Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project? Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
- Bert -
I also would like to integrate Skeleton in Etoys sometime. It's a nice tool and give many new ways to make animation etc.
I have not looked at the code at all.
Is the license ok ?
There is not much documentation as far as I know.
We could add it and gradually expose it as it get documented and tested for bugs etc.
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project? Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:32 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
I also would like to integrate Skeleton in Etoys sometime. It's a nice tool and give many new ways to make animation etc.
I have not looked at the code at all.
Is the license ok ?
Mmmm... I didn't look but we might have a problem because it seems to be SqueakL. That's not acceptable, right?
There is not much documentation as far as I know.
We could add it and gradually expose it as it get documented and tested for bugs etc.
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and
that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects
but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will
have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it:
http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project?
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
On 11.10.2011, at 18:48, Ricardo Moran wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:32 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote: I also would like to integrate Skeleton in Etoys sometime. It's a nice tool and give many new ways to make animation etc.
I have not looked at the code at all.
Is the license ok ?
Mmmm... I didn't look but we might have a problem because it seems to be SqueakL. That's not acceptable, right?
No, but we can just ask the author to allow us to use it under MIT. CC'ed.
- Bert -
Hi Ricardo, Bert
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 18:48, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Is the license ok ?
Mmmm... I didn't look but we might have a problem because it seems to be SqueakL. That's not acceptable, right?
No, but we can just ask the author to allow us to use it under MIT. CC'ed.
- Bert -
I have just put MIT in the squeak map site.
Cheers, - Takashi
Nice :-)
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Takashi Yamamiya tak@metatoys.org wrote:
Hi Ricardo, Bert
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 18:48, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Is the license ok ?
Mmmm... I didn't look but we might have a problem because it seems to be SqueakL. That's not acceptable, right?
No, but we can just ask the author to allow us to use it under MIT. CC'ed.
- Bert -
I have just put MIT in the squeak map site.
Cheers,
- Takashi
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.dewrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and
that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but
from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will
have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it:
http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV files, but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O of csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose.
Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create. Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in etoys also.
Randy
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV files, but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O of csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose.
Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create. Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in etoys also. Randy
Hi I think it is possible to make all these graphs out of skeleton.
From what I see is Skeleton a extension to the way we script and
visualize in Etoys, It seems to have a thought out model.
Only working with it and managing the code will tell if it something we find useful and worth while.
Karl
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV files, but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O of csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose. Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Hi,
I uploaded to the inbox a version of Skeleton with a few changes of mine that allows you to use a spreadsheet just as you would use mine to import/export data and iterate over its contents.
I also commited a version of the CSV package, which I use to do the importing. However, I didn't remember to look at the license of the package before clicking commit and now that I did, I see it doesn't specify MIT, so I'll ask the author about it (please forgive me and remove the commit if it can be a problem).
Anyway, if you can please tell me what you think.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:28 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and
basic
and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create. Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow
plots?
If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in etoys also. Randy
Hi I think it is possible to make all these graphs out of skeleton. From what I see is Skeleton a extension to the way we script and visualize in Etoys, It seems to have a thought out model.
Only working with it and managing the code will tell if it something we find useful and worth while.
Karl
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de
wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm
wondering
why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it
could be a
nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading
of
external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think
we
might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box.
And it
doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison
with
DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates
from
2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an
issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC
project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV files,
but
not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for
integrating
Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O of
csv
files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose. Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I uploaded to the inbox a version of Skeleton with a few changes of mine that allows you to use a spreadsheet just as you would use mine to import/export data and iterate over its contents. I also commited a version of the CSV package, which I use to do the importing. However, I didn't remember to look at the license of the package before clicking commit and now that I did, I see it doesn't specify MIT, so I'll ask the author about it (please forgive me and remove the commit if it can be a problem). Anyway, if you can please tell me what you think. Cheers, Richo
That is CSV Parser from SqueakSource right ? I don't see a licence anywhere ... Can you mail Avi Bryant and ask ?
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:28 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create. Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in etoys also. Randy
Hi I think it is possible to make all these graphs out of skeleton. From what I see is Skeleton a extension to the way we script and visualize in Etoys, It seems to have a thought out model.
