Hi, Tim, and all,
Attached is a fileout providing changes to the project-info dialog as requested for the benefit of the "showcase" on Squeakland.org.
Basically, the "project info" dialog now contains three "enumerated" items, "Subject", "Age", and "Region". These three are all governed by pop-ups (in local language) rather than by type-ins. The results are included in the project manifest.
Important notes:
(1) It is essential that this be filed in to an image updated at least through update 2246PolygonFix-kfr. If filed in to an earlier image, subsequently loading updates will clobber some of the changes provided here.
(2) Yoshiki is also modifying code in the EToyProjectDetailsMorph area in this same time-frame, so integration is likely to be necessary before our two fileouts are published.
(3) There are a few obvious rough edges which someone may wish to tweak, though I don't know of any show-stoppers. For example, this has always been an English-only dialog, but now that the field names are localized, there may be layout issues in some languages (once translations are available.) Also, for the pop-up fields, if they've never been set they show as blank, whereas once they've been set to "(none)" (equivalent to blank) they show the text "(none)". Probably we should always show "(none)" when values for these three popups have not been supplied. Also, since some of the fields are now type-in and some are pop-ups, perhaps some UI convention (slight color difference?) should be used to hint at whether a field functions as a type-in or a pop-up.
(4) This turned out to involve quite a bit of code, most of it written with a fever and at very late hours. So there's the distinct possibility of errors. I did test it briefly and it seemed to work as I expected. HOWEVER: it really needs verification by someone else.
(5) The Preamble (please read if planning to test or use):
-=------
Change Set: projectInfoPopUps-sw Date: 8 August 2009 Author: Scott Wallace
Changes to the project-info dialog, in support of new data desired for the 'showcase' on squeakland.org:
- 'Sub-Category' removed. - Subject, Age, and Region are added as pop-ups. - Choices for Subject, Age, Region popups, and corresponding codes, obtainable from web-site. - Project manifest now includes Age, Subject (category,) and Region info. The codes are strings of numbers, e.g. '554' as a Subject code means 'Language Arts' (look in #defaultAgeTriplets, #defaultSubjectTriplets, #defaultRegionTriplets on class-side of EToyProjectDetailsMorph.) - Names of fields are presented to the user in localized form. - Choices for values of pop-up fields are presented to the user in localized form.
Notes:
- There is support provided for obtaining up-to-date lists of the subject, age, and region alternatives from the web site (see EToyProjectDetailsMorph class updateTripletsFromWebSite) but it is not actually called at this point, out of concern for potential for long delay if connection to web site is slow.
- The *region* codes are at present *not* obtained from the web-site (even when the user explicitly calls #updateTripletsFromWebSite,) but rather a 'fake' set of regions, basically the continents, is provided. This is probably temporary. We have no reasonable way to confront the user with a pop-up showing 250 choices.
However, as per Tim's request, I have made it a point to include Antarctica in the region list. (Tim: look at method #defaultRegionTriplets for the current point of departure, if you want to adopt that, temporarily at least, on the web site. And/or of course change any defaults as needed.
-----------
Cheers,
-- Scott
Scott,
You're incredible! Thank you for this.
Tim
On Aug 8, 2009, at 4:55 AM, Scott Wallace wrote:
Hi, Tim, and all,
Attached is a fileout providing changes to the project-info dialog as requested for the benefit of the "showcase" on Squeakland.org.
Basically, the "project info" dialog now contains three "enumerated" items, "Subject", "Age", and "Region". These three are all governed by pop-ups (in local language) rather than by type-ins. The results are included in the project manifest.
Important notes:
(1) It is essential that this be filed in to an image updated at least through update 2246PolygonFix-kfr. If filed in to an earlier image, subsequently loading updates will clobber some of the changes provided here.
(2) Yoshiki is also modifying code in the EToyProjectDetailsMorph area in this same time-frame, so integration is likely to be necessary before our two fileouts are published.
(3) There are a few obvious rough edges which someone may wish to tweak, though I don't know of any show-stoppers. For example, this has always been an English-only dialog, but now that the field names are localized, there may be layout issues in some languages (once translations are available.) Also, for the pop-up fields, if they've never been set they show as blank, whereas once they've been set to "(none)" (equivalent to blank) they show the text "(none)". Probably we should always show "(none)" when values for these three popups have not been supplied. Also, since some of the fields are now type-in and some are pop-ups, perhaps some UI convention (slight color difference?) should be used to hint at whether a field functions as a type-in or a pop-up.
(4) This turned out to involve quite a bit of code, most of it written with a fever and at very late hours. So there's the distinct possibility of errors. I did test it briefly and it seemed to work as I expected. HOWEVER: it really needs verification by someone else.
(5) The Preamble (please read if planning to test or use):
-=------
Change Set: projectInfoPopUps-sw Date: 8 August 2009 Author: Scott Wallace
Changes to the project-info dialog, in support of new data desired for the 'showcase' on squeakland.org:
- 'Sub-Category' removed.
- Subject, Age, and Region are added as pop-ups.
- Choices for Subject, Age, Region popups, and corresponding codes,
obtainable from web-site.
- Project manifest now includes Age, Subject (category,) and Region
info. The codes are strings of numbers, e.g. '554' as a Subject code means 'Language Arts' (look in #defaultAgeTriplets, #defaultSubjectTriplets, #defaultRegionTriplets on class-side of EToyProjectDetailsMorph.)
- Names of fields are presented to the user in localized form.
- Choices for values of pop-up fields are presented to the user in
localized form.
Notes:
- There is support provided for obtaining up-to-date lists of the
subject, age, and region alternatives from the web site (see EToyProjectDetailsMorph class updateTripletsFromWebSite) but it is not actually called at this point, out of concern for potential for long delay if connection to web site is slow.
- The *region* codes are at present *not* obtained from the web-site
(even when the user explicitly calls #updateTripletsFromWebSite,) but rather a 'fake' set of regions, basically the continents, is provided. This is probably temporary. We have no reasonable way to confront the user with a pop-up showing 250 choices.
However, as per Tim's request, I have made it a point to include Antarctica in the region list. (Tim: look at method #defaultRegionTriplets for the current point of departure, if you want to adopt that, temporarily at least, on the web site. And/or of course change any defaults as needed.
Cheers,
-- Scott
<projectInfoPopUps-sw.7.cs.gz>
Good Morning, Maybe someone could send me a screen print of what we are talking about and I can answer my own questions? Sorry to ask about things so close to the release date but . . .
Is this pop-ups box only going to appear for people who are uploading projects to Squeakland? Or is it the one for every project stored on a local computer?
Will there still be a field for the name of the project in this new system? Will all the fields currently in the save dialogue box still be there and these are only additions. Are they mandatory, will a project save to a local computer with incomplete info?
Why is age being included? Is it to help sort what is of interest/appropriate for that age group and why would we do that, the visitor to the projects will decide what they want to look at no matter their age or the age of the author? I am picturing myself adding a project of my own and typing in my age
The Etoyslllinois site avoids any mention of age for two reasons, one is to keep private information just that Private. And secondly, we don't need to know the age of the author, as a matter of fact in practice it may mean some 7th graders wouldn't deign to look at sudoku if they knew the author was a first grader and yet the puzzle is good no matter the age.
