UI October 2007

ui@lists.squeakfoundation.org

17 participants
23 discussions

Re: [UI] Well, shall we do something then?
by Bill Schwab 03 Oct '07

03 Oct '07

Jason, Understood/agreed. In fact I would expect to see a MorphicWorldPresenter that would allow one to incorporate morphs into an MVP framework. I probably would start out using Morphic for views, and once that was working, start looking for an alternative. It should be possible to coexist so that: (1) there will be a prayer of people looking at it let alone using it; (2) who wants to start writing an IDE while reworking the GUI =:0 Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> jason.johnson.081(a)gmail.com 09/18/07 1:06 PM >>> On 9/16/07, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > > I am not sure that we are actually trying to ditch Morphic, so much as > offer an alternative to it. With the MVP proposals I don't think we are doing either. I think Morphic could be used for the view if we want. I hope people don't take my questioning of Morphic as an indication that MVP has to replace it. I think these are two totally different issues. > Perhaps we can offer a choice between > Morphic and "The Welch Thing" on a per-use basis. Personally I see this choice as the power of the MVP model. We can create a domain class, a presenter for it and a view (or a few) for each possible View type (e.g. Tweak, Morphic, OpenGL, Seaside?), which can be selected automatically depending on user preferences. _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Well, shall we do something then?
by Bill Schwab 03 Oct '07

03 Oct '07

Todd, I had forgotten about the costumes - now I really want no part of Tweak :( I am not sure that we are actually trying to ditch Morphic, so much as offer an alternative to it. Perhaps we can offer a choice between Morphic and "The Welch Thing" on a per-use basis. If we get it right, the tools will move in our direction, especially with Matt and Colin paying attention to this list. Our work should also be able to co-exist with Morphic to aid those who want to migrate to MVP, but not all at once. Are you certain one needs vectors to get a GUI right? Good layout managers and setting font sizes in #onViewOpened (of MVP fame) should be enough - I think??? I tend to assume that anything beyond the basic widgets goes in an ImagePresenter and as such can scale as needed simply by rendering the image at an appropriate resolution. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> tblanchard(a)mac.com 09/16/07 1:44 PM >>> On Sep 16, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Bill Schwab wrote: > Anyone looking for another reason to at least have a > layer on top of Morphic might consider that Morphic is going to get > clobbered (has already been?) in Croquet. I am not happy about their > reasoning and suspect they will eventually regret the decision; > Morphic > could easily suffer for it. Maybe so. Tweak has a lot of issues of its own IMHO. The division of responsibilities between costume and player is not well understood by most (I haven't found a good explanation anywhere anyhow) and because of this - most external contributions will likely end up bastardized - similar to what happened to Morphic with etoys. > Morphic is certainly not all bad, and in a rewrite scenario, we should > be able to clone (aka steal<g>) quite a lot of code from it, clearly > classifying behavior as belonging to views, interactors (e.g. mouse > tracking) and presenters. A lot of cruft will be left behind. The main problem with trying to ditch Morphic is that you'll end up rewriting all the tools yet again. At least that was my experience with I was experimenting with Bricks. Perhaps ToolBuilder has eliminated that problem. Conclusions I reached were: 1) The graphics model lacks sufficient abstraction for what I was trying to do - too pixel oriented and a vector model is really needed. No abstraction for "shapes" available. 2) Morphic's event delivery model is just weird and difficult to alter because of a lot of special case code for handling halos. -Todd > > Bill > > > > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > >>>> jason.johnson.081(a)gmail.com 09/16/07 8:25 AM >>> > On 9/15/07, Brad Fuller <bradallenfuller(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Warning: I know NOTHING about Dolphin. I haven't even seen it. >> But, as > you >> explain it, it seems like some extra steps to make MVP objects > interactive. >> Morphic objects are by default interactive, with nothing to do to get > there. >> Why would you want a system that makes you perform extra steps? > > Because close coupling (and I'm assuming based on what I've read that > Morphic is closely coupled to the models) makes a less flexable > system. > > The way I personally program any GUI, web or otherwise, is I make my > model classes. These are classes that only understand the work to be > done. They know nothing about "does someone need to confirm this?" or > what order their instance variables might be displayed or anything. > You could call these classes in a background process that has no GUI > components at all. > > Now, there will be lots of different ways of displaying these model > classes and exposing the services they offer. It is very often the > case that different people are going to be interested in different > services. So to support this, the best way I have seen is to have a > "presenter" class that described generically how the class would be > presented to a "third party" if you will [1]. > > And even a given presentation may have different ways to view it (see > Magritte for examples). > >> I agree the event processing in Morphic can be improved. And, from my > small >> experience with it, there are things that need to be fixed. But, why > not put >> energy into improving Morphic? It's already there and MVP seems >> like a > LOT of >> work! > > It will be a lot of work to be sure, but other systems have better > means of doing GUI work right now then Squeak. It's time to catch up. > And I am still asking and not hearing (probably my own fault): what > does Morphic offer? Why bother with the huge clean up it needs? What > power/flexability does it offer that other graphic systems don't have? > > But as has been mentioned by myself and others already, making MVP has > nothing to do with Morphic. Morphic can make a suitable view for the > MVP framework. > > [1] Note that Lukas seemed to arrive at this conclusion independantly > with his Magritte framework that allows you to describe how a model > will be presented, and then it can be viewed via the web, Morphic, > anything that someone has written a "view" for. > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Gary's UI Enhancements
by Bill Schwab 03 Oct '07