Only working with it and managing the code will tell if it something we find useful and worth while.
Karl
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV files, but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O of csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose. Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:38 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I uploaded to the inbox a version of Skeleton with a few changes of mine that allows you to use a spreadsheet just as you would use mine to import/export data and iterate over its contents. I also commited a version of the CSV package, which I use to do the importing. However, I didn't remember to look at the license of the
package
before clicking commit and now that I did, I see it doesn't specify MIT,
so
I'll ask the author about it (please forgive me and remove the commit if
it
can be a problem). Anyway, if you can please tell me what you think. Cheers, Richo
That is CSV Parser from SqueakSource right ? I don't see a licence anywhere ... Can you mail Avi Bryant and ask ?
Yes, I did. I'm waiting for an answer now...
Richo
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:28 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create. Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in etoys also. Randy
Hi I think it is possible to make all these graphs out of skeleton. From what I see is Skeleton a extension to the way we script and visualize in Etoys, It seems to have a thought out model.
Only working with it and managing the code will tell if it something we find useful and worth while.
Karl
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow
loading
of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I
think
we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished
projects
but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the
box.
And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version
dates
from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV
files,
but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of
tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O
of
csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose. Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Hi guys, I haven't received any response from Avi Bryant regarding the license of his csv parser, probably because I might have an old/incorrect mail. But anyway, it doesn't matter, because it's easy to write one. So I uploaded a new version of Skeleton with my little csv parser and I moved the CSV package to treated.
I think this version is good enough to be integrated in Etoys, what do you think?
Cheers, Richo
P.S. I attached a simple project in order to help educators test it without going through Monticello :)
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:38 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I uploaded to the inbox a version of Skeleton with a few changes of mine that allows you to use a spreadsheet just as you would use mine to import/export data and iterate over its contents. I also commited a version of the CSV package, which I use to do the importing. However, I didn't remember to look at the license of the
package
before clicking commit and now that I did, I see it doesn't specify MIT,
so
I'll ask the author about it (please forgive me and remove the commit if
it
can be a problem). Anyway, if you can please tell me what you think. Cheers, Richo
That is CSV Parser from SqueakSource right ? I don't see a licence anywhere ... Can you mail Avi Bryant and ask ?
Yes, I did. I'm waiting for an answer now...
Richo
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:28 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create. Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in
etoys
also. Randy
Hi I think it is possible to make all these graphs out of skeleton. From what I see is Skeleton a extension to the way we script and visualize in Etoys, It seems to have a thought out model.
Only working with it and managing the code will tell if it something we find useful and worth while.
Karl
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
> Hi, > > The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, > and > that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm > wondering > why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it > could be a > nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow
loading
> of > external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I
think
> we > might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo. > > I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished
projects
> but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the
box.
> And it > doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple
comparison
> with > DrGeo: > > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765 > > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154 > > Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone > will > have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version
dates
> from > 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an > issue. > > Anyway, if you want to test it: > http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11. > > Cheers, > Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV
files,
but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of
tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O
of
csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be
that
difficult, I suppose. Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
This is looking great. What we should do now is document it so it's easier to get a start using it. Once we include it it should be a example project or two that explain the use and features.
Karl
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Hi guys, I haven't received any response from Avi Bryant regarding the license of his csv parser, probably because I might have an old/incorrect mail. But anyway, it doesn't matter, because it's easy to write one. So I uploaded a new version of Skeleton with my little csv parser and I moved the CSV package to treated. I think this version is good enough to be integrated in Etoys, what do you think? Cheers, Richo P.S. I attached a simple project in order to help educators test it without going through Monticello :) On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:38 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I uploaded to the inbox a version of Skeleton with a few changes of mine that allows you to use a spreadsheet just as you would use mine to import/export data and iterate over its contents. I also commited a version of the CSV package, which I use to do the importing. However, I didn't remember to look at the license of the package before clicking commit and now that I did, I see it doesn't specify MIT, so I'll ask the author about it (please forgive me and remove the commit if it can be a problem). Anyway, if you can please tell me what you think. Cheers, Richo
That is CSV Parser from SqueakSource right ? I don't see a licence anywhere ... Can you mail Avi Bryant and ask ?
