Current status about gettext:

- Gettext files named without white space, and sorted by keyword were checked in po/ directory in svn repository. http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ - Also I noticed the repository to the fedora bugzilla https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=253176#c6 - Spanish translation was merged to the svn http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/3276 but not in the image yet.

Cheers, - Takashi

Takashi Yamamiya wrote:

Hi Bert,

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

I published a CS that uses underscores instead of spaces. Would be nice if you could re-export the translations.

I will do,

...

When I tested this, I noticed that the order of entries changed, giving a lot of false positives when diffing versions. I think the entries in a file should be sorted somehow ...

Yes, sorting entries would be fine.

...

Also, do we have anything in the image yet that uses these translations?

Not yet. Actually I think I had one fault. I should have uploaded .po files into svn repository instead of git, so that we can easily synchronize the image and gettext files when release build process automatically.

Hi Takashi,

Don't you think the translations.launchpad is a clear, easier way for everyone who wants to contribute?

cheers, Paulo

On Sep 17, 2007, at 12:15 AM, Takashi Yamamiya wrote:

Current status about gettext:

• Gettext files named without white space, and sorted by keyword were checked in po/ directory in svn repository. http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/
• Also I noticed the repository to the fedora bugzilla https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=253176#c6
• Spanish translation was merged to the svn http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/3276 but not in the image yet.

Cheers,

• Takashi

Takashi Yamamiya wrote:

...

Hi Bert,

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

I published a CS that uses underscores instead of spaces. Would be nice if you could re-export the translations.

I will do,

...

When I tested this, I noticed that the order of entries changed, giving a lot of false positives when diffing versions. I think the entries in a file should be sorted somehow ...

Yes, sorting entries would be fine.

...

Also, do we have anything in the image yet that uses these translations?

Not yet. Actually I think I had one fault. I should have uploaded .po files into svn repository instead of git, so that we can easily synchronize the image and gettext files when release build process automatically.

---

Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys

Takashi & Paulo,

I agree that launchpad is *way* more friendly and useful than fedora's site (at least in it's curernt state). Not only because it's web based (less shuffling around of files, possibly messing up encodings and other nuances) but you can pull strings from an apparently vast set of previous translations... allowing greater consistency of protocols and idioms for each language.

Given that Etoys is highly fragmented (lots of POTs) and if each pot is translated by a different translator the risks of ending up with a fully de-localized etoys is high...

iow, it will all be in a given language, but with no consistency for terms, objects and 'messages'. It may end up being a useless environment that nobody but a fully bilingual 'developer' that can translate back into english and map it into their knowledge of the environment will be able to profit from (I've witnessed those kind of 'localizations', and they are not nice)

My question is: how will we manage?

Having etoys' POTs 'hosted' in both is confusing because we have no clear flow for either plus (personally) I have no clue how will the integration work. So I can't even start telling other translators or posting on the wiki how to go around collaborating....

BTW, this applies not only to etoys, but all other l10n stuff...

Cheers, Xavier

On Monday 17 September 2007 16:11, Takashi Yamamiya wrote: TY> Hi Paulo, TY> TY> Paulo Drummond wrote: TY> > Hi Takashi, TY> > TY> > Don't you think the translations.launchpad is a clear, TY> > easier way for everyone who wants to contribute? TY> TY> Yes, Maybe... TY> TY> Because I'm not sure what is the best way to manage our TY> translations, so I set up two options at Fedora site (as a TY> good citizen in OLPC community) and launchpad (nice web ui). TY> You can use either way for a while, and we would choose one TY> of them later. TY> TY> - http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys TY> - https://translations.launchpad.net/etoys/ TY> TY> Any way, the master is http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ TY> I will merge into here by my hand at first. TY> TY> Now we have two different aspect of issues. One is a just TY> technical issue, our gettext support isn't good enough yet. TY> Other one is translation process, we need to make clear how TY> to adjust each translation volunteers. TY> TY> Cheers, TY> - Takashi TY> TY> _______________________________________________ TY> Etoys mailing list TY> Etoys@lists.laptop.org TY> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys TY>

Maybe we should remove the translations from fedora and just put up a notice to use launchpad? I can see how two different places might be confusing, leading to doubled effort. And suppose we actually get two different translations - which do we prefer?

- Bert -

On Sep 18, 2007, at 2:18 , Paulo Drummond wrote:

Xavi, Tak —

Here is what I will do:

I will continue my contributions using lunchpad; at least to review my own translations from past 2-3 years and — with the help of some folks who are directly using it with children and their XOs — fill most of the blanks in, say, two weeks. Then we can point a revision group to consolidate the whole 'trunk' in a given date.

