etoys-dev April 2010

etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

20 participants
34 discussions

GSoC - Progress on the graphing tools
by Ricardo Moran 18 Apr '10

18 Apr '10

Hi, As some of you may know, I've proposed myself as a student for the "Squeakland Education Project" at this year Google Summer of Code. You can find the project description here: http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/squeakland-education. Even though our project hasn't been accepted yet, I've been working already in one of the items of the proposal: the graphing of data. For that purpose I made a few tools that allow you to draw points and vectors in a cartesian plane using the Etoys scripting system. This is a work in progress and I need to clean a lot of stuff, but I wanted to show you my progress so far. My mentors, Randall and Markus, have helped me a lot to develop this stuff and, as Bert said, it would be good to show this to the entire community. You can find the source code at squeaksource: http://www.squeaksource.com/GSoCSqueakland.html and some example projects at: http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton/ESUG/ESUG.html I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you may have to improve or extend these projects. Thanks in advance! Richo

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17 Apr '10

I had a class today and was not able to login to squeakland from within Etoys. "Internal Server Error 500" This has been going on a while. http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-688 Most frustrating. Changed status to Critical. CriticalCrashes, loss of data, high risk (technical or schedule) *extremely embarassing.* Cannot ship or proceed! *Stomachechurns*. *Must resolve ASAP!* Stephen

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Waveplace at the epicenter in Haiti
by Timothy Falconer 16 Apr '10

16 Apr '10

(from a recent Waveplace blog post by Beth Santos ... Joseph is one of our Haitian mentors) Yesterday I sat down with Joseph's brother, Abela, who works with Haiti Partners. We were sitting under his little tin roof lean-to, looking at the remains of his home- a beautiful two-story building that is now a couple of tiles and lots of space. He praised the [Waveplace] program and seemed so pleased that it was going well here in Leogane. I told him that there are a number of people in the USA that believe that laptops are not the answer right now, especially in areas like Leogane that are most affected by the earthquake. He and Joseph looked at me like I was crazy. “Are you kidding??” he asked. “Food, water, sure, we need that. But EDUCATION- that's what we really need right now! Without it, how will we be able to build our own?” Joseph added the fact that the kids in Leogane need something to focus on, more than anything. So many children have PTSD and they just need to look forward. They feel helpless and they need to make use of themselves, and take their minds off of what happened to them and their families. Abela sat for a moment. We told him how grateful we were for his hospitality and he fell silent. When he spoke, he told us about how, after the earthquake, everyone went to stay in camps but he couldn't do it. He would come home everyday, early in the morning, and sit outside his house and just be quiet. He says his post-traumatic stress is terrible. We think of the children who are still staying in tents, and we think about how our education program is helping their minds to not only escape, but to grow. These children finally feel that they are worth something. And in Leogane, the program is more valuable than anything. (for more, read here: http://waveplace.org/news/blog ... photos and more video coming soon) -- Timothy Falconer Waveplace Foundation http://waveplace.org + 1 610 624 3760

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Squeakland is down
by Bert Freudenberg 15 Apr '10

15 Apr '10

http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/squeakland.org - Bert -

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Back from Haiti
by Timothy Falconer 15 Apr '10