Yes, I did. I'm waiting for an answer now... Richo
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:28 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create. Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in etoys also. Randy
Hi I think it is possible to make all these graphs out of skeleton. From what I see is Skeleton a extension to the way we script and visualize in Etoys, It seems to have a thought out model.
Only working with it and managing the code will tell if it something we find useful and worth while.
Karl
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote: > > On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet > > morph, > > and > > that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm > > wondering > > why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it > > could be a > > nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow > > loading > > of > > external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I > > think > > we > > might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo. > > > > I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished > > projects > > but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the > > box. > > And it > > doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple > > comparison > > with > > DrGeo: > > > > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 > > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 > > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 > > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765 > > > > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 > > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 > > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 > > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154 > > > > Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone > > will > > have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version > > dates > > from > > 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of > > an > > issue. > > > > Anyway, if you want to test it: > > http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11. > > > > Cheers, > > Richo > > How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC > project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV files, but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of tiles.
> > Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O of csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose. Cheers, Richo
> > - Bert - > > > _______________________________________________ > squeakland mailing list > squeakland@squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Ricardo,
I looked at your project with skeleton and on the surface it is the same as what your wrote for GSoC. Either would be great with me. I couldn't evaluate which underlying code is better.
I would also like to see your chart, calendar and graphics IO objects included. Would it be possible for you to make a version of Etoys that has all those in it so we could test it on the XO?
Thank you for continuing your great work.
Randy
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi guys, I haven't received any response from Avi Bryant regarding the license of his csv parser, probably because I might have an old/incorrect mail. But anyway, it doesn't matter, because it's easy to write one. So I uploaded a new version of Skeleton with my little csv parser and I moved the CSV package to treated.
I think this version is good enough to be integrated in Etoys, what do you think?
Cheers, Richo
P.S. I attached a simple project in order to help educators test it without going through Monticello :)
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:38 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I uploaded to the inbox a version of Skeleton with a few changes of
mine
that allows you to use a spreadsheet just as you would use mine to import/export data and iterate over its contents. I also commited a version of the CSV package, which I use to do the importing. However, I didn't remember to look at the license of the
package
before clicking commit and now that I did, I see it doesn't specify
MIT, so
I'll ask the author about it (please forgive me and remove the commit
if it
can be a problem). Anyway, if you can please tell me what you think. Cheers, Richo
That is CSV Parser from SqueakSource right ? I don't see a licence anywhere ... Can you mail Avi Bryant and ask ?
Yes, I did. I'm waiting for an answer now...
Richo
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:28 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create. Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in
etoys
also. Randy
Hi I think it is possible to make all these graphs out of skeleton. From what I see is Skeleton a extension to the way we script and visualize in Etoys, It seems to have a thought out model.
Only working with it and managing the code will tell if it something we find useful and worth while.
Karl
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote: > > On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet
morph,
> > and > > that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm > > wondering > > why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it > > could be a > > nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow
loading
> > of > > external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I
think
> > we > > might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo. > > > > I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished
projects
> > but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the
box.
> > And it > > doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple
comparison
> > with > > DrGeo: > > > > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 > > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 > > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 > > (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765 > > > > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 > > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 > > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 > > (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154 > > > > Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone > > will > > have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version
dates
> > from > > 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of
an
> > issue. > > > > Anyway, if you want to test it: > > http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11. > > > > Cheers, > > Richo > > How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC > project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV
files,
but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of
tiles.
> > Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the
I/O of
csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be
that
difficult, I suppose. Cheers, Richo
> > - Bert - > > > _______________________________________________ > squeakland mailing list > squeakland@squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Hi, sorry for the delay.
I just came back from Montevideo for Ceibal Virtual Educa. It was a great event. And today before leaving to Buenos Aires we went to a school fair where children of 8 and 9 years old showed the work they did with the XOs. It was great! There were some animated short stories, kids making music, comics, animations, and a lot of presentations about different subjects. One kid showed me how to make a bar graph in Etoys. It was so cool! :)
I noticed, however, that most of the kids use Etoys merely as some sort of enhanced powerpoint but few of them actually see its potential for simulations and programming (they use Scratch or TurtleArt for that). I know that my sensation after seeing just a couple of students doesn't count as valid statistics, and I also know that there have been a lot of discussions about this in the list, but I can't help thinking something is wrong and I wanted to share it.