— paulo

On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Xavier Alvarez wrote:

...

Takashi & Paulo,

I agree that launchpad is *way* more friendly and useful than fedora's site (at least in it's curernt state). Not only because it's web based (less shuffling around of files, possibly messing up encodings and other nuances) but you can pull strings from an apparently vast set of previous translations... allowing greater consistency of protocols and idioms for each language.

Given that Etoys is highly fragmented (lots of POTs) and if each pot is translated by a different translator the risks of ending up with a fully de-localized etoys is high...

iow, it will all be in a given language, but with no consistency for terms, objects and 'messages'. It may end up being a useless environment that nobody but a fully bilingual 'developer' that can translate back into english and map it into their knowledge of the environment will be able to profit from (I've witnessed those kind of 'localizations', and they are not nice)

My question is: how will we manage?

Having etoys' POTs 'hosted' in both is confusing because we have no clear flow for either plus (personally) I have no clue how will the integration work. So I can't even start telling other translators or posting on the wiki how to go around collaborating....

BTW, this applies not only to etoys, but all other l10n stuff...

Cheers, Xavier

On Monday 17 September 2007 16:11, Takashi Yamamiya wrote: TY> Hi Paulo, TY> TY> Paulo Drummond wrote: TY> > Hi Takashi, TY> > TY> > Don't you think the translations.launchpad is a clear, TY> > easier way for everyone who wants to contribute? TY> TY> Yes, Maybe... TY> TY> Because I'm not sure what is the best way to manage our TY> translations, so I set up two options at Fedora site (as a TY> good citizen in OLPC community) and launchpad (nice web ui). TY> You can use either way for a while, and we would choose one TY> of them later. TY> TY> - http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys TY> - https://translations.launchpad.net/etoys/ TY> TY> Any way, the master is http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ TY> I will merge into here by my hand at first. TY> TY> Now we have two different aspect of issues. One is a just TY> technical issue, our gettext support isn't good enough yet. TY> Other one is translation process, we need to make clear how TY> to adjust each translation volunteers. TY> TY> Cheers, TY> - Takashi

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Hi,

I have been working in translations in the past and I agree about off-line tools instead of on-line ones. Would be nice to have some easy control version system like bazaar that can help in synchronizing activities using off-line tools, instead of relying on on-line ones.

Cheers,

Offray

Jim Gettys wrote:

Hmmm... Last I knew (a couple years ago), the impression I was left with was that rosetta wasn't very friendly to offline translators; we have a situation, particularly initially, where many of the potential contributors to translations may find a web site both expensive and slow, and may prefer to use some of the offline translation tools (pootle or kbabel).

I don't pretend to know the needs of a translation community: we should optimize toward their work-flow, and adapt to suit. And we need to remember the needs of offline translators, who don't yet have regular, economic network access. - Jim

On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 09:36 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

Maybe we should remove the translations from fedora and just put up a notice to use launchpad? I can see how two different places might be confusing, leading to doubled effort. And suppose we actually get two different translations - which do we prefer?

• Bert -

On Sep 18, 2007, at 2:18 , Paulo Drummond wrote:

...

Xavi, Tak —

Here is what I will do:

I will continue my contributions using lunchpad; at least to review my own translations from past 2-3 years and — with the help of some folks who are directly using it with children and their XOs — fill most of the blanks in, say, two weeks. Then we can point a revision group to consolidate the whole 'trunk' in a given date.

— paulo

On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Xavier Alvarez wrote:

...

Takashi & Paulo,

I agree that launchpad is *way* more friendly and useful than fedora's site (at least in it's curernt state). Not only because it's web based (less shuffling around of files, possibly messing up encodings and other nuances) but you can pull strings from an apparently vast set of previous translations... allowing greater consistency of protocols and idioms for each language.

Given that Etoys is highly fragmented (lots of POTs) and if each pot is translated by a different translator the risks of ending up with a fully de-localized etoys is high...

iow, it will all be in a given language, but with no consistency for terms, objects and 'messages'. It may end up being a useless environment that nobody but a fully bilingual 'developer' that can translate back into english and map it into their knowledge of the environment will be able to profit from (I've witnessed those kind of 'localizations', and they are not nice)

My question is: how will we manage?