15 Apr '10

Hello everyone, I'm back from Haiti, both literally and figuratively. Since the earthquake, nearly all of my time has been spent on the seven Etoys pilots that have started or will soon start in four different regions of Haiti. To follow our progress, read the Waveplace blog and see the two videos at http://waveplace.org/news/. We'll be adding a great many photos in the next few days. Connectivity was very bad, so we are only uploading photos now. While it may appear that Haiti has benefitted at the expense of Squeakland so far this year, I think quite the opposite is true. The earthquake crisis has drawn Etoys into the center of a conversation that is now happening between many interested groups. I've basically spent the last three months talking, talking, talking. Throughout, I have positioned Squeakland as a source of educational materials. I've depicted Etoys as a learning platform that is very appropriate for a country that has no money for school buildings or materials. In short, I have been laying the groundwork for our fundraising efforts to finish the Squeakland courseware and to improve Etoys itself and its translations. Along the way, we have also created and tested a brand new set of Basic Etoys lessons, which can be found here: http://waveplace.com/resources/tutorials/ We have lesson plans, handouts, and sample projects for each of these lessons, both in English and Haitian Creole. Randy Caton has created a mathematics unit that we will use this month in Haiti. We are also creating a Storytelling unit. We will soon have a complete set of the Basic Etoys screencasts in Haitian Creole as well. Please take the 90 minutes needed to watch these videos and let me know what you think. We will soon begin creating Spanish (and probably Portuguese) versions, so any feedback will have an immediate impact. The Squeakland education team is currently deciding whether to include these lessons in the official Squeakland courseware, so positive comments will also help. Send your comments to squeakland-at-squeakland.org. As for the business team, software team, and board, we will start regular meetings again starting today: * software team: Mondays at 3pm ET (19:00 GMT) on #etoys on the freenode.net network (or chat.squeakland.org) * business team: Wednesdays at 3pm ET (19:00 GMT) by Skype ... send me a private email if you wish to join the team * board meeting: as soon as we can schedule it As always, the minutes or transcripts from all of these meetings will be available on our wiki or chat logs. If you'd like to volunteer to help any of the teams, please let us know, either by responding here, or clicking "contact" on squeakland.org. Thanks everyone. My humblest apologies for being unavailable over the last three months, but now that I am on the other side of the mountain, I can say with certainty that Squeakland will benefit from this unexpected detour. Take care, Tim -- Timothy Falconer Squeakland Foundation http://squeakland.org 610-797-3100 -- "Intelligence is what you use when you don't know what to do." ... piaget

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etoys broken on ubuntu 10.04
by Jerome Peace 14 Apr '10

14 Apr '10

Hi all, Just a heads up. Came across this in my travels. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/etoys/+bug/561332 bad path to squeak virtual machine

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Etoys developer meeting notes
by Bert Freudenberg 13 Apr '10