Anyway, coming back to the subject of this mail, regarding my changes of Skeleton: yes, I used the same code from GSoC except for the CSV parser which is now much better.
Regarding charts, calendar and graphics I/O: I will fix the number lines with the suggestions from you and steve and then I'll make a project with everything included. Or do you mean a whole new version of Etoys?
Cheers, Richo
On Thursday, October 27, 2011, Randall Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
Ricardo,
I looked at your project with skeleton and on the surface it is the same
as what your wrote for GSoC. Either would be great with me. I couldn't evaluate which underlying code is better.
Exactly, I used the same code except for the CSV parser which is now much better.
I would also like to see your chart, calendar and graphics IO objects
included. Would it be possible for you to make a version of Etoys that has all those in it so we could test it on the XO?
Cheers, Richo
Thank you for continuing your great work.
Randy
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi guys, I haven't received any response from Avi Bryant regarding the
license of his csv parser, probably because I might have an old/incorrect mail. But anyway, it doesn't matter, because it's easy to write one. So I uploaded a new version of Skeleton with my little csv parser and I moved the CSV package to treated.
I think this version is good enough to be integrated in Etoys, what do you
think?
Cheers, Richo P.S. I attached a simple project in order to help educators test it
without going through Monticello :)
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com
wrote:
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:38 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com
wrote:
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi, I uploaded to the inbox a version of Skeleton with a few changes of mine that allows you to use a spreadsheet just as you would use mine to import/export data and iterate over its contents. I also commited a version of the CSV package, which I use to do the importing. However, I didn't remember to look at the license of the
package
before clicking commit and now that I did, I see it doesn't specify MIT,
so
I'll ask the author about it (please forgive me and remove the commit if
it
can be a problem). Anyway, if you can please tell me what you think. Cheers, Richo
That is CSV Parser from SqueakSource right ? I don't see a licence anywhere ... Can you mail Avi Bryant and ask ?
Yes, I did. I'm waiting for an answer now... Richo
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:28 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create. Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in etoys also. Randy
Hi I think it is possible to make all these graphs out of skeleton. From what I see is Skeleton a extension to the way we script and visualize in Etoys, It seems to have a thought out model.
Only working with it and managing the code will tell if it something we find useful and worth while.
Karl
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 201
-- The views expressed in this email are my own and not necessarily those of CNU.
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490
email: rcaton@cnu.edu web: www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton
Le 29/10/2011 06:46, Ricardo Moran a écrit :
I noticed, however, that most of the kids use Etoys merely as some sort of enhanced powerpoint but few of them actually see its potential for simulations and programming (they use Scratch or TurtleArt for that). I know that my sensation after seeing just a couple of students doesn't count as valid statistics, and I also know that there have been a lot of discussions about this in the list, but I can't help thinking something is wrong and I wanted to share it.
The users always surprise you and they gear freely in a direction different from the one you planed for them :) Steve Jobs was a master to drive the user where he wanted.
Teacher have to cope with their reality, which it is difficult for us after all. So it may suggest to add more graphical tools useful for presentation. Your bubble tools are winning pieces for that :)
Hilaire
On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 4:55 AM, Hilaire Fernandes < hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 29/10/2011 06:46, Ricardo Moran a écrit :
I noticed, however, that most of the kids use Etoys merely as some sort of enhanced powerpoint but few of them actually see its potential for simulations and programming (they use Scratch or TurtleArt for that). I know that my sensation after seeing just a couple of students doesn't count as valid statistics, and I also know that there have been a lot of discussions about this in the list, but I can't help thinking something is wrong and I wanted to share it.
The users always surprise you and they gear freely in a direction different from the one you planed for them :) Steve Jobs was a master to drive the user where he wanted.
Teacher have to cope with their reality, which it is difficult for us after all. So it may suggest to add more graphical tools useful for presentation. Your bubble tools are winning pieces for that :)
Yes, some kids told me they would want more graphics to choose in Etoys (like the ones in Scratch).