Having etoys' POTs 'hosted' in both is confusing because we have no clear flow for either plus (personally) I have no clue how will the integration work. So I can't even start telling other translators or posting on the wiki how to go around collaborating....

BTW, this applies not only to etoys, but all other l10n stuff...

Cheers, Xavier

On Monday 17 September 2007 16:11, Takashi Yamamiya wrote: TY> Hi Paulo, TY> TY> Paulo Drummond wrote: TY> > Hi Takashi, TY> > TY> > Don't you think the translations.launchpad is a clear, TY> > easier way for everyone who wants to contribute? TY> TY> Yes, Maybe... TY> TY> Because I'm not sure what is the best way to manage our TY> translations, so I set up two options at Fedora site (as a TY> good citizen in OLPC community) and launchpad (nice web ui). TY> You can use either way for a while, and we would choose one TY> of them later. TY> TY> - http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys TY> - https://translations.launchpad.net/etoys/ TY> TY> Any way, the master is http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ TY> I will merge into here by my hand at first. TY> TY> Now we have two different aspect of issues. One is a just TY> technical issue, our gettext support isn't good enough yet. TY> Other one is translation process, we need to make clear how TY> to adjust each translation volunteers. TY> TY> Cheers, TY> - Takashi

---

Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

So you're saying we should rather ditch launchpad because it is online-only, yes?

• Bert -

Well, if there is no way to synchronize off-line work with launchpad, then yes. I don't know for all translators, but translation is one of these activities that I and some friends can do almost off-line and with a good dictionary at hand and I'm agree about that the process and tools should suit and integrate with the workflow of translators community, instead of the other way around.

Cheers,

Offray

On Sep 18, 2007, at 4:57 , Offray Vladimir Luna Cardenas wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Hi,

I have been working in translations in the past and I agree about off-line tools instead of on-line ones. Would be nice to have some easy control version system like bazaar that can help in synchronizing activities using off-line tools, instead of relying on on-line ones.

Cheers,

Offray

Jim Gettys wrote:

...

Hmmm... Last I knew (a couple years ago), the impression I was left with was that rosetta wasn't very friendly to offline translators; we have a situation, particularly initially, where many of the potential contributors to translations may find a web site both expensive and slow, and may prefer to use some of the offline translation tools (pootle or kbabel).

I don't pretend to know the needs of a translation community: we should optimize toward their work-flow, and adapt to suit. And we need to remember the needs of offline translators, who don't yet have regular, economic network access. - Jim

On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 09:36 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

Maybe we should remove the translations from fedora and just put up a notice to use launchpad? I can see how two different places might be confusing, leading to doubled effort. And suppose we actually get two different translations - which do we prefer?

• Bert -

On Sep 18, 2007, at 2:18 , Paulo Drummond wrote:

...

Xavi, Tak —

Here is what I will do:

I will continue my contributions using lunchpad; at least to review my own translations from past 2-3 years and — with the help of some folks who are directly using it with children and their XOs — fill most of the blanks in, say, two weeks. Then we can point a revision group to consolidate the whole 'trunk' in a given date.

— paulo

On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Xavier Alvarez wrote:

...

Takashi & Paulo,

I agree that launchpad is *way* more friendly and useful than fedora's site (at least in it's curernt state). Not only because it's web based (less shuffling around of files, possibly messing up encodings and other nuances) but you can pull strings from an apparently vast set of previous translations... allowing greater consistency of protocols and idioms for each language.

Given that Etoys is highly fragmented (lots of POTs) and if each pot is translated by a different translator the risks of ending up with a fully de-localized etoys is high...

iow, it will all be in a given language, but with no consistency for terms, objects and 'messages'. It may end up being a useless environment that nobody but a fully bilingual 'developer' that can translate back into english and map it into their knowledge of the environment will be able to profit from (I've witnessed those kind of 'localizations', and they are not nice)

My question is: how will we manage?

Having etoys' POTs 'hosted' in both is confusing because we have no clear flow for either plus (personally) I have no clue how will the integration work. So I can't even start telling other translators or posting on the wiki how to go around collaborating....

BTW, this applies not only to etoys, but all other l10n stuff...