13 Apr '10

Hi all, we just finished our weekly Etoys developer meeting. If you want to join next time: Mondays 12 pm (noon) L.A. time in IRC #etoys on freenode.net. Present: Bert (bertf), Tim (teefal), Yoshiki (ohshima), Jecel (jecel), Andreas (bander), Hilaire (hilaire) * Andreas presented an interesting idea on migrating projects to new Squeak versions. Loading an instance of a class that changed semantically in the mean time (that is, not necessarily changed shape) would actually create a complete new instance with the new semantics. * Bert talked briefly about a trunk-like update model for Etoys based on Monticello * Jecel noted that recent versions of DrGeo depend on the "Polymorph" UI enhancements. Luckily Hilaire joined and explained there were goiing to be two different DrGeo versions. He also wants to get in a few fixes so he asked about our release schedule ... * ... which we discussed briefly. We tentatively settled on feature freeze in May and release some time before Squeakfest (so July latest, preferably June). * As for actual release features, I wrote my top-priorities in the last mail (translatability, enable contributors). Tim would like a "facelift". * The meeting was over by then, but a discussion ensued on the organization of Squeakland itself. This is going to be discussed in the next Squeakland Board meeting. Detailed meeting log below. - Bert - <bertf> bander: nice to see you here :) <bertf> ohshima: hi again <bertf> anybody else here for the meeting? <teefal> @HELP Etoys-Dev Meeting starting now <teefal> --- <ohshima> Hi. I may not be "here" in person during the meeting however. <teefal> --- SOFTWARE TEAM MEET START --- <bertf> ohshima: "in person"? <teefal> hi bander, hi ohshima <teefal> hi bertf <teefal> jecel? <bertf> hi teefal. you want to run the meeting? <teefal> dak_? <teefal> sure <teefal> dangjavageek? <teefal> donghee_? <teefal> kencausey? <teefal> rgs_? <jecel> teefal: I'm here <teefal> saijanai_? <teefal> walterbender? <bertf> hi jecel <teefal> hi jecel! <bertf> well okay, I outlined my points in the invitation. what's on your list? <bander> hi guys <teefal> well, i'm just back from Haiti, where we trained 20 Haitians to use Etoys, who will then teach 160 kids <rgs_> teefal: yes <teefal> "The most important topic for today is how to restart actual development work. Either use the new update stream I made or switch to Monticello as soon as possible." <teefal> "As for actual work to be done I think this summer's release should integrate bug fixes and focus on translation issues. We should add the translated quickguides, and break up the one huge po file into smaller pieces (the #1 request of translators)." <teefal> "Feature-wise we will add Dr Geo as previously agreed. I'm not aware of other features that are ready-to-go yet, but we'll be wiser when the release is more in reach." <bertf> those are from my invitation, yes <bertf> guess that's why bander is here :) <bander> I'm interested in discussing Etoys project conversion <bander> I have a cunning plan :-) <teefal> .pr conversion? <bertf> oh. cool. let's hear it :) <bander> yup <teefal> translation? <bander> It's gonna take a while - you got time? <teefal> sure <bertf> teefal: update to newer Squeak I'd guess <bander> bertf: correct <jecel> with the closure VM, right? <bertf> eventually, yes <bander> the problem with project conversion is that we need a more "semantic" conversion than we have today <bertf> and Cog :) :) <bertf> ah, luckily ohshima is here <bander> so what I'm intending to do is to change project loading that all classes that are loaded are mapped to proxy classes first <bander> I.e., SystemWindow -> ProxySystemWindowEtoys4 <bander> These would match the layout of the 'old classes' <bander> Then, these dudes can perform semantic conversion <bander> For example: ProxySystemWindowEtoys4 would delete all but the panel widgets <bander> It would merely create a new SystemWindow, add those panels, return that <bander> For unchanged classes, you'd keep the originals with the option to proxy them if there have been semantic changes <bander> The proxy classes can be bundled up in some MC package i.e., "Etoys4-Import" <bertf> How would you make the proxies? <bander> You write 'em - perhaps with some help from the importer in creating proper class stubs <bander> It's not fully automatic - it can't be <bertf> right <bander> So that's roughly it - it's a process rather than a finished solution but I think it could work <bertf> well, not too different from teh class-reshape methods we have already <bertf> or am I missing something? <bander> VERY different :-) <bander> Have you tried loading a SystemWindow exported in 3.10 into 4.1? <bertf> becasue it's higher-level <bertf> not yet <bander> I used this example for a reason - there are no class shapes; there are semantic differences <bander> Things like event handlers <bertf> right <bander> And it gives us a specific way to handle imports from various Etoys versions if we can identify the version beforehand <bander> I.e., there might be ProxySystemWindow38 and ProxySystemWindowEtoys4 that do different things <jecel> Yes, it would be great to unbreak some older projects that don't current load <bander> When I was looking at Edgar's issues it dawned to me that we need more semantic conversion here. <bander> Preserve the user content, throw away the old stuff that