Cheers, Richo
Hilaire _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Am 31.10.2011 um 03:09 schrieb Ricardo Moran:
On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 4:55 AM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com wrote: Le 29/10/2011 06:46, Ricardo Moran a écrit :
I noticed, however, that most of the kids use Etoys merely as some sort of enhanced powerpoint but few of them actually see its potential for simulations and programming (they use Scratch or TurtleArt for that). I know that my sensation after seeing just a couple of students doesn't count as valid statistics, and I also know that there have been a lot of discussions about this in the list, but I can't help thinking something is wrong and I wanted to share it.
The users always surprise you and they gear freely in a direction different from the one you planed for them :) Steve Jobs was a master to drive the user where he wanted.
Teacher have to cope with their reality, which it is difficult for us after all. So it may suggest to add more graphical tools useful for presentation. Your bubble tools are winning pieces for that :)
Yes, some kids told me they would want more graphics to choose in Etoys (like the ones in Scratch).
We have been discussing this from time to time, and we think that having nice graphics to choose from will not really fit with the idea of children creating their own objects. Seeing graphics that they might not be able to create themselves easily can discourage them from make their own paintings. But what if we create a part on our website where children can upload their paintings so that others can use them?
Just a thought. Greetings, Rita
Cheers, Richo
Hilaire _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Rita Freudenberg rita@isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de
On Monday 31 Oct 2011 5:33:28 PM Rita Freudenberg wrote:
Yes, some kids told me they would want more graphics to choose in Etoys (like the ones in Scratch).
We have been discussing this from time to time, and we think that having nice graphics to choose from will not really fit with the idea of children creating their own objects.
It is not about graphics per se but about the mindset with which learners approach computing. The noise in the environment today is around digicams and graphics editing. It is hard to draw attention to scripting capabilities above this din :-(.
It is like the early days when a movie camera was used to shoot only staged plays. It took some time before videographers digested its potential and moved onto outdoors, compositing etc.
Regards .. Subbu
Hi, An interesting discussion, and I add my views that parallel some and diverge from others.
More ready-to-use objects may result in a constricted view of Etoys capabilities. More math objects will make it seem like it is most appropriate for mathematics but my impression is that mathematicians already have set their curriculum and resist taking what appears to be a lateral digression into programming. Also, most current textbooks include interactive materials that school districts expect will be used. We can't compete.
It is easy to drag in digital images and sound files already. It is easy to save projects full of specific objects for any number of routine classroom activities. There is room to add drag and drop information in the Quick Guide for both topics. I would be glad to revise those, just let me know when they are needed.
Professional drawings discourage children who can not match that level of skill. . . yet. When I taught music, there was a similar problem using recorded accompaniments and professional singers that came with the textbook. It seemed better for my students to perfect their talents, to really listen to the music they made, rather than hide behind professional musicians and the perfection of recording studio performances.
Maybe we should have a link to proposed additions to Supplies and the Object Catalog. I will mention my bias which is for a continuation of non-violence in Etoys. If more objects are to be added to Supplies, please could we avoid bombs, tanks, military craft, missiles, drones, and any other weapons of mass destruction. Surely there is room in the world for one non-violent introduction to programming. Regards, Kathleen
________________________________________ ________________________________________ From: etoys-dev-bounces@squeakland.org [etoys-dev-bounces@squeakland.org] on behalf of Rita Freudenberg [rita@isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de] Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:03 AM To: Ricardo Moran Cc: etoys-dev@squeakland.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] About Skeleton
Am 31.10.2011 um 03:09 schrieb Ricardo Moran:
On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 4:55 AM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com wrote: Le 29/10/2011 06:46, Ricardo Moran a écrit :
I noticed, however, that most of the kids use Etoys merely as some sort of enhanced powerpoint but few of them actually see its potential for simulations and programming (they use Scratch or TurtleArt for that). I know that my sensation after seeing just a couple of students doesn't count as valid statistics, and I also know that there have been a lot of discussions about this in the list, but I can't help thinking something is wrong and I wanted to share it.
The users always surprise you and they gear freely in a direction different from the one you planed for them :) Steve Jobs was a master to drive the user where he wanted.
Teacher have to cope with their reality, which it is difficult for us after all. So it may suggest to add more graphical tools useful for presentation. Your bubble tools are winning pieces for that :)
Yes, some kids told me they would want more graphics to choose in Etoys (like the ones in Scratch).