03 Oct '07

Brian, Then I am officially stumped, and will let those with some idea of what might be happening take over :) Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> rbb(a)techgame.net 10/03/07 1:00 PM >>> Yes, I've been using the beta images for a while :) - Brian On Oct 3, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Bill Schwab wrote: > Brian, > > Did you use the beta image? The older images might have the same > problem I have had. Great news that it is now the default! > > Bill > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > >>>> rbb(a)techgame.net 10/03/07 12:15 PM >>> > > On Oct 3, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Bill Schwab wrote: > >> Brian, >> >> There is clearly a dependence on #topWindow or whatever it is, and I >> have never quite had the time to figure out where it lives; it >> must be >> something that Gary installs as part of his base image. The pre- >> built >> dev image (Damian's work???) will probably treat you better. > > I was using Damien's image, but before this last release when the UI > enhancements are default - I installed it using the Package Universe > browser in the Dev image. > > - Brian > > > >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. >> University of Florida >> Department of Anesthesiology >> PO Box 100254 >> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 >> >> Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu >> Tel: (352) 846-1285 >> FAX: (352) 392-7029 >> >>>>> rbb(a)techgame.net 10/03/07 11:17 AM >>> >> Hello all! >> >> I have been using the UI enhancements, and found that it isn't >> actually closing system windows - especially debugger windows. If I >> run code like: >> >> (Debugger allInstances collect: [:d | d dependents detect: [:i | i >> isKindOf: SystemWindow]]) do: [:w | w openInWorld] >> >> I was getting 7 or 8 debugger windows popping up on the screen, they >> just wouldn't close. I had to start over with a fresh image and load >> my code. Now that I'm not using the UI enhancements, I don't have >> this issue, but I sure miss them! >> >> - Brian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UI mailing list >> UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UI mailing list >> UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Gary's UI Enhancements
by Bill Schwab 03 Oct '07

03 Oct '07

Brian, Did you use the beta image? The older images might have the same problem I have had. Great news that it is now the default! Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> rbb(a)techgame.net 10/03/07 12:15 PM >>> On Oct 3, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Bill Schwab wrote: > Brian, > > There is clearly a dependence on #topWindow or whatever it is, and I > have never quite had the time to figure out where it lives; it must be > something that Gary installs as part of his base image. The pre-built > dev image (Damian's work???) will probably treat you better. I was using Damien's image, but before this last release when the UI enhancements are default - I installed it using the Package Universe browser in the Dev image. - Brian > > Bill > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > >>>> rbb(a)techgame.net 10/03/07 11:17 AM >>> > Hello all! > > I have been using the UI enhancements, and found that it isn't > actually closing system windows - especially debugger windows. If I > run code like: > > (Debugger allInstances collect: [:d | d dependents detect: [:i | i > isKindOf: SystemWindow]]) do: [:w | w openInWorld] > > I was getting 7 or 8 debugger windows popping up on the screen, they > just wouldn't close. I had to start over with a fresh image and load > my code. Now that I'm not using the UI enhancements, I don't have > this issue, but I sure miss them! > > - Brian > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [UI] Gary's UI Enhancements
by Bill Schwab 03 Oct '07