is no longer in use <bertf> sounds like it could work <teefal> what's your guess as to: <teefal> 1. delay of development (brokenness period) <teefal> 2. degree of risk (code stability) <teefal> my concern is that we don't really have a robust testing team/process <bander> 1) No clue. Depends on how much time people have, and how many projects we can test against. <bander> 2) Very low, because these changes are 'side-ways' they are independent of other changes <teefal> okay, glad to hear #2 <teefal> once you start the changes, will it impact other development? <bander> Probably not, though it's hard to say for suer. <bertf> it's largely orthogonal <bertf> this would happen in trunk <teefal> well, i'm for more flexibility, certainly <bertf> we need to move closer to trunk to get developer brainshare <teefal> when you say trunk, you mean squeak trunk, yes? <bertf> yes <bander> With regards to testing, one good thing is that Edgar has been asking for better project support, so this will be an excellent test case. When the fundamentals are in place, the Etoys import should "just" be an application of the mechanism <bertf> oh man, that's exciting :) <bertf> I really need to sit down and port the etoys stuff to trunk <bander> I've always considered projects the 'deal-breaker' when it comes to move to a different basis... <teefal> so changes will all be on the squeak side, with etoys eventually getting connected/merged with squeak trunk? <teefal> ah, port to trunk ... how much work is that? <jecel> Which is why the Scratch people originally planned to never change their base (didn't quite work out) <bander> Yes, that would be the idea. Migrate Etoys to Squeak 4.1 / 4.2. <bertf> teefal: that's one thing we're talking about today <bertf> jecel: well Scratch has it a lot simpler since they have a separate model for projects <jecel> bertf: Ah, I thought they used the same. But given that they have a Java player I should have guessed it wasn't so simple <bertf> bander: you've done this already - how much effort do you think would it be to switch the Etoys image from an update stream to a trunk-like update model? <bertf> Karl started on packetizing the image <bertf> I tried on the weekend <teefal> trunk-like update model = monticello? <bertf> but ran into a few troubles ... still think it shouldn't be that much effort <bertf> teefal: yes <bander> bertf: Can't say for sure; too many variables <bander> The only real way to find out is to give it a shot then discuss how it fails and how to get out of it <bertf> that's my approach exactly ;) <bertf> ok, you know where to find me the next weekends ;) <jecel> Wasn't the main issue moving classes/method between packages so Trunk and Etoys match? <bander> It's definitely one of them <bertf> jecel: yes <bertf> but also even loading a moder Monticello version is not trivial <bertf> modern <bander> It may be worthwhile to approach it differently <bander> You might try to identify the packages in Etoys and load those directly into a trunk image <bertf> jecel: the moving is what I meant with "packetizing" <bander> Then find out what's missing and decide how to fix that <jecel> That was supposed to be the advantage of LevelPlayingField, but it didn't work for me in Etoys <bertf> bander: I wouldn't bet the farm yet on etoys-on-trunk. not for this summer's release <bertf> jecel: neither for me <bander> Hell, no! <bander> bertf: This is for next year's release not this years <bander> Sorry if I gave the wrong impression! <bertf> but I'd still want to switch development to monticello <bertf> now <bander> Ah, got it - I thought you were still at Etoys conversion <bertf> bander: that's more for teefal's benefit <bertf> it's a prerequisite step anyway <teefal> well, it certainly sounds like the right move long term <jecel> bertf: I think Matthew had Monticello working in Etoys at one point. Or perhaps he was using a regular Squeak omage on his XO? <teefal> we need more etoys developers, and being on trunk w/monticello, from what i hear, will really help <bertf> jecel: don't know. in the etoys-dev image there still is an old MC version <bertf> we could start from that <bertf> that's what Karl did anyway <bander> It really shouldn't be so hard to get the latest MC from trunk into Etoys - there are plenty of tests. <bertf> bander: saw my mail on squeak-dev? <bander> the one about ifNotNil: etc? <bertf> eys <bertf> and the later oneabout pragmas <bertf> but at least that's solved already :) <bander> how does that affect MC? <bertf> MC in trunk uses pragmas and ifNotNil: with an argument <bertf> that's a syntax error on a 3.8 compiler <teefal> okay, i need to go ... trying to keep meets to half an hour, but feel free to keep talking <teefal> as always <bertf> thannks teefal <teefal> we have a laundry list of things from our pilots that i'll post as issues, hopefully many will be easy fixes for new people to try <teefal> bye <bertf> bander: guess forst thing I'll push into the update stream is Eliot's pragma stuff <bertf> first <bander> Weird - didn't think MC used pragmas; we should be able to remove those uses. <bertf> bander: there is one preference <bander> Remote it for the Etoys image! <bander> s/remote/remove <bertf> yes, might do that too <bertf> didn't get a response on squeak-dev really about this <bander> I would fork MC, fix the issues you have in Etoys and use that