We have been discussing this from time to time, and we think that having nice graphics to choose from will not really fit with the idea of children creating their own objects. Seeing graphics that they might not be able to create themselves easily can discourage them from make their own paintings. But what if we create a part on our website where children can upload their paintings so that others can use them?
Just a thought. Greetings, Rita
Cheers, Richo
Hilaire _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
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Rita Freudenberg rita@isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de
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On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Harness, Kathleen kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Hi, An interesting discussion, and I add my views that parallel some and diverge from others.
More ready-to-use objects may result in a constricted view of Etoys capabilities. More math objects will make it seem like it is most appropriate for mathematics but my impression is that mathematicians already have set their curriculum and resist taking what appears to be a lateral digression into programming. Also, most current textbooks include interactive materials that school districts expect will be used. We can't compete.
It is easy to drag in digital images and sound files already. It is easy to save projects full of specific objects for any number of routine classroom activities. There is room to add drag and drop information in the Quick Guide for both topics. I would be glad to revise those, just let me know when they are needed.
Professional drawings discourage children who can not match that level of skill. . . yet. When I taught music, there was a similar problem using recorded accompaniments and professional singers that came with the textbook. It seemed better for my students to perfect their talents, to really listen to the music they made, rather than hide behind professional musicians and the perfection of recording studio performances.
Maybe we should have a link to proposed additions to Supplies and the Object Catalog. I will mention my bias which is for a continuation of non-violence in Etoys. If more objects are to be added to Supplies, please could we avoid bombs, tanks, military craft, missiles, drones, and any other weapons of mass destruction. Surely there is room in the world for one non-violent introduction to programming. Regards, Kathleen
One thing I think is "missing" in Etoys is a better way to use a turtles to make art. Turtle drawings now are mostly backgrounds and take some extra hurdles to be used as costumes for players, saved to files etc. A more intuitive way to do this would be nice.
Karl
From: etoys-dev-bounces@squeakland.org [etoys-dev-bounces@squeakland.org] on behalf of Rita Freudenberg [rita@isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de] Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:03 AM To: Ricardo Moran Cc: etoys-dev@squeakland.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] About Skeleton
Am 31.10.2011 um 03:09 schrieb Ricardo Moran:
On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 4:55 AM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com wrote: Le 29/10/2011 06:46, Ricardo Moran a écrit :
I noticed, however, that most of the kids use Etoys merely as some sort of enhanced powerpoint but few of them actually see its potential for simulations and programming (they use Scratch or TurtleArt for that). I know that my sensation after seeing just a couple of students doesn't count as valid statistics, and I also know that there have been a lot of discussions about this in the list, but I can't help thinking something is wrong and I wanted to share it.
The users always surprise you and they gear freely in a direction different from the one you planed for them :) Steve Jobs was a master to drive the user where he wanted.
Teacher have to cope with their reality, which it is difficult for us after all. So it may suggest to add more graphical tools useful for presentation. Your bubble tools are winning pieces for that :)
Yes, some kids told me they would want more graphics to choose in Etoys (like the ones in Scratch).
We have been discussing this from time to time, and we think that having nice graphics to choose from will not really fit with the idea of children creating their own objects. Seeing graphics that they might not be able to create themselves easily can discourage them from make their own paintings. But what if we create a part on our website where children can upload their paintings so that others can use them?
Just a thought. Greetings, Rita
Cheers, Richo
Hilaire _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
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Rita Freudenberg rita@isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Harness, Kathleen wrote:
It is easy to drag in digital images and sound files already. ... There is room to add drag and drop information in the Quick Guide for both topics.
Yes! Cut and paste too. Since Sugar doesn't have drag and drop or cut and paste as far as I know, could the guide point Sugar users to the alternative on their platform please?
karl ramberg wrote:
One thing I think is "missing" in Etoys is a better way to use a turtles to make art. Turtle drawings now are mostly backgrounds and take some extra hurdles to be used as costumes for players, saved to files etc. A more intuitive way to do this would be nice.
What a great idea for a Summer of Code project for 2012 (if one of the regular contributors doesn't get to it before then.)