Is the new Squeakland site going to have a Search function using these terms?
Kathleen July 5, 1946
---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 04:55:39 -0700 From: Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org Subject: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info To: Timothy Falconer timothy@squeakland.org Cc: etoys dev etoys-dev@squeakland.org
Hi, Tim, and all,
Attached is a fileout providing changes to the project-info dialog as requested for the benefit of the "showcase" on Squeakland.org.
Basically, the "project info" dialog now contains three "enumerated" items, "Subject", "Age", and "Region". These three are all governed by pop-ups (in local language) rather than by type-ins. The results are included in the project manifest.
Important notes:
(1) It is essential that this be filed in to an image updated at least through update 2246PolygonFix-kfr. If filed in to an earlier image, subsequently loading updates will clobber some of the changes provided here.
(2) Yoshiki is also modifying code in the EToyProjectDetailsMorph area in this same time-frame, so integration is likely to be necessary before our two fileouts are published.
(3) There are a few obvious rough edges which someone may wish to tweak, though I don't know of any show-stoppers. For example, this has always been an English-only dialog, but now that the field names are localized, there may be layout issues in some languages (once translations are available.) Also, for the pop-up fields, if they've never been set they show as blank, whereas once they've been set to "(none)" (equivalent to blank) they show the text "(none)". Probably we should always show "(none)" when values for these three popups have not been supplied. Also, since some of the fields are now type-in and some are pop-ups, perhaps some UI convention (slight color difference?) should be used to hint at whether a field functions as a type-in or a pop-up.
(4) This turned out to involve quite a bit of code, most of it written with a fever and at very late hours. So there's the distinct possibility of errors. I did test it briefly and it seemed to work as I expected. HOWEVER: it really needs verification by someone else.
(5) The Preamble (please read if planning to test or use):
-=------
Change Set: projectInfoPopUps-sw Date: 8 August 2009 Author: Scott Wallace
Changes to the project-info dialog, in support of new data desired for the 'showcase' on squeakland.org:
- 'Sub-Category' removed.
- Subject, Age, and Region are added as pop-ups.
- Choices for Subject, Age, Region popups, and corresponding codes,
obtainable from web-site.
- Project manifest now includes Age, Subject (category,) and Region
info. The codes are strings of numbers, e.g. '554' as a Subject code means 'Language Arts' (look in #defaultAgeTriplets, #defaultSubjectTriplets, #defaultRegionTriplets on class-side of EToyProjectDetailsMorph.)
- Names of fields are presented to the user in localized form.
- Choices for values of pop-up fields are presented to the user in
localized form.
Notes:
- There is support provided for obtaining up-to-date lists of the
subject, age, and region alternatives from the web site (see EToyProjectDetailsMorph class updateTripletsFromWebSite) but it is not actually called at this point, out of concern for potential for long delay if connection to web site is slow.
- The *region* codes are at present *not* obtained from the web-site
(even when the user explicitly calls #updateTripletsFromWebSite,) but rather a 'fake' set of regions, basically the continents, is provided. This is probably temporary. We have no reasonable way to confront the user with a pop-up showing 250 choices.
However, as per Tim's request, I have made it a point to include Antarctica in the region list. (Tim: look at method #defaultRegionTriplets for the current point of departure, if you want to adopt that, temporarily at least, on the web site. And/or of course change any defaults as needed.
Cheers,
-- Scott
projectInfoPopUps-sw.7.cs.gz (7k bytes) ________________ _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Aug 8, 2009, at 6:57 AM, kharness@illinois.edu <kharness@illinois.edu
wrote:
Good Morning, Maybe someone could send me a screen print of what we are talking about and I can answer my own questions? Sorry to ask about things so close to the release date but . . .
Hi, Kathleen!
FWIW here's an example of such a form; as you'll see, it isn't really much different from the current format. (I reduced the size here just to be more e-mail friendly; the actual size is the same as before):
In the above, the user has supplied the contents for the first three boxes (Project Name, Description, Author) and the "Tags" (né Key Words) by typing, and from Age and Region by choosing from pop-ups of choices.
The three pop-up items are Subject, Age, and Region. These look much the same as the other items, it's just that when you click in the box of one of these, instead of getting an insertion point for text- editing, you get a pop-up of explicit choices from which to choose.
--------
Is this pop-ups box only going to appear for people who are uploading projects to Squeakland? Or is it the one for every project stored on a local computer?
As I understand it this will be a general change to the project-info dialog.
Will there still be a field for the name of the project in this new system? Will all the fields currently in the save dialogue box still be there and these are only additions. Are they mandatory, will a project save to a local computer with incomplete info?
Project-name: still there. Old fields still there? well, sub- category was eliminated, and 'category' became 'Subject'. Mandatory: no. Okay to save with incomplete info: yes. (As for policy regarding missing data for projects submitted for the showcase, I don't know.)
Why is age being included? Is it to help sort what is of interest/ appropriate for that age group and why would we do that, the visitor to the projects will decide what they want to look at no matter their age or the age of the author? I am picturing myself adding a project of my own and typing in my age
The Etoyslllinois site avoids any mention of age for two reasons, one is to keep private information just that Private. And secondly, we don't need to know the age of the author, as a matter of fact in practice it may mean some 7th graders wouldn't deign to look at sudoku if they knew the author was a first grader and yet the puzzle is good no matter the age.
Is the new Squeakland site going to have a Search function using these terms?
Kathleen July 5, 1946
I'll leave these for Tim and Rita to respond to. But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered by the age pop-ups :-)
-- Scott
---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 04:55:39 -0700 From: Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org Subject: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info To: Timothy Falconer timothy@squeakland.org Cc: etoys dev etoys-dev@squeakland.org
Hi, Tim, and all,
Attached is a fileout providing changes to the project-info dialog as requested for the benefit of the "showcase" on Squeakland.org.
Basically, the "project info" dialog now contains three "enumerated" items, "Subject", "Age", and "Region". These three are all governed by pop-ups (in local language) rather than by type-ins. The results are included in the project manifest.
Important notes:
(1) It is essential that this be filed in to an image updated at least through update 2246PolygonFix-kfr. If filed in to an earlier image, subsequently loading updates will clobber some of the changes provided here.
(2) Yoshiki is also modifying code in the EToyProjectDetailsMorph area in this same time-frame, so integration is likely to be necessary before our two fileouts are published.
(3) There are a few obvious rough edges which someone may wish to tweak, though I don't know of any show-stoppers. For example, this has always been an English-only dialog, but now that the field names are localized, there may be layout issues in some languages (once translations are available.) Also, for the pop-up fields, if they've never been set they show as blank, whereas once they've been set to "(none)" (equivalent to blank) they show the text "(none)". Probably we should always show "(none)" when values for these three popups have not been supplied. Also, since some of the fields are now type-in and some are pop-ups, perhaps some UI convention (slight color difference?) should be used to hint at whether a field functions as a type-in or a pop-up.
(4) This turned out to involve quite a bit of code, most of it written with a fever and at very late hours. So there's the distinct possibility of errors. I did test it briefly and it seemed to work as I expected. HOWEVER: it really needs verification by someone else.