Cheers, Xavier

On Monday 17 September 2007 16:11, Takashi Yamamiya wrote: TY> Hi Paulo, TY> TY> Paulo Drummond wrote: TY> > Hi Takashi, TY> > TY> > Don't you think the translations.launchpad is a clear, TY> > easier way for everyone who wants to contribute? TY> TY> Yes, Maybe... TY> TY> Because I'm not sure what is the best way to manage our TY> translations, so I set up two options at Fedora site (as a TY> good citizen in OLPC community) and launchpad (nice web ui). TY> You can use either way for a while, and we would choose one TY> of them later. TY> TY> - http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys TY> - https://translations.launchpad.net/etoys/ TY> TY> Any way, the master is http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ TY> I will merge into here by my hand at first. TY> TY> Now we have two different aspect of issues. One is a just TY> technical issue, our gettext support isn't good enough yet. TY> Other one is translation process, we need to make clear how TY> to adjust each translation volunteers. TY> TY> Cheers, TY> - Takashi

---

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Juliano Bittencourt wrote:

I think that the launchpad web interface makes the life much easier to non-technical translators. It's much more user friendly than fedoras system (at least in this stage of development). I've being using both to create the pt_BR translation of the interface, and my experience with launchpad has a much higher fun factor. You don't have to know anything about pot, po and mo. Here in Porto Alegre - Brazil, we don't have problems with Internet access, so the user experience with web interfaces is not a problem. But I completely understand the problem of offline translators. It is not possible to use the launchpad web interface and synchronize the results thought SVN with the offline translators?

Best,

Juliano

As far as I know, launchpad is not an open source project. In particular its model of storage is not known and is not possible to extract/synchronize data against it. Relying on Non Open Source infraestructure for open source development can be a long term problem, as bitkeeper issue shown with linux kernel development. I think that we need alternative methods.

Cheers,

Offray

Bert Freudenberg escreveu:

...

So you're saying we should rather ditch launchpad because it is online-only, yes?

• Bert -

On Sep 18, 2007, at 4:57 , Offray Vladimir Luna Cardenas wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Hi,

I have been working in translations in the past and I agree about off-line tools instead of on-line ones. Would be nice to have some easy control version system like bazaar that can help in synchronizing activities using off-line tools, instead of relying on on-line ones.

Cheers,

Offray

Jim Gettys wrote:

...

Hmmm... Last I knew (a couple years ago), the impression I was left with was that rosetta wasn't very friendly to offline translators; we have a situation, particularly initially, where many of the potential contributors to translations may find a web site both expensive and slow, and may prefer to use some of the offline translation tools (pootle or kbabel).

I don't pretend to know the needs of a translation community: we should optimize toward their work-flow, and adapt to suit. And we need to remember the needs of offline translators, who don't yet have regular, economic network access. - Jim

On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 09:36 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

Maybe we should remove the translations from fedora and just put up a notice to use launchpad? I can see how two different places might be confusing, leading to doubled effort. And suppose we actually get two different translations - which do we prefer?

• Bert -

On Sep 18, 2007, at 2:18 , Paulo Drummond wrote:

...

Xavi, Tak —

Here is what I will do:

I will continue my contributions using lunchpad; at least to review my own translations from past 2-3 years and — with the help of some folks who are directly using it with children and their XOs — fill most of the blanks in, say, two weeks. Then we can point a revision group to consolidate the whole 'trunk' in a given date.

— paulo

On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Xavier Alvarez wrote:

> Takashi & Paulo, > > I agree that launchpad is *way* more friendly and useful than > fedora's site (at least in it's curernt state). Not only because > it's web based (less shuffling around of files, possibly messing > up encodings and other nuances) but you can pull strings from an > apparently vast set of previous translations... allowing greater > consistency of protocols and idioms for each language. > > Given that Etoys is highly fragmented (lots of POTs) and if each > pot is translated by a different translator the risks of ending > up with a fully de-localized etoys is high... > > iow, it will all be in a given language, but with no consistency > for terms, objects and 'messages'. It may end up being a useless > environment that nobody but a fully bilingual 'developer' that > can translate back into english and map it into their knowledge > of the environment will be able to profit from (I've witnessed > those kind of 'localizations', and they are not nice) > > My question is: how will we manage? > > Having etoys' POTs 'hosted' in both is confusing because we have > no clear flow for either plus (personally) I have no clue how > will the integration work. So I can't even start telling other > translators or posting on the wiki how to go around > collaborating.... > > BTW, this applies not only to etoys, but all other l10n stuff... > > > Cheers, > Xavier > > > On Monday 17 September 2007 16:11, Takashi Yamamiya wrote: > TY> Hi Paulo, > TY> > TY> Paulo Drummond wrote: > TY> > Hi Takashi, > TY> > > TY> > Don't you think the translations.launchpad is a clear, > TY> > easier way for everyone who wants to contribute? > TY> > TY> Yes, Maybe... > TY> > TY> Because I'm not sure what is the best way to manage our > TY> translations, so I set up two options at Fedora site (as a > TY> good citizen in OLPC community) and launchpad (nice web ui). > TY> You can use either way for a while, and we would choose one > TY> of them later. > TY> > TY> - http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys > TY> - https://translations.launchpad.net/etoys/ > TY> > TY> Any way, the master is > http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ > TY> I will merge into here by my hand at first. > TY> > TY> Now we have two different aspect of issues. One is a just > TY> technical issue, our gettext support isn't good enough yet. > TY> Other one is translation process, we need to make clear how > TY> to adjust each translation volunteers. > TY> > TY> Cheers, > TY> - Takashi >