03 Oct '07

Brian, There is clearly a dependence on #topWindow or whatever it is, and I have never quite had the time to figure out where it lives; it must be something that Gary installs as part of his base image. The pre-built dev image (Damian's work???) will probably treat you better. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> rbb(a)techgame.net 10/03/07 11:17 AM >>> Hello all! I have been using the UI enhancements, and found that it isn't actually closing system windows - especially debugger windows. If I run code like: (Debugger allInstances collect: [:d | d dependents detect: [:i | i isKindOf: SystemWindow]]) do: [:w | w openInWorld] I was getting 7 or 8 debugger windows popping up on the screen, they just wouldn't close. I had to start over with a fresh image and load my code. Now that I'm not using the UI enhancements, I don't have this issue, but I sure miss them! - Brian _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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Re: [ANN][Squeak-dev Beta Image] Version sq3.10-7145dev07.10.1
by Klaus D. Witzel 03 Oct '07

03 Oct '07

The UI Enhancements look great ! Thank you Damien & Gary & the UI gang. On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:55:57 +0200, Damien Cassou wrote: > Hi, > > I've just uploaded a new squeak-dev beta image based on > Squeak3.10-7145 which contains the new UI from Gary Chambers. If the > new UI doesn't work well, please let the ui team know. > > http://damien.cassou.free.fr/squeak-dev/beta/ > > Changes in this version: > --------------------------- > > - DynamicProtocols has been updated again. > - OB-Enhancements, provided by David Röthlisberger, is loaded into the > image. You can launch it using 'OBSmartGroupBrowser open' or > 'OBMultipleSelectionBrowser open' (the first one extends the second > one with groups). You can select multiple lines using SHIFT. > - Different improvements in OmniBrowser and the UI Enhancements. > > Contained packages: > ------------------------ > > This image contains the following packages: > > AST version 150 > AutomaticMethodCategorizer version 0.24 > AutomaticMethodCategorizerServices version 0.2 > ClassSelectorSets version 1 > DynamicProtocols version 0.67 > eCompletion version 0.88 > eCompletion-Traits version 0.1 > eCompletionOmniBrowser version 0.4 > Installer version 1.0.130 > Mondrian version 0.40 > OB-Enhancements version 0.29 > OmniBrowser version 0.391 > OmniBrowser-Full version 0.25 > OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.39 > OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.33new > OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.306 > OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 0.9.1 > OmniBrowser-TraitsIntegration version 0.32 > Refactoring Engine version 37 > RoelTyper version 0.60 > ScriptManager version 0.6 > Shout version 3.15-tween.70 > ShoutWorkspace version 1-tween.1 > SmaCC runtime version 13 > Squeak dev packages version 0.16 > Squeak dev packages beta version 0.19 > SUnit-improved version 4.0.105 > SUnitGUI-improved version 4.0.48 > ToolBuilder integration for UI Themes version 0.51 > UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.54 > Universes version 36.1 > Universes OmniBrowser version 0.32 > YAXO version 9 > > Updating the image: > ------------------------- > > You are not obliged to download a new image if you don't want. You can > always update your image. > > To upgrade your already existing squeak-dev image: > > 1) World menu->open...->Package Universe Browser > 2) Update list from network > 3) Select all upgrades > 4) Install selection > 5) Execute: 'DEVImageCreator default install' (all windows will be > closed) > > > Prepared packages: > -------------------------- > > There are a lot of packages prepared for you in this image. They are > not loaded in the image, but they can be easily. > > - Open Package Universe Browser (world->open...->Package Universe > Browser). > - Click on "Update list from network" > - Wait a few seconds > - Select your packages > - Install them > > -- > Damien Cassou

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Re: [UI] Re: Fwd: Workspace backgrounds - almost there
by Bill Schwab 02 Oct '07

