We have a fairly confusing story for downloading VMs at the moment, at least so far as I can see. I'm particularly referring to Mac VMs here, since I don't have any idea what the situation with Windows VMs might be.
squeakvm.org/mac points to a cog vm that seems to date itself to 2010, or to an autobuilder for the pharo group at inria (which won't respond to me anyway). Eliot's blog site has a quite separate download folder. There's the jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org as well, of course.
We should probably have a better story than that.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Fractured Idiom:- QUE SERA SERF - Life is feudal
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 05:19:33PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
We have a fairly confusing story for downloading VMs at the moment, at least so far as I can see. I'm particularly referring to Mac VMs here, since I don't have any idea what the situation with Windows VMs might be.
squeakvm.org/mac points to a cog vm that seems to date itself to 2010, or to an autobuilder for the pharo group at inria (which won't respond to me anyway). Eliot's blog site has a quite separate download folder. There's the jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org as well, of course.
We should probably have a better story than that.
John McIntosh turned over responsibility for the Mac VM to a new maintainer:
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-November/155100....
However, there have been no updates to the traditional Mac VM since 2010, and the Mac VM is effectively unmaintained at this time.
Eliot Miranda continues to support Mac with his Cog VMs, and Ian Piumarta provides a Unix VM that runs on OS X (X window required, see squeakvm.org/unix).
With the loss of Andreas Raab we also no longer have an official Windows VM maintainer. As with Mac, Eliot provides Cog support for Windows, and Ian has built a recent interpreter VM for Windows on squeakvm.org.
Branches of the interpreter and Cog VMs are separately maintained by the Pharo group. These have diverged from trunk and I cannot say if they are compatible with standard Squeak interpreter and Cog VMs.
The Jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org is not a source of supported VMs. It serves only to verify the the integrity of the VMMaker source generation process. For supported standard VMs, http://squeakvm.org is the definitive site, with pointers to http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ for Cog.
Dave
some time ago I sent a proposal over this.
in practice, we maintaining all platforms (mac, linux and windows) and the work is available to everybody (and is not just me: Igor, Camillo and Guille work on that too, a lot... and now is Clement doing some work too). And we did not fork, we maintain compatibility.
I didn't resign as mac maintainer, but I see no point on having a different build process that the one I have now (which relies on git, CMakeMaker and Jenkins), and doing it would predate my time (which is not much).
I even tried to add this information into mac page of squeakvm.org (along with different links with the different available links), just to discover I do not have write rights anymore (probably lost in a server change).
That. We are far so few to lose effort duplicating the work of others, and since I'm having a really bad day, please let me say it as a feel it, and I'm sorry if I offend your susceptibility: If you are going to continue ignoring my work just because I program with a different process and in a different environment, please tell me and I will stop losing my time sending mails to this list. Otherwise, we are open for any contributions.
Esteban
On Oct 16, 2013, at 3:02 AM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 05:19:33PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
We have a fairly confusing story for downloading VMs at the moment, at least so far as I can see. I'm particularly referring to Mac VMs here, since I don't have any idea what the situation with Windows VMs might be.
squeakvm.org/mac points to a cog vm that seems to date itself to 2010, or to an autobuilder for the pharo group at inria (which won't respond to me anyway). Eliot's blog site has a quite separate download folder. There's the jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org as well, of course.
We should probably have a better story than that.
John McIntosh turned over responsibility for the Mac VM to a new maintainer:
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-November/155100....
However, there have been no updates to the traditional Mac VM since 2010, and the Mac VM is effectively unmaintained at this time.
Eliot Miranda continues to support Mac with his Cog VMs, and Ian Piumarta provides a Unix VM that runs on OS X (X window required, see squeakvm.org/unix).
With the loss of Andreas Raab we also no longer have an official Windows VM maintainer. As with Mac, Eliot provides Cog support for Windows, and Ian has built a recent interpreter VM for Windows on squeakvm.org.
Branches of the interpreter and Cog VMs are separately maintained by the Pharo group. These have diverged from trunk and I cannot say if they are compatible with standard Squeak interpreter and Cog VMs.
The Jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org is not a source of supported VMs. It serves only to verify the the integrity of the VMMaker source generation process. For supported standard VMs, http://squeakvm.org is the definitive site, with pointers to http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ for Cog.
Dave
On 10/16/13, Esteban Lorenzano estebanlm@gmail.com wrote:
some time ago I sent a proposal over this.
Esteban, could you please resend it or provide a link to it?
--Hannes
in practice, we maintaining all platforms (mac, linux and windows) and the work is available to everybody (and is not just me: Igor, Camillo and Guille work on that too, a lot... and now is Clement doing some work too). And we did not fork, we maintain compatibility.
I didn't resign as mac maintainer, but I see no point on having a different build process that the one I have now (which relies on git, CMakeMaker and Jenkins), and doing it would predate my time (which is not much).
I even tried to add this information into mac page of squeakvm.org (along with different links with the different available links), just to discover I do not have write rights anymore (probably lost in a server change).
That. We are far so few to lose effort duplicating the work of others, and since I'm having a really bad day, please let me say it as a feel it, and I'm sorry if I offend your susceptibility: If you are going to continue ignoring my work just because I program with a different process and in a different environment, please tell me and I will stop losing my time sending mails to this list. Otherwise, we are open for any contributions.
Esteban
On Oct 16, 2013, at 3:02 AM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 05:19:33PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
We have a fairly confusing story for downloading VMs at the moment, at least so far as I can see. I'm particularly referring to Mac VMs here, since I don't have any idea what the situation with Windows VMs might be.
squeakvm.org/mac points to a cog vm that seems to date itself to 2010, or to an autobuilder for the pharo group at inria (which won't respond to me anyway). Eliot's blog site has a quite separate download folder. There's the jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org as well, of course.
We should probably have a better story than that.
John McIntosh turned over responsibility for the Mac VM to a new maintainer:
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-November/155100....
However, there have been no updates to the traditional Mac VM since 2010, and the Mac VM is effectively unmaintained at this time.
Eliot Miranda continues to support Mac with his Cog VMs, and Ian Piumarta provides a Unix VM that runs on OS X (X window required, see squeakvm.org/unix).
With the loss of Andreas Raab we also no longer have an official Windows VM maintainer. As with Mac, Eliot provides Cog support for Windows, and Ian has built a recent interpreter VM for Windows on squeakvm.org.
Branches of the interpreter and Cog VMs are separately maintained by the Pharo group. These have diverged from trunk and I cannot say if they are compatible with standard Squeak interpreter and Cog VMs.
The Jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org is not a source of supported VMs. It serves only to verify the the integrity of the VMMaker source generation process. For supported standard VMs, http://squeakvm.org is the definitive site, with pointers to http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ for Cog.
Dave
On Oct 16, 2013, at 12:20 PM, H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/16/13, Esteban Lorenzano estebanlm@gmail.com wrote:
some time ago I sent a proposal over this.
Esteban, could you please resend it or provide a link to it?
http://forum.world.st/Broken-links-on-http-squeakvm-org-mac-amp-Latest-offic...
--Hannes
in practice, we maintaining all platforms (mac, linux and windows) and the work is available to everybody (and is not just me: Igor, Camillo and Guille work on that too, a lot... and now is Clement doing some work too). And we did not fork, we maintain compatibility.
I didn't resign as mac maintainer, but I see no point on having a different build process that the one I have now (which relies on git, CMakeMaker and Jenkins), and doing it would predate my time (which is not much).
I even tried to add this information into mac page of squeakvm.org (along with different links with the different available links), just to discover I do not have write rights anymore (probably lost in a server change).
That. We are far so few to lose effort duplicating the work of others, and since I'm having a really bad day, please let me say it as a feel it, and I'm sorry if I offend your susceptibility: If you are going to continue ignoring my work just because I program with a different process and in a different environment, please tell me and I will stop losing my time sending mails to this list. Otherwise, we are open for any contributions.