(5) The Preamble (please read if planning to test or use):
-=------
Change Set: projectInfoPopUps-sw Date: 8 August 2009 Author: Scott Wallace
Changes to the project-info dialog, in support of new data desired for the 'showcase' on squeakland.org:
- 'Sub-Category' removed.
- Subject, Age, and Region are added as pop-ups.
- Choices for Subject, Age, Region popups, and corresponding codes,
obtainable from web-site.
- Project manifest now includes Age, Subject (category,) and Region
info. The codes are strings of numbers, e.g. '554' as a Subject code means 'Language Arts' (look in #defaultAgeTriplets, #defaultSubjectTriplets, #defaultRegionTriplets on class-side of EToyProjectDetailsMorph.)
- Names of fields are presented to the user in localized form.
- Choices for values of pop-up fields are presented to the user in
localized form.
Notes:
- There is support provided for obtaining up-to-date lists of the
subject, age, and region alternatives from the web site (see EToyProjectDetailsMorph class updateTripletsFromWebSite) but it is not actually called at this point, out of concern for potential for long delay if connection to web site is slow.
- The *region* codes are at present *not* obtained from the web-site
(even when the user explicitly calls #updateTripletsFromWebSite,) but rather a 'fake' set of regions, basically the continents, is provided. This is probably temporary. We have no reasonable way to confront the user with a pop-up showing 250 choices.
However, as per Tim's request, I have made it a point to include Antarctica in the region list. (Tim: look at method #defaultRegionTriplets for the current point of departure, if you want to adopt that, temporarily at least, on the web site. And/or of course change any defaults as needed.
Cheers,
-- Scott
projectInfoPopUps-sw.7.cs.gz (7k bytes)
On 08.08.2009, at 20:16, Scott Wallace wrote:
But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered by the age pop-ups :-)
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
- Bert -
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen
---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 21:16:21 +0200 From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info To: etoys dev etoys-dev@squeakland.org Cc: "kharness@illinois.edu> <kharness@illinois.edu" kharness@illinois.edu
On 08.08.2009, at 20:16, Scott Wallace wrote:
But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered by the age pop-ups :-)
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
- Bert -
I'd be fine with leaving it out altogether. I'm just saying that *if* we add an age recommendation then it should cover everyone.
- Bert -
On 08.08.2009, at 22:45, kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen
---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 21:16:21 +0200 From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info To: etoys dev etoys-dev@squeakland.org Cc: "kharness@illinois.edu> <kharness@illinois.edu" <kharness@illinois.edu
On 08.08.2009, at 20:16, Scott Wallace wrote:
But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered by the age pop-ups :-)
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
- Bert -
Perhaps just call the age bracket "16 and older"?
Cheers, - Andreas
kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen
---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 21:16:21 +0200 From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info To: etoys dev etoys-dev@squeakland.org Cc: "kharness@illinois.edu> <kharness@illinois.edu" kharness@illinois.edu
On 08.08.2009, at 20:16, Scott Wallace wrote:
But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered by the age pop-ups :-)
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
I'm good with 16 and older ... but we'll ask the education team first.
On Aug 8, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
Perhaps just call the age bracket "16 and older"?
Cheers,
- Andreas
kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen ---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 21:16:21 +0200 From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Subject: Re: [etoys- dev] popups in project-info To: etoys dev <etoys- dev@squeakland.org> Cc: "kharness@illinois.edu> <kharness@illinois.edu" <kharness@illinois.edu
On 08.08.2009, at 20:16, Scott Wallace wrote:
But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered by the age pop-ups :-)
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Hi, This phrase gets very close to the "18 must be accompanied by parents" movie rating system, will it imply, mistakenly, that the content is adult/X rated.
We chose to tag some of the projects in EtoysIllinos with grade level's because they are aligned with grade level content standards. The rest of the projects stand as they are without grade or age tags because curiosity has no age limit and because we assume that people who click on a project they don't understand will either stay with it until they do understand or click out right away and go to some other project. Kathleen
---- Original message ----
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:13:07 -0400 From: Timothy Falconer timothy@squeakland.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info To: Andreas Raab andreas.raab@gmx.de Cc: kharness@illinois.edu, etoys dev etoys-dev@squeakland.org
I'm good with 16 and older ... but we'll ask the education team first.
On Aug 8, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
Perhaps just call the age bracket "16 and older"?
Cheers,
- Andreas
kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen ---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 21:16:21 +0200 From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Subject: Re: [etoys- dev] popups in project-info To: etoys dev <etoys- dev@squeakland.org> Cc: "kharness@illinois.edu> <kharness@illinois.edu" <kharness@illinois.edu
On 08.08.2009, at 20:16, Scott Wallace wrote:
But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered by the age pop-ups :-)
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Kathleen,
The problem will be hundreds of people choosing age/grade tags. Some will say "4th grade", others will say "3rd to 4th", others will say "fourth grade", others will say "9 to 10", etc. Using fixed categories solves this problem.
If I saw a drop-down labeled "Target Age" that had:
* five or younger * six to eight * nine to eleven * twelve to fifteen * sixteen and older
I personally wouldn't think the "sixteen and older" would indicate language/nudity/violence content.
Such content wouldn't pass the moderators anyway, and we can make it clear on the website that we don't allow such content.
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
Tim
On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:30 AM, kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Hi, This phrase gets very close to the "18 must be accompanied by parents" movie rating system, will it imply, mistakenly, that the content is adult/X rated.
We chose to tag some of the projects in EtoysIllinos with grade level's because they are aligned with grade level content standards. The rest of the projects stand as they are without grade or age tags because curiosity has no age limit and because we assume that people who click on a project they don't understand will either stay with it until they do understand or click out right away and go to some other project. Kathleen
---- Original message ----
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:13:07 -0400 From: Timothy Falconer timothy@squeakland.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info To: Andreas Raab andreas.raab@gmx.de Cc: kharness@illinois.edu, etoys dev etoys-dev@squeakland.org
I'm good with 16 and older ... but we'll ask the education team first.
On Aug 8, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
Perhaps just call the age bracket "16 and older"?
Cheers,
- Andreas
kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen ---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 21:16:21 +0200 From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Subject: Re: [etoys- dev] popups in project-info To: etoys dev <etoys- dev@squeakland.org> Cc: "kharness@illinois.edu> <kharness@illinois.edu" <kharness@illinois.edu
On 08.08.2009, at 20:16, Scott Wallace wrote:
But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered by the age pop-ups :-)
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Hi,
I think that there are too many categories.
If we think on content we could group by school years:
Elementary school Middle school High school
Or, if grouping by age I wouldn't use more than three categories, in this case I would say:
7 and younger 8 to 12 13 and older - when "technically" most kids are able to go through more complex abstractions
marta
-----Mensagem original----- De: etoys-dev-bounces@squeakland.org [mailto:etoys-dev-bounces@squeakland.org] Em nome de Timothy Falconer Enviada em: segunda-feira, 31 de agosto de 2009 12:41 Para: kharness@illinois.edu Cc: etoys dev Assunto: Re: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info
Kathleen,
The problem will be hundreds of people choosing age/grade tags. Some will say "4th grade", others will say "3rd to 4th", others will say "fourth grade", others will say "9 to 10", etc. Using fixed categories solves this problem.