02 Oct '07

I really didn't do much, so the credit belongs to OA (for doing it in Dolphin), Gary for the overall appearance, and Andy Tween's stunning work on Shout. Maybe Andy can give us some advice on where to change background colors. I could live with its being limited to Shout workspaces - especially if the alternative is not having anywhere ;) My only concern re Shout is that I typically do not use the workspace extension, because I often use workspaces (the system window variety) for notes more than code. The ideal solution changes the background of workspaces in inspectors, the debugger, browsers, and workspace system windows. Basically, anywhere do-it and friends are available, the background color is appropriate. If there is a good place to hack to get that effect, I can certainly do it, but it seems that Squeak should be able to do this w/o the need to edit code that is maintained by others. It case you want to reproduce it, the color is Color r:1.0 g:1.0 b:230.0/255 Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> klaus.witzel(a)cobss.com 09/27/07 11:04 PM >>> That looks great ! On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:21:55 +0200, Bill Schwab wrote: > This should do it: > > http://needle.anest.ufl.edu/users/wschwab/UI-almost.png > > Bill > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > >>>> Bill Schwab 9/25/2007 11:16:34 PM >>> > I did some fiddling to try to reproduce the installation problems I > had, added a reminder about the Damien's dev image to the UI swiki page, > downloaded it, and did an installation of Gary's widgets using > Monitcello. Then I moved my BibTeX helper code into the new image. I > appear to have made a happy mistake in the latter, capturing a change > that I considered redundant, and ended up with more or less the visual > changes I was trying to create, and grabbed a screenshot before I had > time to break it :) > > I will probably send it to Gary as a start. What is the proper way to > make it available? I suppose the easiest thing is to put it on my web > page, but I have not yet learned how to use Linux to remotely access our > servers, so I can't do that right now. > > When it becomes available, you will notice the background color of the > browser's and debugger's code pane. I would hope for the debugger's > inspector panes to be so colored also, though they currently show it > only for the top line. Ironically, the workspace in the image is not > correctly colored, though a newly-created instance has the correct > color, though, as in the debugger's inspectors, it shows the color only > to a point, after which the default white takes over. > > Again, this is not a super big deal, but I find that similar changes > that OA made to Dolphin long ago grew on me. > > Bill _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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FYI: Squeak UI is on NABBLE now
by Brad Fuller 02 Oct '07

02 Oct '07

http://www.nabble.com/Squeak---UI-f27247.html xml: http://www.nabble.com/atom/ForumFeeds.jtp?forum=27247

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New version of Widgets
by Gary Chambers 02 Oct '07

02 Oct '07

Up to (MC version) 244 now. Had a private email about the colour picker for the paintbox appearing under the sketch. Down to the fix for Morph>>morphicLayerNumberWithin: to call #morphicLayerNumber rather than accessing the property directly. Looks like, for embedded morphs, the owner needed to be checked to directly access the property in this case.

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Re: [UI] Fwd: Workspace backgrounds - almost there
by Bill Schwab 02 Oct '07

02 Oct '07

I knew I missed a question in my global reply - the corner handles. They do not particularly bother me (I almost like them actually), but if they go away, I won't scream about it. Now that you mention it, you're right, they are ugly ;) Gary, something I just noticed is that the soft squeak theme leaves the [x] button on the left of the title bar. I _think_ I would move it to he right. That said, I gladly defer to you judgement. BTW, I continue to be impressed with your work. For reasons unknown, I switched back to the Vistary theme and noted that you obviously can move the close button; at first, I assumed you simply didn't mess with the locations. I would use the Vistary theme, but I find the buttons difficult to read due to the lens effect, or more to the point, its location. Of course, that is largely a result of what you set out to emulate. I can envision writing a hybrid theme that has lens effects near rectangle bounds, but that can wait. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> asqueaker(a)gmail.com 09/27/07 10:10 PM >>> Looks real good Bill! I especially like highlighting the items in Lists the same as text highlighted in a text pane; a big improvement over the red-on-gray list selections of past. Do you have a mind to ditch the corner handles? Aren't they ugly? Not to mention redundant with the changing of the mouse-pointer. I've also noticed (in 3.9 images) they creep out of their bounds under certain circumstances like too small a window-title font, or maybe square window corners too.. On 9/27/07, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > This should do it: > > http://needle.anest.ufl.edu/users/wschwab/UI-almost.png > > Bill > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 846-1285 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > > >>> Bill Schwab 9/25/2007 11:16:34 PM >>> > I did some fiddling to try to reproduce the installation problems I > had, added a reminder about the Damien's dev image to the UI swiki page, > downloaded it, and did an installation of Gary's widgets using > Monitcello. Then I moved my BibTeX helper code into the new image. I > appear to have made a happy mistake in the latter, capturing a change > that I considered redundant, and ended up with more or less the visual > changes I was trying to create, and grabbed a screenshot before I had > time to break it :) > > I will probably send it to Gary as a start. What is the proper way to > make it available? I suppose the easiest thing is to put it on my web > page, but I have not yet learned how to use Linux to remotely access our > servers, so I can't do that right now. > > When it becomes available, you will notice the background color of the > browser's and debugger's code pane. I would hope for the debugger's > inspector panes to be so colored also, though they currently show it > only for the top line. Ironically, the workspace in the image is not > correctly colored, though a newly-created instance has the correct > color, though, as in the debugger's inspectors, it shows the color only > to a point, after which the default white takes over. > > Again, this is not a super big deal, but I find that similar changes > that OA made to Dolphin long ago grew on me. > > Bill > > > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > _______________________________________________ UI mailing list UI(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

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