version. <bander> That way you can also update any improvements you need from the trunk <bertf> yes. guess that's easier than fighting it <bander> KISS :-) <bertf> :) <bertf> okay, thanks for that project idea <bertf> I'll send meeting notes <bertf> anything else we might talk about today? <jecel> Dr. Geo <bertf> jecel: ah, you caught that ;) <bertf> what about it? <jecel> I am 100% in favor of including it, but noticed that the latest version depnds on Polymorph <bertf> I'd hope we simply load the ... urgh <jecel> The previous version should work just fine, but we should talk to Hilare about his plans <bertf> guess Hilaire got fed up with having to wait so long <bertf> yes, I'll send him a separate mail <bander> okay gotta run <bander> nice seeing y'all <bertf> thanks everyone! <bertf> see you next week <bertf> (and I hope I'll remember to announce it in #squeak too, then) --> hilaire (~hilaire(a)bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys <bertf> ah, hilaire, awesome! <hilaire> getting busy lately <bertf> good for you I hope? <bertf> we talked about Dr. Geo, and I hoped we would simply load the package, but Jecel mentioned it mightdepend on Polymorph? <bertf> hilaire? <jecel> The version he is currently developing. There is a version ready to load into Etoys already, right? <bertf> http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-324 <hilaire> yes <hilaire> there will be two versions with the same core but different UI <hilaire> bertf: I am totally exhausted, some student drive me nuts <bertf> hilaire: I can feel with you ;) <bertf> that's good to know <bertf> so we'll go with the version attached to the ticket <jecel> hilaire: that sound like a good plan. The idea is to have relatively few changes to Etoys for this summer and leave radical changes for next year <bertf> hilaire: our meeting is over anyway. anything else you would like to speak about? <hilaire> No, not really, I just read your email a few minutes ago <hilaire> For the short term, I need to figureout some bugs I want to fix in the core. <hilaire> What is the delay for next Etoys version <bertf> you mean the target release date? <hilaire> right <jecel> I think it is supposed to come out before the start of the school year in the northern hemisphere <jecel> So a month or two before September <bertf> well we have not really settled on a schedule yet <bertf> I'd ratehr want to have it earlier, before thevacation season <teefal> earliest ... squeakfest ... latest ... mid aug <teefal> or perhaps earlier <teefal> mid june is start of vacation <hilaire> ok, so I have plenty of time for last fixes in DrGeo <bertf> hilaire: yes, it's not out for a month at least <teefal> "Squeakfest 2010 will be held from July, 26 - 28 in Wilmington, NC. " <teefal> I'd say we should really shoot for July 26th <teefal> or earlier --> scottwal (~scottwal(a)cpe-74-64-100-18.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #etoys <jecel> I wonder if there will be another SqueakFest in Brazil this year? <teefal> perhaps june 21st for feature freeze? <teefal> jecel, talk to marta ... so far, no, or at least not by that name <bertf> I'm on vacation in July, so earlier would be better <bertf> feature freeze can be much earlier, we do not have many features planned anyway <teefal> we're having a big etoys workshop in st john starting May 22 <teefal> perhaps feature freeze may 22 <teefal> code freeze june 22 <teefal> or something like that <teefal> two months for testing <bertf> I don't think that workshop affects the development schedule in any way ;) <hilaire> bed time for me <hilaire> bye. <bertf> thanks hilaire <-- hilaire (~hilaire(a)bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has left #etoys <jecel> teefal: last year it was able to take advantage of that large educational conference the following week. This year it would have to be stand-alone, and now Marta knows how much work one of these things are :-) <bertf> but feature freeze in May sounds good <teefal> st john pilot ... big opportunity to test new etoys release <teefal> 40 new mentors <teefal> much opportunity for feedback <bertf> jecel: Marta said that *if* there was a Squeakfest in Brasil this year it would not be before September <bertf> teefal: true. let's see what feedback we get from the last workshop <jecel> bertf: thanks. That is a more reasonable time to fly south (not so cold) <jecel> Are major changes to the looks still planned for this release? And if not, will it still be called Etoys 5.0? <teefal> it's doubtful though we will be changing the easy stuff <teefal> gallery layout, etc <teefal> perhaps the load/save boxes <teefal> don't know about etoys 5 <teefal> depends on how different it is <teefal> probably won't be <bertf> jecel: any opinion on the version number? <jecel> It should reflect the level of changes (specially visual changes given our audience) <teefal> let's write this up as an email to etoys-dev and discuss at the next software meet <teefal> i'd love to do as much visual improvements as we can ... paint box, etc <teefal> just to bring etoys into this decade :) <teefal> perhaps that's what the next release is ... a facelift <bertf> jecel: it will definitely be much less visually different than the 3 to 4 change <bertf> teefal: facelift isn't exactly on the top priority list [further discussion was not directly related to the software meeting, snipped]

