easiest thing is to put it on my web > page, but I have not yet learned how to use Linux to remotely access our > servers, so I can't do that right now. > > When it becomes available, you will notice the background color of the > browser's and debugger's code pane. I would hope for the debugger's > inspector panes to be so colored also, though they currently show it > only for the top line. Ironically, the workspace in the image is not > correctly colored, though a newly-created instance has the correct > color, though, as in the debugger's inspectors, it shows the color only > to a point, after which the default white takes over. > > Again, this is not a super big deal, but I find that similar changes > that OA made to Dolphin long ago grew on me. > > Bill _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Fwd: Workspace backgrounds - almost there
by Bill Schwab 02 Oct '07

02 Oct '07

I knew I missed a question in my global reply - the corner handles. They do not particularly bother me (I almost like them actually), but if they go away, I won't scream about it. Now that you mention it, you're right, they are ugly ;) Gary, something I just noticed is that the soft squeak theme leaves the [x] button on the left of the title bar. I _think_ I would move it to he right. That said, I gladly defer to you judgement. BTW, I continue to be impressed with your work. For reasons unknown, I switched back to the Vistary theme and noted that you obviously can move the close button; at first, I assumed you simply didn't mess with the locations. I would use the Vistary theme, but I find the buttons difficult to read due to the lens effect, or more to the point, its location. Of course, that is largely a result of what you set out to emulate. I can envision writing a hybrid theme that has lens effects near rectangle bounds, but that can wait. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> asqueaker(a)gmail.com 09/27/07 10:10 PM >>> Looks real good Bill! I especially like highlighting the items in Lists the same as text highlighted in a text pane; a big improvement over the red-on-gray list selections of past. Do you have a mind to ditch the corner handles? Aren't they ugly? Not to mention redundant with the changing of the mouse-pointer. I've also noticed (in 3.9 images) they creep out of their bounds under certain circumstances like too small a window-title font, or maybe square window corners too.. On 9/27/07, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > This should do it: > > http://needle.anest.ufl.edu/users/wschwab/UI-almost.png > > Bill > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > > >>> Bill Schwab 9/25/2007 11:16:34 PM >>> > I did some fiddling to try to reproduce the installation problems I > had, added a reminder about the Damien's dev image to the UI swiki page, > downloaded it, and did an installation of Gary's widgets using > Monitcello. Then I moved my BibTeX helper code into the new image. I > appear to have made a happy mistake in the latter, capturing a change > that I considered redundant, and ended up with more or less the visual > changes I was trying to create, and grabbed a screenshot before I had > time to break it :) > > I will probably send it to Gary as a start. What is the proper way to > make it available? I suppose the easiest thing is to put it on my web > page, but I have not yet learned how to use Linux to remotely access our > servers, so I can't do that right now. > > When it becomes available, you will notice the background color of the > browser's and debugger's code pane. I would hope for the debugger's > inspector panes to be so colored also, though they currently show it > only for the top line. Ironically, the workspace in the image is not > correctly colored, though a newly-created instance has the correct > color, though, as in the debugger's inspectors, it shows the color only > to a point, after which the default white takes over. > > Again, this is not a super big deal, but I find that similar changes > that OA made to Dolphin long ago grew on me. > > Bill > > > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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IDE extensions
by Bill Schwab 01 Oct '07

01 Oct '07

Another Dolphin concept that Squeak would do well to emulate is triggering an event when new tool shells are opened. This allows easy creation of extensions to the IDE, w/o having to modify base system code that can clash with future updates. Any time a relevant shell is opened, it triggers #viewOpened: off of its _class_, with itself as an argument. Then one can do things like Debugger when:#viewOpened: send:#hackDebuggerMenu to:self to modify menus, etc. It might be of greater utility in Dolphin than in Squeak, but any gaps might stimulate improvements in Squeak. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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Re: [UI] Squeak UI/Usability Design
by Bill Schwab 29 Sep '07