David
On 01.11.2011, at 10:48, David Corking wrote:
Harness, Kathleen wrote:
It is easy to drag in digital images and sound files already. ... There is room to add drag and drop information in the Quick Guide for both topics.
Yes! Cut and paste too. Since Sugar doesn't have drag and drop or cut and paste as far as I know, could the guide point Sugar users to the alternative on their platform please?
Sugar has both cut/paste (using ctrl-c and ctrl-v shortcuts) and drag/drop (drag into left edge of frame, switch activity, drag out of frame).
- Bert -
On Tuesday 01 Nov 2011 12:35:56 AM karl ramberg wrote:
One thing I think is "missing" in Etoys is a better way to use a turtles to make art. Turtle drawings now are mostly backgrounds and take some extra hurdles to be used as costumes for players, saved to files etc. A more intuitive way to do this would be nice.
Could you elaborate on these gaps, please?
It is possible to convert trails into sketches using 'pen trail graphic' tiles. Recent check-ins also added support for stencils and silhouettes.
Regards .. Subbu
Hi, Are the recent check-ins adding support for stencils and silhouettes menu items like the one for playfield pen trail? There is a Quick Guide called Script Tile: Playfield Pen Trails. If it is the same mechanism, should we add info to the existing guide? Kathleen ________________________________________ From: K. K. Subramaniam [kksubbu.ml@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 9:00 AM To: etoys-dev@squeakland.org Cc: karl ramberg; Harness, Kathleen Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] About Skeleton
On Tuesday 01 Nov 2011 12:35:56 AM karl ramberg wrote:
One thing I think is "missing" in Etoys is a better way to use a turtles to make art. Turtle drawings now are mostly backgrounds and take some extra hurdles to be used as costumes for players, saved to files etc. A more intuitive way to do this would be nice.
Could you elaborate on these gaps, please?
It is possible to convert trails into sketches using 'pen trail graphic' tiles. Recent check-ins also added support for stencils and silhouettes.
Regards .. Subbu
On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 3:00 PM, K. K. Subramaniam kksubbu.ml@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 01 Nov 2011 12:35:56 AM karl ramberg wrote:
One thing I think is "missing" in Etoys is a better way to use a turtles to make art. Turtle drawings now are mostly backgrounds and take some extra hurdles to be used as costumes for players, saved to files etc. A more intuitive way to do this would be nice.
Could you elaborate on these gaps, please?
It is possible to convert trails into sketches using 'pen trail graphic' tiles.
I had not seen this one. Thanks :-)
Recent check-ins also added support for stencils and silhouettes.
Yes, that one has to be taken care of too !
Karl
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create.
I too like the fact that my spreadsheet it's really simple (although I don't really like my implementation) but if we are thinking of including a table like object, I'm pretty sure Skeleton is the right choice. The only disadvantage I can see is the lack of a scroll bar to manage big amounts of data. I'm thinking this could be solved with a ScrollPane object acting as a playfield where you could drop big objects and use the scrollbars to move around. I tried to do it today but I don't understand how the ScrollPane works exactly.
Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in etoys also.
I don't know if Skeletong allows plots, but as Karl said, it should be possible to build them with it. As for my graphs, IIRC there were a few technical issues preventing them to be included, but I'll see what I can do this weekend to fix them.
Cheers, Richo
Randy
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de bert@freudenbergs.de> wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and
that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects
but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will
have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it:
http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11 http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV files, but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O of csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose.
Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
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On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 1:18 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and basic and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create.
I too like the fact that my spreadsheet it's really simple (although I don't really like my implementation) but if we are thinking of including a table like object, I'm pretty sure Skeleton is the right choice. The only disadvantage I can see is the lack of a scroll bar to manage big amounts of data. I'm thinking this could be solved with a ScrollPane object acting as a playfield where you could drop big objects and use the scrollbars to move around. I tried to do it today but I don't understand how the ScrollPane works exactly.
Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like to see them in etoys also.
I don't know if Skeletong allows plots, but as Karl said, it should be possible to build them with it. As for my graphs, IIRC there were a few technical issues preventing them to be included, but I'll see what I can do this weekend to fix them. Cheers, Richo
Great you are starting to work on this :-) I'll be checking it out too. What did you change from the original code ? I think we have to change the layout of the ticker clock in the spreadsheet, because it now gets kind of cramped.