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Software meeting today
by Bert Freudenberg 12 Apr '10

12 Apr '10

Hi all, we should start having developers meetings more regularly again. As de-facto Squeakland dev team leader I invite you to participate on freenode, channel #etoys at Monday noon L.A. time. For today this would be http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=12&month=4&year=2010&h… The most important topic for today is how to restart actual development work. Either use the new update stream I made or switch to Monticello as soon as possible. I worked on the latter on the weekend, you probably have seen this thread on squeak-dev: http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-April/148589.ht… As for actual work to be done I think this summer's release should integrate bug fixes and focus on translation issues. We should add the translated quickguides, and break up the one huge po file into smaller pieces (the #1 request of translators). Feature-wise we will add Dr Geo as previously agreed. I'm not aware of other features that are ready-to-go yet, but we'll be wiser when the release is more in reach. - Bert -

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Re: [sq-education] repeat-tile
by Steve Thomas 10 Apr '10

10 Apr '10

Rita, If I put three sounds in a script without any repeat tile, you experience the same problem (ie: the three sounds played at the same time), so I do not believe the problem is with the Repeat tile. The more general problem is how do you play a sound (of arbitrary length, for example recording lines in a script) in sequence. I have experienced the same problem/frustration in Etoys myself. Scratch solves this problem by providing two tiles: - "play <sound>" - starts the sound playing and immediately executes the next tile (as Etoys "make sound <croak>" currently does - "play <sound> until done" - plays the sound until done then executes the next tile Another nice feature of is the "wait" tile which allows you to pause a script for a period of time which is useful in animated cartoons which really motivate kids and I believe is one of the reasons kids prefer Scratch. Another nice feature I would like to see to help sequence events is the implementation of a "wait" tile which pauses the execution of a script for a period of time at the wait tile. FYI to solve your problem (how to play a sound or sequence of sounds one after the other) you can create a script that ticks for some unit of time (lets say 1/2 second) and have a counter that increments upon each iteration of the script. Then at the appropriate time/count you can play the next sound in the sequence. I did something similar in the Cartoon example (The Holder Episosde 1v2 <http://www.squeakland.org/showcase/project.jsp?id=9497> which due to the joys of the squeakland website, I have not been able to make public). Frankly sequencing was cumbersome in that I had to know how long each recorded sound was and would have preferred a simpler method. I have included the developer list to get their comments as well. Stephen On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Rita Freudenberg < rita(a)isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> wrote: > > On Mar 26, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Steve Thomas wrote: > > Yes I have used the repeat tile in a number of projects. Usually in > iterating through objects in a collections. > > What was the specific problem? > > Can you provide more details on how it does not fit within the Etoys > philosophy? > > > The problem is, that tiles in a script are timeless. Everything in a script > happens at the same time. for instance, when you put a "make sound" tile in > a repeat tile and then say "repeat 3 times", you will not hear 3 sounds one > after the other, but at the same time. This happens with every tile. It is > confusing when you put tiles in, that do something you can watch or hear. > So what happens is not the same as what you think would happen when looking > at the script. But in Etoys you should be able to explain the behaviour from > looking at the script, I think. > > Rita > > > Stephen > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Rita Freudenberg < > rita(a)isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> did you ever use the repeat tile? This is a new tile which you can get >> when you click on the supplies icon in a script. >> During my workshop this week we tried to use it and we had problems, >> because it worked not the way we expected. It is something special, which >> is also not fitting very well with the Etoys philosophy. So how about >> removing it, since it is mostly confusing? >> >> It would not be removed completely, so that older projects would still >> work and you can find it if you explicitly search for it in the object >> catalog. But it would be removed from the supplies menu in the scripts. >> What do you think? >> >> Greetings, >> Rita > > > >