---

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---

Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys

Imo, open-source 'whatever' doesn't absolutely mean reliable, consistent, problem-free, ethernal; it does mean open, and that's good. Launchpad is a project sponsored by Canonical (the same company that sponsors Ubuntu), so there's little reason for f.u.d. about it.

As I told recently, I'm stick with it, as long I believe those translations are merged in etoys/constructo by the development team (read Takashi, Yoshiki, Bert...)

— paulo

On Sep 18, 2007, at 1:55 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cardenas wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Juliano Bittencourt wrote:

...

I think that the launchpad web interface makes the life much easier to non-technical translators. It's much more user friendly than fedoras system (at least in this stage of development). I've being using both to create the pt_BR translation of the interface, and my experience with launchpad has a much higher fun factor. You don't have to know anything about pot, po and mo. Here in Porto Alegre - Brazil, we don't have problems with Internet access, so the user experience with web interfaces is not a problem. But I completely understand the problem of offline translators. It is not possible to use the launchpad web interface and synchronize the results thought SVN with the offline translators?

Best,

Juliano

As far as I know, launchpad is not an open source project. In particular its model of storage is not known and is not possible to extract/synchronize data against it. Relying on Non Open Source infraestructure for open source development can be a long term problem, as bitkeeper issue shown with linux kernel development. I think that we need alternative methods.

Cheers,

Offray

...

Bert Freudenberg escreveu:

...

So you're saying we should rather ditch launchpad because it is online-only, yes?

• Bert -

On Sep 18, 2007, at 4:57 , Offray Vladimir Luna Cardenas wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Hi,

I have been working in translations in the past and I agree about off-line tools instead of on-line ones. Would be nice to have some easy control version system like bazaar that can help in synchronizing activities using off-line tools, instead of relying on on-line ones.

Cheers,

Offray

Jim Gettys wrote:

...

Hmmm... Last I knew (a couple years ago), the impression I was left with was that rosetta wasn't very friendly to offline translators; we have a situation, particularly initially, where many of the potential contributors to translations may find a web site both expensive and slow, and may prefer to use some of the offline translation tools (pootle or kbabel).

I don't pretend to know the needs of a translation community: we should optimize toward their work-flow, and adapt to suit. And we need to remember the needs of offline translators, who don't yet have regular, economic network access. - Jim

On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 09:36 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

Maybe we should remove the translations from fedora and just put up a notice to use launchpad? I can see how two different places might be confusing, leading to doubled effort. And suppose we actually get two different translations - which do we prefer?

• Bert -

On Sep 18, 2007, at 2:18 , Paulo Drummond wrote:

> Xavi, Tak — > > Here is what I will do: > > I will continue my contributions using lunchpad; at least to > review > my own translations from past 2-3 years and — with the help > of some > folks who are directly using it with children and their XOs — > fill > most of the blanks in, say, two weeks. Then we can point a > revision > group to consolidate the whole 'trunk' in a given date. > > — paulo > > On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Xavier Alvarez wrote: > > >> Takashi & Paulo, >> >> I agree that launchpad is *way* more friendly and useful than >> fedora's site (at least in it's curernt state). Not only >> because >> it's web based (less shuffling around of files, possibly >> messing >> up encodings and other nuances) but you can pull strings >> from an >> apparently vast set of previous translations... allowing >> greater >> consistency of protocols and idioms for each language. >> >> Given that Etoys is highly fragmented (lots of POTs) and if >> each >> pot is translated by a different translator the risks of ending >> up with a fully de-localized etoys is high... >> >> iow, it will all be in a given language, but with no >> consistency >> for terms, objects and 'messages'. It may end up being a >> useless >> environment that nobody but a fully bilingual 'developer' that >> can translate back into english and map it into their knowledge >> of the environment will be able to profit from (I've witnessed >> those kind of 'localizations', and they are not nice) >> >> My question is: how will we manage? >> >> Having etoys' POTs 'hosted' in both is confusing because we >> have >> no clear flow for either plus (personally) I have no clue how >> will the integration work. So I can't even start telling other >> translators or posting on the wiki how to go around >> collaborating.... >> >> BTW, this applies not only to etoys, but all other l10n >> stuff... >> >> >> Cheers, >> Xavier >> >> >> On Monday 17 September 2007 16:11, Takashi Yamamiya wrote: >> TY> Hi Paulo, >> TY> >> TY> Paulo Drummond wrote: >> TY> > Hi Takashi, >> TY> > >> TY> > Don't you think the translations.launchpad is a clear, >> TY> > easier way for everyone who wants to contribute? >> TY> >> TY> Yes, Maybe... >> TY> >> TY> Because I'm not sure what is the best way to manage our >> TY> translations, so I set up two options at Fedora site (as a >> TY> good citizen in OLPC community) and launchpad (nice web >> ui). >> TY> You can use either way for a while, and we would choose one >> TY> of them later. >> TY> >> TY> - http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys >> TY> - https://translations.launchpad.net/etoys/ >> TY> >> TY> Any way, the master is >> http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ >> TY> I will merge into here by my hand at first. >> TY> >> TY> Now we have two different aspect of issues. One is a just >> TY> technical issue, our gettext support isn't good enough yet. >> TY> Other one is translation process, we need to make clear how >> TY> to adjust each translation volunteers. >> TY> >> TY> Cheers, >> TY> - Takashi >>

---

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---

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFG71oxpzl8tTvDAE8RAqJyAKDQC2TrDtq4A8Fw6z341Iuefvb9PQCcDSeU v1nfVr9TZxijFYGuXp8JB5s= =jQyj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys

On Sep 18, 2007, at 21:17 , Xavier Alvarez wrote:

PS: Etoys has been pulled out of fedora's site...

I don't think so:

http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys

- Bert -

...

PS: Etoys has been pulled out of fedora's site...

I don't think so:

http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys

I know sometimes it doesn't work correctly, maybe it is because transition from git to svn.

You can download the master translation files from http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ The fedora site is just a mirror of the repository.

Let's try the launchpad. How about this process?

1. Upload latest .pot or .po from the svn repository to the launchpad. I think everyone can upload it if I am lazy. 2. Make and discuss new translations with web interface. 3. When some work finished, report as a ticket (or mail to the list). Because there are so many .po files, I can't notice about new file by myself. 4. The new file is committed the svn by a developer (maybe me).

Although, some of you feel confusing because we have both launchpad and fedora site, well, I prefer to delay the decision a while...

Cheers, - Takashi

On Sep 19, 2007, at 16:24 , Xavier Alvarez wrote:

On Tuesday 18 September 2007 18:28, Takashi Yamamiya wrote: TY> >> PS: Etoys has been pulled out of fedora's site... TY> > TY> > I don't think so: TY> > TY> > http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys TY> TY> I know sometimes it doesn't work correctly, maybe it is TY> because transition from git to svn. TY> TY> You can download the master translation files from TY> http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ TY> The fedora site is just a mirror of the repository.

Apparently the fedora site now pulls directly from our svn repository.

There were a whole bunch of .es.po included in the zip in ticket #3518 - that are still in the limbo (on Fedora Etoys has been 'popping ing and out', as if undecided on staying or leaving ;)

That was because we moved the po files from git to svn and fedora first pulled from git and then from svn.

but never with the 'updated' POs...

According to the svn logs they should be there.

TY> 2. Make and discuss new translations with web interface. TY> 3. When some work finished, report as a ticket (or mail to TY> the list). Because there are so many .po files, I can't TY> notice about new file by myself. TY> 4. The new file is committed the svn by a developer (maybe TY> me). TY> TY> Although, some of you feel confusing because we have both TY> launchpad and fedora site,

I'm confused :) That's my natural state, but the more I try to figure things out, the more confused I get (that is not so natural ;)

I have no problem posting to the wiki that eToys will be only using launchpad; write, web, sugar, etc. will be in fedora, and so for each activity. But currently nobody can know if they'll work in vain...