Karl
Randy
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph, and that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm wondering why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it could be a nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading of external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think we might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box. And it doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison with DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone will have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates from 2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV files, but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we want the I/O of csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose. Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
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On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:12 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 1:18 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Randy Caton rcaton@cnu.edu wrote:
I like the spreadsheet that Ricardo created because it is simple and
basic
and allows I/O. It leaves more for learners to create.
I too like the fact that my spreadsheet it's really simple (although I
don't
really like my implementation) but if we are thinking of including a
table
like object, I'm pretty sure Skeleton is the right choice. The only disadvantage I can see is the lack of a scroll bar to manage big amounts
of
data. I'm thinking this could be solved with a ScrollPane object acting
as a
playfield where you could drop big objects and use the scrollbars to move around. I tried to do it today but I don't understand how the ScrollPane works exactly.
Couldn't the functions already in etoys be used in the cells? Does Skeleton allow plots? If so, then what about Ricardo's graphs? I'd like
to
see them in etoys also.
I don't know if Skeletong allows plots, but as Karl said, it should be possible to build them with it. As for my graphs, IIRC there were a few technical issues preventing them to be included, but I'll see what I can
do
this weekend to fix them. Cheers, Richo
Great you are starting to work on this :-) I'll be checking it out too. What did you change from the original code ?
I haven't changed the original code, I added things :). I added #width: and #height to SkSheetMorph, #additionsToViewerCategories and #initialize to SkSheetMorph class, and a bunch of extension methods to Player.
I think we have to change the layout of the ticker clock in the spreadsheet, because it now gets kind of cramped.
Yes, I think that too. That's easy to fix in SkSheetMorph>>#showPageControls. I don't know where to move the sheet's name, though. I like the fact that it doesn't bother much where it is now.
Cheers, Richo
Karl
Randy
Randall Caton 41596 Bald Eagle Drive Bigfork, MN 56628 218-832-3490 http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bert Freudenberg <
bert@freudenbergs.de>
wrote:
On 11.10.2011, at 14:34, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi,
The squeak list is currently discussing about a spreadsheet morph,
and
that just reminded me about how cool is Skeleton actually. So I'm
wondering
why it is not in Etoys? I found an old discussion stating that it
could be a
nice extension to Etoys but the biggest issue being the slow loading
of
external code. I have to agree with that being a problem but I think
we
might reconsider just include it in the image as with Dr Geo.
I know we already have a bloated image full of half finished projects but from what I briefly tested Skeleton seems to work out of the box.
And it
doesn't add a *huge* amount of new code. See this simple comparison
with
DrGeo:
(PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') systemCategories size. 2 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') classes size. 38 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') methods size. 654 (PackageInfo named: 'Skeleton') linesOfCode. 4765
(PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') systemCategories size. 10 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') classes size. 214 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') methods size. 1863 (PackageInfo named: 'DrGeoII') linesOfCode. 17154
Another issue, I guess, is that if Skeleton gets included someone
will
have to maintain it, but from what I've seen the latest version dates
from
2006 and it still works today. So maybe it won't be that big of an
issue.
Anyway, if you want to test it: http://www.languagegame.org:8080/ggame/11.
Cheers, Richo
How does it compare to the data table thing you did in your GSoC
project?
My data table serves the only purpose of importing/exporting CSV files, but not much else, whereas Skeleton is a proper spreadsheet, it supports functions, and is well integrated with etoys via drag and drop of tiles.
Would be nice to have only one, not two table-like objects.
I agree, but since my table is not integrated anyway, I vote for integrating Skeleton which is much better than what I did. And if we
want
the I/O of csv files, I could find the way of adapting Skeleton. It shouldn't be that difficult, I suppose. Cheers, Richo
- Bert -
squeakland mailing list squeakland@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
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etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
David Corking -
Harness, Kathleen -
Hilaire Fernandes -
K. K. Subramaniam -
karl ramberg -
Randall Caton -
Randy Caton
-
Ricardo Moran -
Rita Freudenberg -
Takashi Yamamiya