29 Sep '07

Every so often, I get tricked by the reply going to other than the list, and I think this was one of them - aka, sorry if this is duplicated. I agree, but (with no offense to Craig), suspect it will be Pavel who enables the transformation. Either way, it will be good for Squeak, and interesting to watch. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> gary(a)pinesoft.co.uk 09/21/07 5:07 AM >>> +1 more... On Friday 21 September 2007 3:33 am, Chris Muller wrote: > +one million. > > Don't worry Geert. I believe this is the only possible outcome for > Squeak; by the very nature of its malleability, people are *able* to > reject that which is not to their taste, no matter how > well-intentioned the forces seeking "a ONE true, grand, ultimate > image" are. > > Even with billions invested by big companies like Sun and Microsoft > could not stop forks of their flagships. > > Squeak will ultimately embrace that which it cannot prevent. I think > Craig will ultimately make his technology easily consumable and we > will witness a significant transformation of Squeak. > > - Chris > > On 9/20/07, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Don't get me wrong, I reckon the work Gary has done with his UI > > Enhancements is > > a great start and it actually showed me the true potential of Squeak. > > > > Squeak should be all about choice. I reckon the Squeak image should be > > stripped > > down to the bare minimum with a package loader allowing the user to > > choose what > > they want in their image. It is in people's nature to resists change and > > therefore I think it's important that the user should be given the choice > > how to > > interact with their Squeak image - current Morphic package or some new, > > different more user friendly Morphic package. > > _______________________________________________ > > UI mailing list > > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui Pinesoft Computers are registered in England, Registered number: 2914825. Registered office: 266-268 High Street, Waltham Cross, Herts, EN8 7EA This message has been scanned for viruses by BlackSpider MailControl - www.blackspider.com _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Fwd: Workspace backgrounds - almost there
by Bill Schwab 29 Sep '07

29 Sep '07

Gang, No offense taken :) Basically, I am simply trying to get close to some simple but (IMHO at least) useful eye-strain-reduction changes - stuff that OA did (for whatever reason) a long time ago in Dolphin. I won't hold my breath until this works, but it would be nice to be able to do. Basically, I want to make all of the workspaces (browser, debugger, inspectors, etc.) have a ledger background (exact color will be forthcoming). Squeak has been resisting my attempts to change it. In doing some fiddling, I accidentally reloaded some old changes that got pretty close, hence the picture before I messed it up. A theme? Not really, but that might be a nice way to package it. Did I miss any questions? Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> gary(a)pinesoft.co.uk 9/28/2007 10:18:26 AM >>> Oops, sorry, I meant Bill! On Friday 28 September 2007 4:13 pm, Brad Fuller wrote: > On Fri September 28 2007, you wrote: > > What was it that you wanted to achieve Brad? Pinesoft Computers are registered in England, Registered number: 2914825. Registered office: 266-268 High Street, Waltham Cross, Herts, EN8 7EA This message has been scanned for viruses by BlackSpider MailControl - www.blackspider.com _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Fwd: Workspace backgrounds - almost there
by Bill Schwab 28 Sep '07

28 Sep '07

This should do it: http://needle.anest.ufl.edu/users/wschwab/UI-almost.png Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> Bill Schwab 9/25/2007 11:16:34 PM >>> I did some fiddling to try to reproduce the installation problems I had, added a reminder about the Damien's dev image to the UI swiki page, downloaded it, and did an installation of Gary's widgets using Monitcello. Then I moved my BibTeX helper code into the new image. I appear to have made a happy mistake in the latter, capturing a change that I considered redundant, and ended up with more or less the visual changes I was trying to create, and grabbed a screenshot before I had time to break it :) I will probably send it to Gary as a start. What is the proper way to make it available? I suppose the easiest thing is to put it on my web page, but I have not yet learned how to use Linux to remotely access our servers, so I can't do that right now. When it becomes available, you will notice the background color of the browser's and debugger's code pane. I would hope for the debugger's inspector panes to be so colored also, though they currently show it only for the top line. Ironically, the workspace in the image is not correctly colored, though a newly-created instance has the correct color, though, as in the debugger's inspectors, it shows the color only to a point, after which the default white takes over. Again, this is not a super big deal, but I find that similar changes that OA made to Dolphin long ago grew on me. Bill

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Fwd: TestRunner loses filter pane after loading UI Themes and Widgets, squeak dev image
by Damien Cassou 27 Sep '07

27 Sep '07

I confirm this behavior. Thank you for the bug report. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Matthias Berth <matthias.berth(a)googlemail.com> Date: 18 sept. 2007 12:55 Subject: TestRunner loses filter pane after loading UI Themes and Widgets, squeak dev image To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> Hello, I am using the most recent squeak-dev image. The TestRunner GUI for SUnit has a nice filter panel in the top-left. After I loaded the User Interface enhancements from the Package Universe ( http://www.squeaksource.com/UIEnhancements/Pinesoft-Widgets-gvc.234.mcz ) the pane is no longer there. So no test classes are selected, and nothing is shown in the other panes. Before that I was using UI enhancements and TestRunner without problems (in an older image derived from the squeak-dev image). The Mantis issue is at: http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6677 Is it just me, or is anybody else having that problem? Matthias -- Damien Cassou

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ALT+. unavailable anymore
by Damien Cassou 27 Sep '07

27 Sep '07

Hi, Alexandre Bergel submitted the following bug for you: http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6700. ALT+. can't be used anymore when UIEnhancements is loaded (see my comments on the bug report). -- Damien Cassou

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UI September 2007