If I saw a drop-down labeled "Target Age" that had:
* five or younger * six to eight * nine to eleven * twelve to fifteen * sixteen and older
I personally wouldn't think the "sixteen and older" would indicate language/nudity/violence content.
Such content wouldn't pass the moderators anyway, and we can make it clear on the website that we don't allow such content.
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
Tim
On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:30 AM, kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Hi, This phrase gets very close to the "18 must be accompanied by parents" movie rating system, will it imply, mistakenly, that the content is adult/X rated.
We chose to tag some of the projects in EtoysIllinos with grade level's because they are aligned with grade level content standards. The rest of the projects stand as they are without grade or age tags because curiosity has no age limit and because we assume that people who click on a project they don't understand will either stay with it until they do understand or click out right away and go to some other project. Kathleen
---- Original message ----
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:13:07 -0400 From: Timothy Falconer timothy@squeakland.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info To: Andreas Raab andreas.raab@gmx.de Cc: kharness@illinois.edu, etoys dev etoys-dev@squeakland.org
I'm good with 16 and older ... but we'll ask the education team first.
On Aug 8, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
Perhaps just call the age bracket "16 and older"?
Cheers,
- Andreas
kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen ---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 21:16:21 +0200 From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Subject: Re: [etoys- dev] popups in project-info To: etoys dev <etoys- dev@squeakland.org> Cc: "kharness@illinois.edu> <kharness@illinois.edu"
<kharness@illinois.edu
On 08.08.2009, at 20:16, Scott Wallace wrote:
But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered by the age pop-ups :-)
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
_______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Can someone find something on the web that compares what we call "elementary, middle, and high school" . . . ideally we could come up with three categories that fit the world.
Btw, my experiences in Haiti and Nicaragua suggest that ages are better.
We could go with "piaget time", not "typically done in school" time. Variations are incredible ... for example, Haiti vs US homeschoolers.
If there was an international standard grouping we could point to, that would be best.
On Aug 31, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Marta Voelcker wrote:
Hi,
I think that there are too many categories.
If we think on content we could group by school years:
Elementary school Middle school High school
Or, if grouping by age I wouldn't use more than three categories, in this case I would say:
7 and younger 8 to 12 13 and older - when "technically" most kids are able to go through more complex abstractions
marta
-----Mensagem original----- De: etoys-dev-bounces@squeakland.org [mailto:etoys-dev-bounces@squeakland.org] Em nome de Timothy Falconer Enviada em: segunda-feira, 31 de agosto de 2009 12:41 Para: kharness@illinois.edu Cc: etoys dev Assunto: Re: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info
Kathleen,
The problem will be hundreds of people choosing age/grade tags. Some will say "4th grade", others will say "3rd to 4th", others will say "fourth grade", others will say "9 to 10", etc. Using fixed categories solves this problem.
If I saw a drop-down labeled "Target Age" that had:
- five or younger
- six to eight
- nine to eleven
- twelve to fifteen
- sixteen and older
I personally wouldn't think the "sixteen and older" would indicate language/nudity/violence content.
Such content wouldn't pass the moderators anyway, and we can make it clear on the website that we don't allow such content.
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
Tim
On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:30 AM, kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Hi, This phrase gets very close to the "18 must be accompanied by parents" movie rating system, will it imply, mistakenly, that the content is adult/X rated.
We chose to tag some of the projects in EtoysIllinos with grade level's because they are aligned with grade level content standards. The rest of the projects stand as they are without grade or age tags because curiosity has no age limit and because we assume that people who click on a project they don't understand will either stay with it until they do understand or click out right away and go to some other project. Kathleen
---- Original message ----
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:13:07 -0400 From: Timothy Falconer timothy@squeakland.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] popups in project-info To: Andreas Raab andreas.raab@gmx.de Cc: kharness@illinois.edu, etoys dev etoys-dev@squeakland.org
I'm good with 16 and older ... but we'll ask the education team first.
On Aug 8, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
Perhaps just call the age bracket "16 and older"?
Cheers,
- Andreas
kharness@illinois.edu wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen ---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 21:16:21 +0200 From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Subject: Re: [etoys- dev] popups in project-info To: etoys dev <etoys- dev@squeakland.org> Cc: "kharness@illinois.edu> <kharness@illinois.edu"
<kharness@illinois.edu
>
On 08.08.2009, at 20:16, Scott Wallace wrote:
> But neither your age nor mine is within the age-ranges covered > by the age pop-ups :-)
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 9:10:39 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
I am wary of using ages in Etoy projects. It is tough on children who drop out and rejoin later. How about culturally neutral terms like "Levels" 1 thru 5 or multi-age groups like {primary, higher primary, secondary, higher secondary, graduate}.
Subbu
K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 9:10:39 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
I am wary of using ages in Etoy projects. It is tough on children who drop out and rejoin later. How about culturally neutral terms like "Levels" 1 thru 5 or multi-age groups like {primary, higher primary, secondary, higher secondary, graduate}.
I think that we are mixing up two things here:
- projects that are meant to help teachers getting started using Etoys in the classroom, where the age category would be helpful (I'm fine with grade, age or elementary/middle/highschool), and
- projects that will be uploaded by the broader community, which are meant to show what someone did, where we don't need any categories at all
I see two different structures for these different kinds of "showcases". The "official" showcase will be the one with categories, age groups etc., because we want to help teachers getting ideas. And these projects will be selected carefully. All the other projects belong to a "public" showcase, where we don't need these categories. Most of the students will not bother to think about subjects when uploading their work, and they don't have to, since categories are optional. We could even use tags for the public showcase, because this showcase serves another purpose, it is the possibility for everyone to share their work. We can pick up the best projects from the public showcase to put into the official one, "we" means all the people who apply to do that. So it wouldn't be necessary to categorize every project that goes to the showcase, the categorization could be done later, when a project gets selected. And of course there are projects which are explicitly developed to be on the official showcase, but I don't think that anyone here has a problem with categorizing these projects by age, because that clearly means "target age".
Greetings, Rita
Subbu
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:25 AM, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 9:10:39 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
I am wary of using ages in Etoy projects. It is tough on children who drop out and rejoin later. How about culturally neutral terms like "Levels" 1 thru 5 or multi-age groups like {primary, higher primary, secondary, higher secondary, graduate}.
I think that we are mixing up two things here:
- projects that are meant to help teachers getting started using
Etoys in the classroom, where the age category would be helpful (I'm fine with grade, age or elementary/middle/highschool), and
- projects that will be uploaded by the broader community, which are
meant to show what someone did, where we don't need any categories at all
I see two different structures for these different kinds of "showcases". The "official" showcase will be the one with categories, age groups etc., because we want to help teachers getting ideas. And these projects will be selected carefully. All the other projects belong to a "public" showcase, where we don't need these categories. Most of the students will not bother to think about subjects when uploading their work, and they don't have to, since categories are optional. We could even use tags for the public showcase, because this showcase serves another purpose, it is the possibility for everyone to share their work. We can pick up the best projects from the public showcase to put into the official one, "we" means all the people who apply to do that. So it wouldn't be necessary to categorize every project that goes to the showcase, the categorization could be done later, when a project gets selected. And of course there are projects which are explicitly developed to be on the official showcase, but I don't think that anyone here has a problem with categorizing these projects by age, because that clearly means "target age".