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Re: [etoys-dev] Re: repeat-tile
by Bert Freudenberg 09 Apr '10

09 Apr '10

On 08.04.2010, at 23:08, Steve Thomas wrote: > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:23 PM, karl ramberg <karlramberg(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Bert Freudenberg <bert(a)freudenbergs.de> wrote: > > On 08.04.2010, at 18:52, K. K. Subramaniam wrote: > >> > >> On Thursday 08 April 2010 02:47:13 pm Bert Freudenberg wrote: > >>> In fact, turtle graphics might be the one intrinsically useful application > >>> of the repeat tile. If that is so, how about moving it to the pen > >>> category? > >> Repeat is convenient outside of pen drawing. > > > > Do you have an example? > > > >> Sure, one can write scripts > >> without it but repetition is intuitive operation for kids and dropping it > >> would be a pity. > > > > No, it usually does not do what it intuitively should do. > > > >> How about extending "do:" to "do:times:" in scripting category? > > > > In theory that would be a possibility. However, tiles can only have one argument. There is only a single exception and that tile is special-cased in a gazillion places. > > > > - Bert - > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > etoys-dev mailing list > > etoys-dev(a)squeakland.org > > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev > > > > Could we not add a tick feature so you could ask a script to tick 10 > times for example ? > I have not looked at how much special cases that touches ;-) > Karl > > But the # of ticks (and the tick rate) are not "script settable" to the best of my knowledge, although this would be nice. > Kids may want to explore different repeat values where turn is set to 360/# repeats. > > Also, I have a project where kids have to guess a pattern (the pattern is generated from a set of 2-n random objects selected from a holder. The I need to check that pattern and have been using the Repeat Tile to check my pattern, setting the Repeat to the # of items in the pattern's Holder (See attached project, its a work in progress, but should demonstrate what I am trying to do). > > Seems like the main problem was that folks were confused about the way Repeat works, is this a bad thing? Don't get me wrong, but a little cognitive dissonance is good. If it hadn't been for this discussion, I never would have thought as much about the Etoys execution semantics. What we need is better educational materials, help and tutorials. The thing is that not even the most proficient Etoys users (in contrast to its creators) seem to "get it". I'm all for educating people but it's a fact that the repeat tile is an odd one. Now it's out there we can't take it back, but maybe putting it in the pen category gets people thinking "why the heck did they put this here?" > Ideally for each tile instead of just a simple balloon help, there could be a link to an Etoys Quick Guides Page, that can explain each tiles use in more detail along with examples and suggested uses. Perhaps even an Event Theater demonstration of a particular tiles use and mis-use. Yes, good idea. Just ASMOP ;) > Stephen > <Beep Beep Vroom Vroom.013.pr> Please do not send megabytes of attachments to the list. We're a global community, and not everyone has broadband. Same for list moderators: please do not let these overly large messages through. - Bert -

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etoys-dev April 2010