Esteban
On Oct 16, 2013, at 3:02 AM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 05:19:33PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
We have a fairly confusing story for downloading VMs at the moment, at least so far as I can see. I'm particularly referring to Mac VMs here, since I don't have any idea what the situation with Windows VMs might be.
squeakvm.org/mac points to a cog vm that seems to date itself to 2010, or to an autobuilder for the pharo group at inria (which won't respond to me anyway). Eliot's blog site has a quite separate download folder. There's the jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org as well, of course.
We should probably have a better story than that.
John McIntosh turned over responsibility for the Mac VM to a new maintainer:
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-November/155100....
However, there have been no updates to the traditional Mac VM since 2010, and the Mac VM is effectively unmaintained at this time.
Eliot Miranda continues to support Mac with his Cog VMs, and Ian Piumarta provides a Unix VM that runs on OS X (X window required, see squeakvm.org/unix).
With the loss of Andreas Raab we also no longer have an official Windows VM maintainer. As with Mac, Eliot provides Cog support for Windows, and Ian has built a recent interpreter VM for Windows on squeakvm.org.
Branches of the interpreter and Cog VMs are separately maintained by the Pharo group. These have diverged from trunk and I cannot say if they are compatible with standard Squeak interpreter and Cog VMs.
The Jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org is not a source of supported VMs. It serves only to verify the the integrity of the VMMaker source generation process. For supported standard VMs, http://squeakvm.org is the definitive site, with pointers to http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ for Cog.
Dave
I really hope you didn't think of my message as an attack on you, Esteban, because it wasn't aimed at anyone. Somehow, collectively, we've got into a bit of a mess and we have to communally get out of it.
I can't make any sort of comment on any of the assorted build mechanisms currently in use (except my own very simple RISC OS setup which is as simple as I think it could possibly be, because there aren't any complicated multi-platform issues that plague RISC OS) because I've carefully not dealt with any of the insanely complex unix build requirements I first saw when Ian wrote the initial autoconf stuff. It scares me. Which is best, how best to use it… that's up to other people. It seems to me that having multiple source repositories is dangerous, so we need some coming together on that. My only input there would be "please make sure it is eventually something I can make use with RISC OS, somehow".
The bit I care about is making the results easy to find, evaluate and download. Clearly, some improvement is needed in several places. The simplest part to fix is probably to make sure you have permissions to update the mac page on squeakvm.org. The thing is, when I go to squeak.org and download a vm I expect to get something that calls itself a squeak vm - and similarly if I go to pharo.org to get a pharo package I expect a pharo vm. It's not any sort of judgement about the quality of either but it you downloaded something thinking it was Pages you'd be a bit confused if it called itself Word.
As for squeak vs pharo code - it seems to me that pharo forked in order to do different things (or why fork?) and so I'd expect differences to arise over time. If we have an effective code management system in place that shouldn't be an obstacle to sharing as much code as possible and building all required combinations of vm. Hopefully we can make it all a bit simpler than the long list of different build processes Tobias listed in his 25 sept message.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- His future is behind schedule.
On Oct 17, 2013, at 2:43 AM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
I really hope you didn't think of my message as an attack on you, Esteban, because it wasn't aimed at anyone. Somehow, collectively, we've got into a bit of a mess and we have to communally get out of it.
yes, I know :) don't worry, it was ok... is just that the mail put in my eyes a long-time situation :)
I can't make any sort of comment on any of the assorted build mechanisms currently in use (except my own very simple RISC OS setup which is as simple as I think it could possibly be, because there aren't any complicated multi-platform issues that plague RISC OS) because I've carefully not dealt with any of the insanely complex unix build requirements I first saw when Ian wrote the initial autoconf stuff. It scares me. Which is best, how best to use it… that's up to other people. It seems to me that having multiple source repositories is dangerous, so we need some coming together on that. My only input there would be "please make sure it is eventually something I can make use with RISC OS, somehow".