Greetings, Rita
A few thoughts from this . . .
First though, everyone should know that there are now two sections in the showcase that we're launching this month, the "featured" section, and the "public" section. Featured projects are hand-picked by the squeakland education team. Public projects are moderated for inappropriate content, but otherwise left alone. As Rita says, there will be 30 to 100 featured projects, and many thousand public projects.
1. I see the public showcase perhaps a bit differently, not just as a place for individual users to show off their work (as they do on the Scratch website), but as the place for teachers from around the world, such as Chris Gordon from USeIT, to show off their students work, and their own demonstrations, etc. My belief is that there will *MANY* projects that come from classes and homeschoolers that are appropriate for categorization. These will all start out in the public section. The Squeakland showcase is really focused on encouraging such projects, in contrast with the Scratch site which is more "look at what I did". Obviously we don't want to restrict "look at what I did", we want people to do what they want. But the tone I'm hoping to set is that of a worldwide educational resource, with many, many examples of teacher/student use, not just what we feature.
2. These categories are optional, and that the drop-down says that they're optional. No one has to pick target age, subject, or region if they don't want to.
3. We want to encourage people to choose these categories from the very beginning, so that when we promote a project from public to featured we don't have to guess what the author's intent was.
4. Let's at least see the new showcase before critiquing it. It's just about done, and we can change things as we go (aka, agile :)
Take care, Tim
On 01.09.2009, at 10:54, Timothy Falconer wrote:
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:25 AM, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 9:10:39 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
I am wary of using ages in Etoy projects. It is tough on children who drop out and rejoin later. How about culturally neutral terms like "Levels" 1 thru 5 or multi-age groups like {primary, higher primary, secondary, higher secondary, graduate}.
I think that we are mixing up two things here:
- projects that are meant to help teachers getting started using
Etoys in the classroom, where the age category would be helpful (I'm fine with grade, age or elementary/middle/highschool), and
- projects that will be uploaded by the broader community, which
are meant to show what someone did, where we don't need any categories at all
I see two different structures for these different kinds of "showcases". The "official" showcase will be the one with categories, age groups etc., because we want to help teachers getting ideas. And these projects will be selected carefully. All the other projects belong to a "public" showcase, where we don't need these categories. Most of the students will not bother to think about subjects when uploading their work, and they don't have to, since categories are optional. We could even use tags for the public showcase, because this showcase serves another purpose, it is the possibility for everyone to share their work. We can pick up the best projects from the public showcase to put into the official one, "we" means all the people who apply to do that. So it wouldn't be necessary to categorize every project that goes to the showcase, the categorization could be done later, when a project gets selected. And of course there are projects which are explicitly developed to be on the official showcase, but I don't think that anyone here has a problem with categorizing these projects by age, because that clearly means "target age".
Greetings, Rita
A few thoughts from this . . .
First though, everyone should know that there are now two sections in the showcase that we're launching this month, the "featured" section, and the "public" section. Featured projects are hand- picked by the squeakland education team. Public projects are moderated for inappropriate content, but otherwise left alone. As Rita says, there will be 30 to 100 featured projects, and many thousand public projects.
- I see the public showcase perhaps a bit differently, not just as
a place for individual users to show off their work (as they do on the Scratch website), but as the place for teachers from around the world, such as Chris Gordon from USeIT, to show off their students work, and their own demonstrations, etc. My belief is that there will *MANY* projects that come from classes and homeschoolers that are appropriate for categorization. These will all start out in the public section. The Squeakland showcase is really focused on encouraging such projects, in contrast with the Scratch site which is more "look at what I did". Obviously we don't want to restrict "look at what I did", we want people to do what they want. But the tone I'm hoping to set is that of a worldwide educational resource, with many, many examples of teacher/student use, not just what we feature.
- These categories are optional, and that the drop-down says that
they're optional. No one has to pick target age, subject, or region if they don't want to.
- We want to encourage people to choose these categories from the
very beginning, so that when we promote a project from public to featured we don't have to guess what the author's intent was.
- Let's at least see the new showcase before critiquing it. It's
just about done, and we can change things as we go (aka, agile :)
Take care, Tim
1) "Public Showcase" is a misnomer. We want a "public" repository for everyone to share projects, *and* a "showcase" with selected content.
4) having two sites with different designs and contents is a fundamentally different user experience than one "showcase" with a "public" toggle. Sure it can be implemented as such behind the scenes, but the public sharing site needs to be clearly separated, and hence visually different from the edited site.
- Bert -
On Sep 1, 2009, at 6:42 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On 01.09.2009, at 10:54, Timothy Falconer wrote:
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:25 AM, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 9:10:39 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
I am wary of using ages in Etoy projects. It is tough on children who drop out and rejoin later. How about culturally neutral terms like "Levels" 1 thru 5 or multi-age groups like {primary, higher primary, secondary, higher secondary, graduate}.
I think that we are mixing up two things here:
- projects that are meant to help teachers getting started using
Etoys in the classroom, where the age category would be helpful (I'm fine with grade, age or elementary/middle/highschool), and
- projects that will be uploaded by the broader community, which
are meant to show what someone did, where we don't need any categories at all
I see two different structures for these different kinds of "showcases". The "official" showcase will be the one with categories, age groups etc., because we want to help teachers getting ideas. And these projects will be selected carefully. All the other projects belong to a "public" showcase, where we don't need these categories. Most of the students will not bother to think about subjects when uploading their work, and they don't have to, since categories are optional. We could even use tags for the public showcase, because this showcase serves another purpose, it is the possibility for everyone to share their work. We can pick up the best projects from the public showcase to put into the official one, "we" means all the people who apply to do that. So it wouldn't be necessary to categorize every project that goes to the showcase, the categorization could be done later, when a project gets selected. And of course there are projects which are explicitly developed to be on the official showcase, but I don't think that anyone here has a problem with categorizing these projects by age, because that clearly means "target age".
Greetings, Rita
A few thoughts from this . . .
First though, everyone should know that there are now two sections in the showcase that we're launching this month, the "featured" section, and the "public" section. Featured projects are hand- picked by the squeakland education team. Public projects are moderated for inappropriate content, but otherwise left alone. As Rita says, there will be 30 to 100 featured projects, and many thousand public projects.
- I see the public showcase perhaps a bit differently, not just as
a place for individual users to show off their work (as they do on the Scratch website), but as the place for teachers from around the world, such as Chris Gordon from USeIT, to show off their students work, and their own demonstrations, etc. My belief is that there will *MANY* projects that come from classes and homeschoolers that are appropriate for categorization. These will all start out in the public section. The Squeakland showcase is really focused on encouraging such projects, in contrast with the Scratch site which is more "look at what I did". Obviously we don't want to restrict "look at what I did", we want people to do what they want. But the tone I'm hoping to set is that of a worldwide educational resource, with many, many examples of teacher/student use, not just what we feature.
- These categories are optional, and that the drop-down says that
they're optional. No one has to pick target age, subject, or region if they don't want to.
- We want to encourage people to choose these categories from the
very beginning, so that when we promote a project from public to featured we don't have to guess what the author's intent was.