I think I'd prefer this, using launchpad exclusively. As far as I can tell it is also possible to download and upload po files, so offline work is possible with it.

Working in vein (iow, redoing previously work done by others) is very common when you are new to something and ignore the procedures... but when there are no real working procedures (and you find out) that is something that frustrates everybody.

Etoys used its own translation system previously. We only just switched to po files, and need to become familiar with the process ourselves.

So, could we at least get an ad-hoc, per-activity, set of directives that will enable l10n to actually make it full-circle:

• in a decent amount of time (or if it's > 24hs explicit)
• in a predictable way

(by full circle I mean that a translator will actually download or look at the latest versions, not prehistoric ones, and actually build on top of the work of others thus having a community).

TY>well, I prefer to delay the TY> decision a while...

If it helps, here's my vote (not based on the technical) and regarding Etoys:

• ditch fedora (maybe even remove it's listing in the l10n to

avoid confusion, or until it syncs ok)

• use launchpad

Agreed, but I'd defer the decision to Takashi.

PS: I've started using some OBXes in the wiki for tracking activities (and their l10n), Etoys was one of the updated pages, and now we have *lots* (maybe too many?) categories of missing POT & PO (per language) so when a translator shows up we'll be able to tell them: check [[Category:such lang-xx]] to find what is missing... it would be nice if their work could be integrated.

I have no idea what an OBX is and why some languages are missing - looks fine at launchpad and in svn.

- Bert -

On Sep 19, 2007, at 20:43 , Xavier Alvarez wrote:

It keeps on popping in-and-out of fedora... currently doesn't show in http://translate.fedoraproject.org/languages/es/olpc

Then I have no idea why.

But did the POs in the ticket made it? (as far as I can tell no, but I could be really confused :)

They look very different indeed. Maybe Takashi imported and exported your files? That would make them appear very different. Takashi?

Languages are missing because Etoys has {en, es, fr, pt} and {de, ja} but the XO would need also: {am, ar, ha, ig, ne, ro, ru, rw, th, ur, yo} which is list of languages in the green countries. I'm trying to confirm this list, but the idea is to know the status of l10n regardless of the specific tracking sites.

Seems useful, yes - where can I see that progress tracker?

- Bert -

Jim,

Here is the thing:

Launchpad (for the seek of simplicity) apparently works fine. We translators just want a place where our contributions are effectively ported and used. Actually, I don't care if it is slow or give me four or five steps to get my contributions done. Translations are just static strings that are eventually merged into the application (via svn or whatever). The bottom line here is its usability and correctness as much as possible.

We like to contribute in a clear, simple, straightforward way. And it seems to me that launchpad is a good example of this. It may not be the best, completely open-source whatever... but then, again, so what?

What I wrote before is that I translated some 3000+ words/strings for the Squeak Etoys interface in the past, and I am now focused — with the help of folks in Porto Alegre, Brazil — to continue reviewing and completing the long remaining list.

cheers, Paulo

On Sep 18, 2007, at 8:55 AM, Jim Gettys wrote:

Hmmm... Last I knew (a couple years ago), the impression I was left with was that rosetta wasn't very friendly to offline translators; we have a situation, particularly initially, where many of the potential contributors to translations may find a web site both expensive and slow, and may prefer to use some of the offline translation tools (pootle or kbabel).

I don't pretend to know the needs of a translation community: we should optimize toward their work-flow, and adapt to suit. And we need to remember the needs of offline translators, who don't yet have regular, economic network access. - Jim

On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 09:36 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

Maybe we should remove the translations from fedora and just put up a notice to use launchpad? I can see how two different places might be confusing, leading to doubled effort. And suppose we actually get two different translations - which do we prefer?

• Bert -

On Sep 18, 2007, at 2:18 , Paulo Drummond wrote:

...

Xavi, Tak —

Here is what I will do:

I will continue my contributions using lunchpad; at least to review my own translations from past 2-3 years and — with the help of some folks who are directly using it with children and their XOs — fill most of the blanks in, say, two weeks. Then we can point a revision group to consolidate the whole 'trunk' in a given date.

— paulo

On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Xavier Alvarez wrote:

...

Takashi & Paulo,

I agree that launchpad is *way* more friendly and useful than fedora's site (at least in it's curernt state). Not only because it's web based (less shuffling around of files, possibly messing up encodings and other nuances) but you can pull strings from an apparently vast set of previous translations... allowing greater consistency of protocols and idioms for each language.