The bit I care about is making the results easy to find, evaluate and download. Clearly, some improvement is needed in several places. The simplest part to fix is probably to make sure you have permissions to update the mac page on squeakvm.org. The thing is, when I go to squeak.org and download a vm I expect to get something that calls itself a squeak vm - and similarly if I go to pharo.org to get a pharo package I expect a pharo vm. It's not any sort of judgement about the quality of either but it you downloaded something thinking it was Pages you'd be a bit confused if it called itself Word.
As for squeak vs pharo code - it seems to me that pharo forked in order to do different things (or why fork?) and so I'd expect differences to arise over time. If we have an effective code management system in place that shouldn't be an obstacle to sharing as much code as possible and building all required combinations of vm. Hopefully we can make it all a bit simpler than the long list of different build processes Tobias listed in his 25 sept message.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- His future is behind schedule.
Esteban,
I do not know if the Mac Pharo VM is suitable for running Squeak, and I cannot say if this has ever been tested. It is definitely not suitable for running older Squeak images, and it would be hard to recommend it for general use without some assurance that it has been tested. If you can provide an update on this, it would be helpful (I do not have a Mac, so I cannot help you with this).
The interpreter VM is used for running images that cannot be run on Cog (i.e. image format 6504 images). Since three years, all interpreter VMs have been able to do this. The interpreter VM for Mac is now so old that it causes problems for people who expect the VM to "just work". This affects Mac users who want to run Etoys, Scratch, etc.
In your earlier message, you said "I've ensured that all the changes I made to the VM are also accessible to everybody that is willing to take it". The problem is with "everybody that is willing to take it". That is the job of the VM platform maintainer, and currently it is not being done.
Dave
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 11:04:47AM +0200, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
some time ago I sent a proposal over this.
in practice, we maintaining all platforms (mac, linux and windows) and the work is available to everybody (and is not just me: Igor, Camillo and Guille work on that too, a lot... and now is Clement doing some work too). And we did not fork, we maintain compatibility.
I didn't resign as mac maintainer, but I see no point on having a different build process that the one I have now (which relies on git, CMakeMaker and Jenkins), and doing it would predate my time (which is not much).
I even tried to add this information into mac page of squeakvm.org (along with different links with the different available links), just to discover I do not have write rights anymore (probably lost in a server change).
That. We are far so few to lose effort duplicating the work of others, and since I'm having a really bad day, please let me say it as a feel it, and I'm sorry if I offend your susceptibility: If you are going to continue ignoring my work just because I program with a different process and in a different environment, please tell me and I will stop losing my time sending mails to this list. Otherwise, we are open for any contributions.
Esteban
On Oct 16, 2013, at 3:02 AM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 05:19:33PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
We have a fairly confusing story for downloading VMs at the moment, at least so far as I can see. I'm particularly referring to Mac VMs here, since I don't have any idea what the situation with Windows VMs might be.
squeakvm.org/mac points to a cog vm that seems to date itself to 2010, or to an autobuilder for the pharo group at inria (which won't respond to me anyway). Eliot's blog site has a quite separate download folder. There's the jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org as well, of course.
We should probably have a better story than that.
John McIntosh turned over responsibility for the Mac VM to a new maintainer:
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-November/155100....
However, there have been no updates to the traditional Mac VM since 2010, and the Mac VM is effectively unmaintained at this time.
Eliot Miranda continues to support Mac with his Cog VMs, and Ian Piumarta provides a Unix VM that runs on OS X (X window required, see squeakvm.org/unix).
With the loss of Andreas Raab we also no longer have an official Windows VM maintainer. As with Mac, Eliot provides Cog support for Windows, and Ian has built a recent interpreter VM for Windows on squeakvm.org.
Branches of the interpreter and Cog VMs are separately maintained by the Pharo group. These have diverged from trunk and I cannot say if they are compatible with standard Squeak interpreter and Cog VMs.
The Jenkins autobuilder at build.squeak.org is not a source of supported VMs. It serves only to verify the the integrity of the VMMaker source generation process. For supported standard VMs, http://squeakvm.org is the definitive site, with pointers to http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ for Cog.
Dave
vm-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org