- Let's at least see the new showcase before critiquing it. It's
just about done, and we can change things as we go (aka, agile :)
Take care, Tim
- "Public Showcase" is a misnomer. We want a "public" repository
for everyone to share projects, *and* a "showcase" with selected content.
That's one way of looking at it. Showcase is a place you put your best stuff. I think you & Rita are thinking the "you" is Squeakland. I'm thinking the "you" is everyone.
I've also thought about changing the name for "showcase" to "gallery" or something else, but my current thinking is that we want to encourage this:
http://squeakland.org/images/illo-showcase.png
We want the world to show the stuff that they're proud to show, just as a child puts a drawing on the refrigerator or a teacher puts a drawing on the classroom wall. We want them to feel more special about this than sharing to YouTube.
I've used the term "showcase" with perhaps two hundred people or more from different cultures in the last year. Most seem fine with the term, and eager to contribute.
Also, in my experience, the people who care most passionately about semantics are those inside an organization . . . the vast majority doesn't think that much about it . . . they know what to expect when they click Showcase, and if there's momentary confusion about featured vs public, the one-line text on the section page (and at the top of each page) clears up the distinction immediately.
- having two sites with different designs and contents is a
fundamentally different user experience than one "showcase" with a "public" toggle. Sure it can be implemented as such behind the scenes, but the public sharing site needs to be clearly separated, and hence visually different from the edited site.
Rita has made this point several times, and I just don't see it. How is clicking on "featured" any different from clicking on "top rated" on a site like Scratch or any other gallery site?
Why specifically does there need to be a different look and user experience?
On 2009-09-01 08:25, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 9:10:39 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
I am wary of using ages in Etoy projects. It is tough on children who drop out and rejoin later. How about culturally neutral terms like "Levels" 1 thru 5 or multi-age groups like {primary, higher primary, secondary, higher secondary, graduate}.
I think that we are mixing up two things here:
- projects that are meant to help teachers getting started using Etoys
in the classroom, where the age category would be helpful (I'm fine with grade, age or elementary/middle/highschool), and
- projects that will be uploaded by the broader community, which are
meant to show what someone did, where we don't need any categories at all
I see two different structures for these different kinds of "showcases". The "official" showcase will be the one with categories, age groups etc., because we want to help teachers getting ideas. And these projects will be selected carefully. All the other projects belong to a "public" showcase, where we don't need these categories. Most of the students will not bother to think about subjects when uploading their work, and they don't have to, since categories are optional. We could even use tags for the public showcase, because this showcase serves another purpose, it is the possibility for everyone to share their work. We can pick up the best projects from the public showcase to put into the official one, "we" means all the people who apply to do that. So it wouldn't be necessary to categorize every project that goes to the showcase, the categorization could be done later, when a project gets selected. And of course there are projects which are explicitly developed to be on the official showcase, but I don't think that anyone here has a problem with categorizing these projects by age, because that clearly means "target age".
Greetings, Rita
Yes, it would be nice to be able tag projects once they have been uploaded. Often the project publisher can't anticipate the use/significance of the project for another user.
Karl
Subbu
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Sep 1, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Karl Ramberg wrote:
On 2009-09-01 08:25, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 9:10:39 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
What does the larger group think? Would you see "sixteen and older" in the drop-down as saying "put your adults-only stuff here"?
I am wary of using ages in Etoy projects. It is tough on children who drop out and rejoin later. How about culturally neutral terms like "Levels" 1 thru 5 or multi-age groups like {primary, higher primary, secondary, higher secondary, graduate}.
I think that we are mixing up two things here:
- projects that are meant to help teachers getting started using
Etoys in the classroom, where the age category would be helpful (I'm fine with grade, age or elementary/middle/highschool), and
- projects that will be uploaded by the broader community, which
are meant to show what someone did, where we don't need any categories at all
I see two different structures for these different kinds of "showcases". The "official" showcase will be the one with categories, age groups etc., because we want to help teachers getting ideas. And these projects will be selected carefully. All the other projects belong to a "public" showcase, where we don't need these categories. Most of the students will not bother to think about subjects when uploading their work, and they don't have to, since categories are optional. We could even use tags for the public showcase, because this showcase serves another purpose, it is the possibility for everyone to share their work. We can pick up the best projects from the public showcase to put into the official one, "we" means all the people who apply to do that. So it wouldn't be necessary to categorize every project that goes to the showcase, the categorization could be done later, when a project gets selected. And of course there are projects which are explicitly developed to be on the official showcase, but I don't think that anyone here has a problem with categorizing these projects by age, because that clearly means "target age".
Greetings, Rita
Yes, it would be nice to be able tag projects once they have been uploaded. Often the project publisher can't anticipate the use/ significance of the project for another user.
Karl
The new showcase allows you to add tags both within Etoys and on the website, though at this point it only allows the original author to do it.
My plan was to add public tagging when we add comment moderation. We need tag moderation too (see Scratch for tag abuse :)
On Aug 8, 2009, at 4:45 PM, kharness@illinois.edu <kharness@illinois.edu
wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen
I really do think "target age" is useful, particularly as we try to convince teachers to use Etoys in the classroom . . . any time we can save them as they look for relevant examples will help increase Etoys usage.
Also, ranking will be a factor here as well. The education team will rank projects in the featured section, so the exceptional projects can stand out. Being able to see the best projects for ages 8 to 12 is very useful.
Tim
At Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:17:15 -0400, Timothy Falconer wrote:
On Aug 8, 2009, at 4:45 PM, kharness@illinois.edu <kharness@illinois.edu
wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen
I really do think "target age" is useful, particularly as we try to convince teachers to use Etoys in the classroom . . . any time we can save them as they look for relevant examples will help increase Etoys usage.
The usefulness of the target age is one thing, but pre-set list of ages is another. If you say, "8 to 12", or "9 to 11", it means different things from a region to another with different school systems. We can't dictate globally there, I think. And some put the target age based on the relevance with the school curriculum, but others put some other criteria. Some want to put the grade number but some want to put the age.
So, having the age part is ok but probably better to be a free-form field.
Just my $0.02.
-- Yoshiki
On Aug 31, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
At Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:17:15 -0400, Timothy Falconer wrote:
On Aug 8, 2009, at 4:45 PM, kharness@illinois.edu <kharness@illinois.edu
wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen
I really do think "target age" is useful, particularly as we try to convince teachers to use Etoys in the classroom . . . any time we can save them as they look for relevant examples will help increase Etoys usage.
The usefulness of the target age is one thing, but pre-set list of ages is another. If you say, "8 to 12", or "9 to 11", it means different things from a region to another with different school systems. We can't dictate globally there, I think. And some put the target age based on the relevance with the school curriculum, but others put some other criteria. Some want to put the grade number but some want to put the age.
So, having the age part is ok but probably better to be a free-form field.
Just my $0.02.
Having it free-form, or tag-based, will make it nearly impossible to usefully group, which will be a problem for people looking for relevant content.
Think ... 1000 projects and I have twenty minutes to try 5 projects ... I'm a 3rd grade teacher in the united states wondering how I could include Etoys throughout my school day.
500 different ways of saying 3rd grade will all but prevent that person from finding 5 great projects in 20 minutes.
You might say, "well, they need to spend more time", but THEY WON'T.
This is the point ... get them to the most relevant stuff (to them) as quickly as possible, or they won't use Etoys. They won't get to the "ah ha! This is for me" moment.