Given that Etoys is highly fragmented (lots of POTs) and if each pot is translated by a different translator the risks of ending up with a fully de-localized etoys is high...

iow, it will all be in a given language, but with no consistency for terms, objects and 'messages'. It may end up being a useless environment that nobody but a fully bilingual 'developer' that can translate back into english and map it into their knowledge of the environment will be able to profit from (I've witnessed those kind of 'localizations', and they are not nice)

My question is: how will we manage?

Having etoys' POTs 'hosted' in both is confusing because we have no clear flow for either plus (personally) I have no clue how will the integration work. So I can't even start telling other translators or posting on the wiki how to go around collaborating....

BTW, this applies not only to etoys, but all other l10n stuff...

Cheers, Xavier

On Monday 17 September 2007 16:11, Takashi Yamamiya wrote: TY> Hi Paulo, TY> TY> Paulo Drummond wrote: TY> > Hi Takashi, TY> > TY> > Don't you think the translations.launchpad is a clear, TY> > easier way for everyone who wants to contribute? TY> TY> Yes, Maybe... TY> TY> Because I'm not sure what is the best way to manage our TY> translations, so I set up two options at Fedora site (as a TY> good citizen in OLPC community) and launchpad (nice web ui). TY> You can use either way for a while, and we would choose one TY> of them later. TY> TY> - http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys TY> - https://translations.launchpad.net/etoys/ TY> TY> Any way, the master is http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ TY> I will merge into here by my hand at first. TY> TY> Now we have two different aspect of issues. One is a just TY> technical issue, our gettext support isn't good enough yet. TY> Other one is translation process, we need to make clear how TY> to adjust each translation volunteers. TY> TY> Cheers, TY> - Takashi

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-- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child

---

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I am already using launchpad (see my post to Jim)

— paulo

On Sep 18, 2007, at 4:36 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

Maybe we should remove the translations from fedora and just put up a notice to use launchpad? I can see how two different places might be confusing, leading to doubled effort. And suppose we actually get two different translations - which do we prefer?

• Bert -

On Sep 18, 2007, at 2:18 , Paulo Drummond wrote:

...

Xavi, Tak —

Here is what I will do:

I will continue my contributions using lunchpad; at least to review my own translations from past 2-3 years and — with the help of some folks who are directly using it with children and their XOs — fill most of the blanks in, say, two weeks. Then we can point a revision group to consolidate the whole 'trunk' in a given date.

— paulo

On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Xavier Alvarez wrote:

...

Takashi & Paulo,

I agree that launchpad is *way* more friendly and useful than fedora's site (at least in it's curernt state). Not only because it's web based (less shuffling around of files, possibly messing up encodings and other nuances) but you can pull strings from an apparently vast set of previous translations... allowing greater consistency of protocols and idioms for each language.

Given that Etoys is highly fragmented (lots of POTs) and if each pot is translated by a different translator the risks of ending up with a fully de-localized etoys is high...

iow, it will all be in a given language, but with no consistency for terms, objects and 'messages'. It may end up being a useless environment that nobody but a fully bilingual 'developer' that can translate back into english and map it into their knowledge of the environment will be able to profit from (I've witnessed those kind of 'localizations', and they are not nice)

My question is: how will we manage?

Having etoys' POTs 'hosted' in both is confusing because we have no clear flow for either plus (personally) I have no clue how will the integration work. So I can't even start telling other translators or posting on the wiki how to go around collaborating....

BTW, this applies not only to etoys, but all other l10n stuff...

Cheers, Xavier

On Monday 17 September 2007 16:11, Takashi Yamamiya wrote: TY> Hi Paulo, TY> TY> Paulo Drummond wrote: TY> > Hi Takashi, TY> > TY> > Don't you think the translations.launchpad is a clear, TY> > easier way for everyone who wants to contribute? TY> TY> Yes, Maybe... TY> TY> Because I'm not sure what is the best way to manage our TY> translations, so I set up two options at Fedora site (as a TY> good citizen in OLPC community) and launchpad (nice web ui). TY> You can use either way for a while, and we would choose one TY> of them later. TY> TY> - http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/olpc-etoys TY> - https://translations.launchpad.net/etoys/ TY> TY> Any way, the master is http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/etoys/po/ TY> I will merge into here by my hand at first. TY> TY> Now we have two different aspect of issues. One is a just TY> technical issue, our gettext support isn't good enough yet. TY> Other one is translation process, we need to make clear how TY> to adjust each translation volunteers. TY> TY> Cheers, TY> - Takashi

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