My curriculum templates idea in the original squeakland.org proposal would help solve this, but in until then, the ability to say "my kids are 9 and 10, show me what they might learn" is invaluable.
This isn't about being official, this is about saving someone time (while trying not to offend other cultures too much.)
There's got to be some international standards body that could be helpful here. International Baccalaureate?
Tim
At Mon, 31 Aug 2009 13:15:40 -0400, Timothy Falconer wrote:
The usefulness of the target age is one thing, but pre-set list of ages is another. If you say, "8 to 12", or "9 to 11", it means different things from a region to another with different school systems. We can't dictate globally there, I think. And some put the target age based on the relevance with the school curriculum, but others put some other criteria. Some want to put the grade number but some want to put the age.
So, having the age part is ok but probably better to be a free-form field.
Just my $0.02.
Having it free-form, or tag-based, will make it nearly impossible to usefully group, which will be a problem for people looking for relevant content.
Think ... 1000 projects and I have twenty minutes to try 5 projects ... I'm a 3rd grade teacher in the united states wondering how I could include Etoys throughout my school day.
Sure. Are you saying that I don't understand this kind of constraint?
500 different ways of saying 3rd grade will all but prevent that person from finding 5 great projects in 20 minutes.
But if you are a 3rd grade teacher in the US and looking for projects, you are effectively saying that there should be a better tagging mechanism than pre-set age groups.
BTW, Kathleen is a teacher and she described what she does. What is your comment on that?
You might say, "well, they need to spend more time", but THEY WON'T.
I wouldn't *just* say that.
-- Yoshiki
On Aug 31, 2009, at 1:24 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
At Mon, 31 Aug 2009 13:15:40 -0400, Timothy Falconer wrote:
The usefulness of the target age is one thing, but pre-set list of ages is another. If you say, "8 to 12", or "9 to 11", it means different things from a region to another with different school systems. We can't dictate globally there, I think. And some put the target age based on the relevance with the school curriculum, but others put some other criteria. Some want to put the grade number but some want to put the age.
So, having the age part is ok but probably better to be a free-form field.
Just my $0.02.
Having it free-form, or tag-based, will make it nearly impossible to usefully group, which will be a problem for people looking for relevant content.
Think ... 1000 projects and I have twenty minutes to try 5 projects ... I'm a 3rd grade teacher in the united states wondering how I could include Etoys throughout my school day.
Sure. Are you saying that I don't understand this kind of constraint?
Serenity comes from mentally prepending, "It is my opinion that" and adding "what do you think?" (even with cherlin :)
Upset comes from prepending "you personally just don't get it, dude, here's why" :)
I see comments to lists are both to the individual person and the larger group. Often responses aren't to the poster, but also to the series of posters before that poster, and to anticipate further discussion.
500 different ways of saying 3rd grade will all but prevent that person from finding 5 great projects in 20 minutes.
But if you are a 3rd grade teacher in the US and looking for projects, you are effectively saying that there should be a better tagging mechanism than pre-set age groups.
Better tagging structure = category hierarchy chosen by the education team, which is what we discussed (as a team) at length. (The idea of categories, not the specific categories)
BTW, Kathleen is a teacher and she described what she does. What is your comment on that?
She's one teacher, with an important voice. My comment was my response to her, along with asking others to chime in as well.
I do know first hand that many teachers find it hard to find appropriate content on sites like Scratch & others. The ones we hear from are the "true believers" who keep with it. The ones we don't hear from are the "not for me" crowd who stop looking and stay with Imagination Station and Reader Rabbit.
You might say, "well, they need to spend more time", but THEY WON'T.
I wouldn't *just* say that.
-- Yoshiki
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 10:45:40 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
Think ... 1000 projects and I have twenty minutes to try 5 projects ... I'm a 3rd grade teacher in the united states wondering how I could include Etoys throughout my school day.
500 different ways of saying 3rd grade will all but prevent that person from finding 5 great projects in 20 minutes.
This is a search problem that won't be solved with just tagging. Projects are not precisely structured records like database records. They are free form documents.
A few weeks back Yoshiki pointed that he found "EToysLauncher openPanel" slow because he had a few hundred projects in a folder. The method opened each project file to extract a thumbnail and collect them in a book!
What is needed to tackle such problem is an auto-indexer and search tool, say ProjectIndexMorph, that will index project collections in a folder (server) and display their thumbnails in a holder or book. It can have a filter field to narrow down displayed thumbnails and a refresh method to update the index when projects are updated (this can also be done automatically).
Now, teachers can search for projects that have, say "velocity", somewhere in their text morphs or meta-data. It will take no more than a minute to search 1000 projects.
Subbu
On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:13 PM, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 10:45:40 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
Think ... 1000 projects and I have twenty minutes to try 5 projects ... I'm a 3rd grade teacher in the united states wondering how I could include Etoys throughout my school day.
500 different ways of saying 3rd grade will all but prevent that person from finding 5 great projects in 20 minutes.
This is a search problem that won't be solved with just tagging. Projects are not precisely structured records like database records. They are free form documents.
A few weeks back Yoshiki pointed that he found "EToysLauncher openPanel" slow because he had a few hundred projects in a folder. The method opened each project file to extract a thumbnail and collect them in a book!
What is needed to tackle such problem is an auto-indexer and search tool, say ProjectIndexMorph, that will index project collections in a folder (server) and display their thumbnails in a holder or book. It can have a filter field to narrow down displayed thumbnails and a refresh method to update the index when projects are updated (this can also be done automatically).
Now, teachers can search for projects that have, say "velocity", somewhere in their text morphs or meta-data. It will take no more than a minute to search 1000 projects.
Subbu
We'll have a search box in the showcase, which will search titles, description text, author, categories, tags, etc (info in the keep box), as a quick way to find things.
Didn't think of searching the contents of projects yet, though, which might be nice, or not so nice, not sure which :)
Remember, this is all for website use, not for use within Etoys, at least for now. Within Etoys will be able to browse the folder hierarchy, but these are not yet exposed as categories, etc, there.
On 01.09.2009, at 05:13, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 10:45:40 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
Think ... 1000 projects and I have twenty minutes to try 5 projects ... I'm a 3rd grade teacher in the united states wondering how I could include Etoys throughout my school day.
500 different ways of saying 3rd grade will all but prevent that person from finding 5 great projects in 20 minutes.
This is a search problem that won't be solved with just tagging. Projects are not precisely structured records like database records. They are free form documents.
A few weeks back Yoshiki pointed that he found "EToysLauncher openPanel" slow because he had a few hundred projects in a folder. The method opened each project file to extract a thumbnail and collect them in a book!
What is needed to tackle such problem is an auto-indexer and search tool, say ProjectIndexMorph, that will index project collections in a folder (server) and display their thumbnails in a holder or book. It can have a filter field to narrow down displayed thumbnails and a refresh method to update the index when projects are updated (this can also be done automatically).
Now, teachers can search for projects that have, say "velocity", somewhere in their text morphs or meta-data. It will take no more than a minute to search 1000 projects.
Subbu
In fact I proposed to add this to the project on save before:
http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-145
Makes indexing quite a bit simpler.
- Bert -
On Sep 1, 2009, at 6:27 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On 01.09.2009, at 05:13, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Monday 31 Aug 2009 10:45:40 pm Timothy Falconer wrote:
Think ... 1000 projects and I have twenty minutes to try 5 projects ... I'm a 3rd grade teacher in the united states wondering how I could include Etoys throughout my school day.
500 different ways of saying 3rd grade will all but prevent that person from finding 5 great projects in 20 minutes.
This is a search problem that won't be solved with just tagging. Projects are not precisely structured records like database records. They are free form documents.
A few weeks back Yoshiki pointed that he found "EToysLauncher openPanel" slow because he had a few hundred projects in a folder. The method opened each project file to extract a thumbnail and collect them in a book!
What is needed to tackle such problem is an auto-indexer and search tool, say ProjectIndexMorph, that will index project collections in a folder (server) and display their thumbnails in a holder or book. It can have a filter field to narrow down displayed thumbnails and a refresh method to update the index when projects are updated (this can also be done automatically).
Now, teachers can search for projects that have, say "velocity", somewhere in their text morphs or meta-data. It will take no more than a minute to search 1000 projects.
Subbu
In fact I proposed to add this to the project on save before:
http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-145
Makes indexing quite a bit simpler.
- Bert -
If someone does this, I'll add it to the website search.
Timothy Falconer wrote:
On Aug 31, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
At Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:17:15 -0400, Timothy Falconer wrote:
On Aug 8, 2009, at 4:45 PM, kharness@illinois.edu <kharness@illinois.edu
wrote:
Bert, Will the above 18 label carry connotations of the movie ratings: adult content? These ratings may not be in use world wide, I don't know. I think age is adding an unnecessary and complicating bit of information. Kathleen
I really do think "target age" is useful, particularly as we try to convince teachers to use Etoys in the classroom . . . any time we can save them as they look for relevant examples will help increase Etoys usage.
The usefulness of the target age is one thing, but pre-set list of ages is another. If you say, "8 to 12", or "9 to 11", it means different things from a region to another with different school systems. We can't dictate globally there, I think. And some put the target age based on the relevance with the school curriculum, but others put some other criteria. Some want to put the grade number but some want to put the age.
So, having the age part is ok but probably better to be a free-form field.
Just my $0.02.
Having it free-form, or tag-based, will make it nearly impossible to usefully group, which will be a problem for people looking for relevant content.
Think ... 1000 projects and I have twenty minutes to try 5 projects ... I'm a 3rd grade teacher in the united states wondering how I could include Etoys throughout my school day.
I never would ask teachers to look where the 1000 projects are. They should be able to look at the showcase with pre-selected projects. *We* will show them what will best suit them. But that doesn't mean we have to categorize every single project. We will choose these projects and categorize it.
500 different ways of saying 3rd grade will all but prevent that person from finding 5 great projects in 20 minutes.
You might say, "well, they need to spend more time", but THEY WON'T.
This is the point ... get them to the most relevant stuff (to them) as quickly as possible, or they won't use Etoys. They won't get to the "ah ha! This is for me" moment.
Yes, and that would be the official showcase on the website, where they will not find 100s of projects but maybe 20 or 30 or whatever we think is good for the start. They can explore all the other projects later.
Rita
My curriculum templates idea in the original squeakland.org proposal would help solve this, but in until then, the ability to say "my kids are 9 and 10, show me what they might learn" is invaluable.
This isn't about being official, this is about saving someone time (while trying not to offend other cultures too much.)
There's got to be some international standards body that could be helpful here. International Baccalaureate?
Tim
On Sunday 09 Aug 2009 12:46:21 am Bert Freudenberg wrote:
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
I would vote for dropping Age and Region for two reasons. a) not strictly needed for every project. b) ambiguous. Completed age? approximate age? age when the project was started or when last updated? does region refer to current location or native location?
These extraneous fields makes the dialog large and may put off young learners. Where needed, local teachers can guide the students to add them in tags
Subbu
On Aug 9, 2009, at 6:49 AM, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Sunday 09 Aug 2009 12:46:21 am Bert Freudenberg wrote:
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
I would vote for dropping Age and Region for two reasons. a) not strictly needed for every project. b) ambiguous. Completed age? approximate age? age when the project was started or when last updated? does region refer to current location or native location?
These extraneous fields makes the dialog large and may put off young learners. Where needed, local teachers can guide the students to add them in tags
We don't want ages in tags, because we'll end up with 500 variations of the same thing, making it next to impossible to search for a particular age.
See Scratch :)
On 08/09/2009 03:49 AM, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Sunday 09 Aug 2009 12:46:21 am Bert Freudenberg wrote:
IMHO "Age" should be "Target Age", and it should cover everybody. This means we need two more choices: "under 6" and "above 18". And there needs to be a way to select multiple age groups, or at least add an "everyone" choice.
I would vote for dropping Age and Region for two reasons. a) not strictly needed for every project. b) ambiguous. Completed age? approximate age? age when the project was started or when last updated? does region refer to current location or native location?
These extraneous fields makes the dialog large and may put off young learners. Where needed, local teachers can guide the students to add them in tags
Subbu
I agree with Subbu. I don't see how age tag can be useful in Colombia, where the range is flexible for people in the School. Something like the grade could be useful, but still we don't have a strict curriculum per grade, just broad achievements on each period of formation. A external tag like the age imposed up-down in the metadata of the project is not something useful. In fact what I think is that we need some kind of emergent ontology/taxonomy from a folksonomy that is more localized to the curriculum of the teachers if the intention is to serve them, so this tags should be different for different places of the world and the common tags (the ones which are not discussed here) should be the only predefined. People should be able to define and explain additional tags that can work for their curriculum/culture better.
Cheers,
Offray
On Aug 8, 2009, at 9:57 AM, kharness@illinois.edu <kharness@illinois.edu
wrote:
Good Morning, Maybe someone could send me a screen print of what we are talking about and I can answer my own questions? Sorry to ask about things so close to the release date but . . .
Is this pop-ups box only going to appear for people who are uploading projects to Squeakland? Or is it the one for every project stored on a local computer?
Will there still be a field for the name of the project in this new system? Will all the fields currently in the save dialogue box still be there and these are only additions. Are they mandatory, will a project save to a local computer with incomplete info?
Why is age being included? Is it to help sort what is of interest/ appropriate for that age group and why would we do that, the visitor to the projects will decide what they want to look at no matter their age or the age of the author? I am picturing myself adding a project of my own and typing in my age
The Etoyslllinois site avoids any mention of age for two reasons, one is to keep private information just that Private. And secondly, we don't need to know the age of the author, as a matter of fact in practice it may mean some 7th graders wouldn't deign to look at sudoku if they knew the author was a first grader and yet the puzzle is good no matter the age.
Just in case this got missed in other emails, "age" refers to "target age", not "age of the author", just as the "by age" category in the current squeakland showcase.
The intent is to help teachers and parents find appropriate material for their children without using regional level names (secondary school, middle school, etc).
etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Andreas Raab -
Bert Freudenberg -
K. K. Subramaniam -
Karl Ramberg -
kharness＠illinois.edu -
Marta Voelcker -
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas -
Rita Freudenberg -
Scott Wallace -
Timothy Falconer -
Yoshiki Ohshima